Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[InvestigateTruth]

Can your God "improve their soul" and "soften the heart" without inflicting suffering?

- if no, then your God is not omnipotent.

- if yes, then your God chose to inflict the suffering for suffering's sake.

See, you are again asking for a miracle. Something unrealistic.
It is like saying can your God plant a seed in Hard soil? The soil of heart must be first soften, so the seeds of wisdom of God maybe planted, and fruits of love of God may grow from the tree of the soul.
I am just using analogies from Bahai scriptures.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

See, you are again asking for a miracle. Something unrealistic.

Are you even capable of giving a straight answer to a question?

It is like saying can your God plant a seed in Hard soil? The soil of heart must be first soften, so the seeds of wisdom of God maybe planted, and fruits of love of God may grow from the tree of the soul.
I am just using analogies from Bahai scriptures.

So your answer is "no, God can't 'soften the heart' without inflicting suffering"?

BTW: the analogy doesn't really excuse God when we remember that, in the analogy, God also designed the soil.

 

[Ella S.]

Theologically, it tracks.

That god is transcendent and considered separate from nature and is therefore not bound by its rules. Of course that god must do miracles and break the laws of nature - it is not limited by them. Violating natural law would be part of that god's own nature.

Contrast this with my own tradition, where gods are fully immanent and synonymous with nature. There, the gods are bound by its rules and miracles that break natural law do not occur.

This is the case in Stoicism as well. The "gods" are just facets of nature. Jupiter, who is referred to as God, is identical with the natural universe in a pantheistic sense. None of them are really supernatural persons, because Stoicism ultimately affirms materialism.

Although they did have an odd natural philosophy that approximates supernaturalism in some ways, like affirming the utility of divination, petitionary prayer, and sacrifice, none of which I believe in. So they're still vaguely polytheistic and supernaturalist, whereas I am a gnostic atheist and metaphysical naturalist, and that's one of the ways I differ from the ancient Stoics.

Materialism was a precursor to modern metaphysical naturalism and the importance they placed on logic was a precursor to modern critical thinking and scientific skepticism, though, so I feel like I'm still following their spirit and have merely updated it according to today's philosophical breakthroughs. They highly influenced Spinoza, who influenced Einstein, who influenced Sagan and Hawking, so I don't think I'm too far off there.

 

[SDavis]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

Can God actually break what man calls the laws of nature? God put all things in motion and at his word all things will stay in motion until he decides to do something differently.

God did miracles in the past and those miracles have been spoken of and passed down through history, that is why people seek miraculous events.

Generally when a miracle doesn't happen and is prayed for it is determined that there was an error somewhere, lack of faith. Most never seem to realize or admit that it takes true repentance / clean hearts which is possibly and probably the reasons.

If my people who are called by my name, show humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and forgive their sins and heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Because If there is an omnipotent God, then He must be able to show a Miraculous Sign, that immediately convinces everyone without a shadow of doubt, but then that means no one has the choice to reject. It will take away mankind's free will to believe or disbelieve.

No it doesn’t. There will always be idiots and contrarians who will deny what is in front of them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No it doesn’t. There will always be idiots and contrarians who will deny what is in front of them.

Do you think, what happens if a man takes another to the grave of his grandfather, the same place that he had seen him with his own eyes was buried 10 years ago, and then calls him, and then he comes out of grave, for real!!. How would the man react... just try to imagine that for real to get a sense of it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Purpose of punishment is not to merely make anyone to suffer, but to soften the hearts. It is to improve their soul.

Now, I don’t have a green thumb, but if a plant needs improvement, killing it is counterproductive.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

When I was briefly a practicing member of the Baha'i Faith, I could tell that I was in essence 'polishing my soul' with Baha'u'llah's words. My demeanor changed, my words were softer and kinder and my soul was filled with the essence of your prophet. The illusion of change happened to me and I wasn't expecting to change so differently because I prayed and studied His words. In many ways I did view this change of attitude a miracle, but the non-religious side of myself isn't really that different or worse.

I consider practicing and following a religion to 'polish the soul' as it is. Some people have a really awful natural demeanor and their lives change when they become religious, and for other people, like myself, it only slightly enhances the original person's lifestyle. I was a better person when I practiced the Baha'i Faith, but I wasn't really myself. I could tell that I was acting certain behaviors not because I really wanted to do it, but because I was forcing myself into a position which I wanted to act differently.

Prophets, just like everybody else, lives and dies to help other people. If they weren't natural, they couldn't be of the natural world, but if they weren't divine, nobody would take their words seriously. There are still yet things that science cannot explain, the gaps of which are filled by religion. Of course, every year that passes we get closer and closer to understanding the whole without religion, but as it is currently good religion enforces good science and good science reinforces good religion.

Miracles happen everyday, yet, now that they are explained through science, they are considered natural and therefore don't need further investigation. I suspect that no matter which religion I had practiced I would be polishing my soul as a result from it. My standards are already quite high when it comes to engaging discussion with other people, so it wasn't necessarily a miracle when it improved just slightly when I heeded the words of Baha'u'llah. Yet still, I try my best to allow others to see the best of me, and the best of my opinions. I am meticulous with my words.

There's only so much that can happen from one person, or even a group a likeminded individuals. Religion has the power to transform lives and lift people up from the worst of society. Some people need that crutch in their lives. I just happen to be one of those who don't. I espouse Earthseed, syntheism and natural theology as the means I use to understand the divine, but even without these opinions I would still ultimately be me, I would be myself - I just wouldn't post here nearly as often as I currently do.

It's going to be a long time before my religion even becomes relevant, and by the time it does, people may just ignore religion altogether and create the divine without even knowing what they're doing. Most people seem to be oblivious already to the changes we create as a society. The fact that I can use a computer to type messages like this to a public forum to get my opinion heard on this matter is more than enough evidence to me that divinity is a real thing and life is about discovering the miraculous parts of existence. We are already more than enough as it is, yet we keep pushing to do more for ourselves, other people and our environment.

If that isn't enough of a miracle by its own right, I don't know what is.

 

[Ella S.]

When I was briefly a practicing member of the Baha'i Faith, I could tell that I was in essence 'polishing my soul' with Baha'u'llah's words. My demeanor changed, my words were softer and kinder and my soul was filled with the essence of your prophet. The illusion of change happened to me and I wasn't expecting to change so differently because I prayed and studied His words. In many ways I did view this change of attitude a miracle, but the non-religious side of myself isn't really that different or worse.

I consider practicing and following a religion to 'polish the soul' as it is. Some people have a really awful natural demeanor and their lives change when they become religious, and for other people, like myself, it only slightly enhances the original person's lifestyle. I was a better person when I practiced the Baha'i Faith, but I wasn't really myself. I could tell that I was acting certain behaviors not because I really wanted to do it, but because I was forcing myself into a position which I wanted to act differently.

Prophets, just like everybody else, lives and dies to help other people. If they weren't natural, they couldn't be of the natural world, but if they weren't divine, nobody would take their words seriously. There are still yet things that science cannot explain, the gaps of which are filled by religion. Of course, every year that passes we get closer and closer to understanding the whole without religion, but as it is currently good religion enforces good science and good science reinforces good religion.

Miracles happen everyday, yet, now that they are explained through science, they are considered natural and therefore don't need further investigation. I suspect that no matter which religion I had practiced I would be polishing my soul as a result from it. My standards are already quite high when it comes to engaging discussion with other people, so it wasn't necessarily a miracle when it improved just slightly when I heeded the words of Baha'u'llah. Yet still, I try my best to allow others to see the best of me, and the best of my opinions. I am meticulous with my words.

There's only so much that can happen from one person, or even a group a likeminded individuals. Religion has the power to transform lives and lift people up from the worst of society. Some people need that crutch in their lives. I just happen to be one of those who don't. I espouse Earthseed, syntheism and natural theology as the means I use to understand the divine, but even without these opinions I would still ultimately be me, I would be myself - I just wouldn't post here nearly as often as I currently do.

It's going to be a long time before my religion even becomes relevant, and by the time it does, people may just ignore religion altogether and create the divine without even knowing what they're doing. Most people seem to be oblivious already to the changes we create as a society. The fact that I can use a computer to type messages like this to a public forum to get my opinion heard on this matter is more than enough evidence to me that divinity is a real thing and life is about discovering the miraculous parts of existence. We are already more than enough as it is, yet we keep pushing to do more for ourselves, other people and our environment.

If that isn't enough of a miracle by its own right, I don't know what is.

I like the way you say that practicing religion is a way of polishing the soul. I think that's the case for me with Stoicism. I am disciplining the mind to purify it of vice and passion, in the hopes that it will reveal the shiny virtues underneath the varnish.

While I don't like words like "miracle" or "magic" because of their prevalent misuse and heavy supernatural connotations, I do think there is something to be said for maintaining a sense of awe about the world.

 

[danieldemol]

To me it makes more sense that improving a soul is a process of training the soul, rather than doing a quick magic. It is like plant growing from seed. It cannot happen in a moment realistically speaking.

Of course it can't happen "realistically" and the reason why it can't happen realistically is because in reality there is no omnipotent All-Merciful God that intervenes in the material realm contrary to Baha'u'llah 's claims

But of course that is obvious to me, which is why I'm done replying here, because the obvious contrary evidence won't convince you, and your consideration of any reply being equal to a sound reply is never going to convince me, so we are at an impasse where neither of us can convince the other.

So im going to wish you a nice day even though I expect you to insult my intelligence with what amounts to another non-sound reply that doesn't take into account *all* the evidence.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Of course it can't happen "realistically" and the reason why it can't happen realistically is because in reality there is no omnipotent All-Merciful God that intervenes in the material realm contrary to Baha'u'llah 's claims

But of course that is obvious to me, which is why I'm done replying here, because the obvious contrary evidence won't convince you, and your consideration of any reply being equal to a sound reply is never going to convince me, so we are at an impasse where neither of us can convince the other.

So im going to wish you a nice day even though I expect you to insult my intelligence with what amounts to another non-sound reply that doesn't take into account *all* the evidence.

In my opinion.

No body is going to insult your intelligence my friend.

The expectation that if there is a God then He must do unrealistic things, and if no unrealistic things happen then there is no God, in my view is a common error in the minds of most people.
I for one, do not believe this, neither does the Bahai Faith teach that.

Why would anyone make such a conclusion, that since we don't see any unrealistic things happening, thus there is no true God? Who defines God as one who supposed to do unrealistic things?

 

[Brian2]

Of course it can't happen "realistically" and the reason why it can't happen realistically is because in reality there is no omnipotent All-Merciful God that intervenes in the material realm contrary to Baha'u'llah 's claims

But of course that is obvious to me, which is why I'm done replying here, because the obvious contrary evidence won't convince you, and your consideration of any reply being equal to a sound reply is never going to convince me, so we are at an impasse where neither of us can convince the other.

So im going to wish you a nice day even though I expect you to insult my intelligence with what amounts to another non-sound reply that doesn't take into account *all* the evidence.

In my opinion.

Answered prayers are part of the evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Answered prayers are part of the evidence.

Do you believe in predestination?

 

[danieldemol]

Answered prayers are part of the evidence.

I see no way to demonstrate prayers are answered by God as opposed to nature, therefore they are not evidence.

For example if someone prays to the Aztec God for rains and it rains was that the Aztec God answering prayers or was it simply due to rain that day?

In my opinion.

 

[Brian2]

I see no way to demonstrate prayers are answered by God as opposed to nature, therefore they are not evidence.

For example if someone prays to the Aztec God for rains and it rains was that the Aztec God answering prayers or was it simply due to rain that day?

In my opinion.

It is evidence for the people who prayed and it may have been God acting. It is evidence for faith.
But you cannot really say it is not answered prayer even though you do.

 

[Brian2]

Do you believe in predestination?

No not really. Different people seem to mean different things by the word however.

 

[Heyo]

It is evidence for the people who prayed and it may have been God acting. It is evidence for faith.
But you cannot really say it is not answered prayer even though you do.

Do you also think that "answered prayer" is evidence that the gods look favorable upon human sacrifice? After all, the Aztecs prayed and sacrificed for the sun god to re-appear in the morning. Does that justify the humans killed?

 

[viole]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

Because if a God doesn't do that, why bother believing in Him?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

I don't think that people think that God must do miracles, but rather God does do miracles. And when the woman with the issue of blood went to every doctor and didn't get any better but actually did worse, she decided that God was the only answer and got healed.

Also, I don't believe that people expect God to make "everything right", but that faith gets us through and everything ends up right.

Christians generally hold the position of grace and mercy triumphs over judgement and so when in the hole of life the only option is to extend a hand upward from where we believe salvation can come from.

 

[Koldo]

It is evidence for the people who prayed and it may have been God acting. It is evidence for faith.
But you cannot really say it is not answered prayer even though you do.

If I were to be really rigorous about it, I also can't say you are a human. For all I know you just might be a figment of my imagination. But in daily usage, we can easily say that ordinary rain (as in rain that doesn't require a miraculous intervention to be explained) doesn't count as answered prayer.