Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am saying that, this materialistic world, is working based on Laws of physics.
When observing this world, one can say, this physical world must have been created by God, and another may say, there is no such evidence, because all of it is explainable by science, and though we know little now, in future we discover more and more.

Why would someone say that this world must have been created by God? Do you think there's anything about this world that suggests this must be the case?

So, I am saying if we observe this world we cannot say, if a God created it, or it just somehow existed, and or evolved as science has already discovered a little of its knowledge.

So you think none of it points to God, but none of it excludes God?

But, beside this apparent world, my perception is only the Holy Books, and Those Major Messengers of God, are the evidence for the God.

Right.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would someone say that this world must have been created by God? Do you think there's anything about this world that suggests this must be the case?

Probably by the cause and effect argument.
But of course that is not considered proof by many.

So you think none of it points to God, but none of it excludes God?

I am saying one cannot prove God, if their approach is to try finding any supernatural evidence anywhere in the universe. Because there is none. But the intelligent design of the world, and cause and effect arguments are still valid to at least consider the possibility.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If the world behaves exactly as if God doesn't exist, why believe that God exists?

I would say this existing world's behavior exists because Satan is the 'god' of this world of badness - 2nd Cor. 4:4; Rev. 12:12,9
God does Not yet involve Himself because Satan challenges God that under adverse conditions we would Not serve God - Job 2:4-5
The now world as never before reflects Satan's selfish distorted thinking as described at 2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13
Which is the opposite of Christ-like love as defined at 1st Cor. 13:4-6; John 13:34-35
Thus, the world does Not behave exactly as God purposes.
God's purpose is to get rid of those who bring ruin to Earth - Rev. 11:18 B
The passing of time allowed for people to be born and to think who we would like as Sovereign.
Wickedness is a reason to pray to God asking for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20,2
Jesus to come by bringing Peace on Earth by getting rid of wickedness on Earth - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
Then, the world of right-hearted people will behave exactly how God purposes mankind to exist on Earth.

 

[Brian2]

If I were to be really rigorous about it, I also can't say you are a human. For all I know you just might be a figment of my imagination. But in daily usage, we can easily say that ordinary rain (as in rain that doesn't require a miraculous intervention to be explained) doesn't count as answered prayer.

I disagree about the rain.

 

[Brian2]

Do you also think that "answered prayer" is evidence that the gods look favorable upon human sacrifice? After all, the Aztecs prayed and sacrificed for the sun god to re-appear in the morning. Does that justify the humans killed?

No I don't think that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Probably by the cause and effect argument.
But of course that is not considered proof by many.

Because it isn't a proof of anything.

I am saying one cannot prove God, if their approach is to try finding any supernatural evidence anywhere in the universe. Because there is none.

For there to be "supernatural evidence," we would first need to establish in a coherent way what "supernatural" means.

But the intelligent design of the world, and cause and effect arguments are still valid to at least consider the possibility.

Meaning what, though?

For something to point to God, it would have to align better with a model that includes God than with a godless model. None of the "intelligent design" examples I've ever seen do that.

 

[Apostle John]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

It’s obvious to me the true God is the Saviour as described in the Bible and will regenerate this world as He did in the past. He made the laws of nature to confuse atheists. But humans are humans and this is probably why Satan will be released for a little while in the distant future.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If the omnipotent God wanted to show a sign that convinces everyone, He can. How could He not be able? But, then, that will take away everyone's free will.

That doesn't make any sense.

People will not have a choice to accept or reject anymore, rather they will be forced.

False. They'ld be compelled to believe in the face of solid evidence, sure. Just like the reason they believe in gravity.
I don't see what this has to do with free will, which concerns decision making.

Therefore if the God wanted to create human with free will, it is understandable why He would not show a convincing miraculous sign.

Is it? Explain it. Specifically the part where making his existence known would hinder free will.

However, this does not mean He would not show any convincing evidence, which can only be discovered by anyone who wishes willingly search after them.

Huh? Now you lost me completely.
I thought the whole time we were talking about "showing convincing evidence" and that you were making excuses for why she doesn't. Now you say she does?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If there is a God, it makes sense that He has given free will to everyone.

Why would that make sense? I don't see how that follows.

Thus The way of God, would be to establish a way, that, only those who wish to discover about God, may know Him, and at the same time, not force others who do not wish. In this way, no body is forced, and at the same time, there is a way for those who wish to know Him.

You make no sense.

My wife is not interested in physics. She doesn't know about conservation of energy or relativity. She is not force to know it either.
But she has a way to know about it. An objective way. An independent way. A way that anyone who does it, comes to the same conclusion. Not 35.000 different ones which more often then not are actually pre-determined by geographic location and / or cultural background.


In short: in religion, there is no way to know. There is only a way to make yourself believe (anything). It's called "faith".

This is the difference between verifiable truths concerning the universe on the one hand, and bare claims of mythology and superstition which appeals to "visions" and "revelations" and what-not on the other.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I would say, in reality your three points have historical evidence.

It does not.
What we have are numbers of people who make / believe those claims.

It is a fact that, it is written Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad did miracles. It is a fact that, it is written Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were Messengers of God. It is a fact that it is written God has created human with free will.

It is a fact that those things were written, yes. It is not a fact that what was written also actually occurred.

But, of course just because it is written, it does not mean, it is the literal truth.

And considering the nature and context of the claims, we can in all honesty pretty much rule out that all those extra-ordinary and outlandish magical things, are truth. Literal or otherwise.

And my own belief is not that, Jesus, Moses or Muhammad did miracles as it is generally understood by the adherents of these Religions.
I am just trying to logically analyze why, God did not and shall not perform miracles to convince humanity.

And he's explaining to you how it's just a giant pile up of assumptions all meant to plug the holes in the original assumptions.

 

[Heyo]

No I don't think that.

Why not? You have a petition (prayer / sacrifice) and an event (rain / sun rises). You think the first is answered petition and the second not? What is different?

 

[wellwisher]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

The way I look at it, if God created the universe and Science says it is 13 billion light year across, with trillions of stars, there must be other life forms, all over the universe. I would guess there are many places in the universe, where the top tier of life on other planets, is much better than humans with fewer manmade problems. Humans were given will and choice, but continue to act like selfish beasts, creating their own problems with bad choices. Why would God care for one of his flop experiments, when he has more promising experiments, here and there, that have worked out to specs? Human want this unconditional love even as they screw up. God the father believes in conditional love; return to life.

If you were a parent, you do not reward bad behavior, with something spectacular; miracle trip to Disney. If you do, you will train the child for bad behavior; reward for bad, reinforces bad. Reward for good, reinforces the good. It would make more sense that God would only treat his best planets, lifeforms and individuals with the spectacular as a reward. Earth, as a whole gets crap, because humans suck. Atheist do not even care. We need everyone to step up, so we can deserve the good stuff. It first appears in pockets, than it pools.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That doesn't make any sense.




False. They'ld be compelled to believe in the face of solid evidence, sure. Just like the reason they believe in gravity.
I don't see what this has to do with free will, which concerns decision making.



Is it? Explain it. Specifically the part where making his existence known would hinder free will.



Huh? Now you lost me completely.
I thought the whole time we were talking about "showing convincing evidence" and that you were making excuses for why she doesn't. Now you say she does?

Convincing Evidence is not the same as Miracles in my view.
It seems you think otherwise.
But, let's remember you said Gravity as an example. That is not Miracle. Gravity is science. Miracle by definition means, something that can not be explained by science, and thus it is miraculous.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Convincing Evidence is not the same as Miracles in my view.
It seems you think otherwise.
But, let's remember you said Gravity as an example. That is not Miracle. Gravity is science. Miracle by definition means, something that can not be explained by science, and thus it is miraculous.

You forgot to actually answer the question:

How does making his existence verifiably known, in any way hinder free will?

Sounds like you are just beating around the bush

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You forgot to actually answer the question:

How does making his existence verifiably known, in any way hinder free will?

Sounds like you are just beating around the bush

I never said that making His existence verifiable known, will take free will.

I said, it depends on how He will make Himself known.

For me, the Holy Books, are a valid evidence and proof. Because I can see signs in them, which in my view are certainly cannot be from human.
But, if you tell me, in your view the Holy Books are no way a proof for God, and that human have written them from themselves, then that is your view.

But, if one says, if God wants to make Himself known to us by doing Miracles, then no one will have a choice to disbelieve. Suppose, God, brings back your grandfather or grandfather back to life. And if your grandparents are still here, some close relative or friend that you knew well, and saw he was buried before back to life, right before your eyes. Do you even have a choice to disbelieve?
I don't think so. The purpose of God, is to create a world, that people freely can choose to believe and follow, if they want. Moreover, the very award of God, in this world is, to enable them to see God. So, then there must be a test to decide who deserves.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never said that making His existence verifiable known, will take free will.

Euh.... yeah you did:

If the omnipotent God wanted to show a sign that convinces everyone, He can. How could He not be able? But, then, that will take away everyone's free will.

I said, it depends on how He will make Himself known.

I don't see how that matters and / or impacts the free will aspect.
So, I can only repeat my question.

For me, the Holy Books, are a valid evidence and proof. Because I can see signs in them, which in my view are certainly cannot be from human.
But, if you tell me, in your view the Holy Books are no way a proof for God, and that human have written them from themselves, then that is your view.

But, if one says, if God wants to make Himself known to us by doing Miracles, then no one will have a choice to disbelieve. Suppose, God, brings back your grandfather or grandfather back to life. And if your grandparents are still here, some close relative or friend that you knew well, and saw he was buried before back to life, right before your eyes. Do you even have a choice to disbelieve?

I never have "choice" in what I believe or disbelieve. I believe things about which I am convinced. And being convinced of something is not a choice. It is a compulsion based on evidence and trust.

I can't "choose" to start believing in a god any more then you can "choose" to start believing in undetectable leprechauns.

Again, this has nothing to do with free will. Free will is about conscious decision making where you actually have valid choices A and B (and C and...)

When something convinces me (or not), there is no such choice. There is only the compulsion of being convinced (or not).

So without verifiable evidence, I am compelled to not believe.
With verifiable evidence, I am compelled to believe.

Either way, I have no "free choice" in the matter.

I don't think so. The purpose of God, is to create a world, that people freely can choose to believe and follow, if they want. Moreover, the very award of God, in this world is, to enable them to see God. So, then there must be a test to decide who deserves.

In the mythology, Satan knows for a fact that god exists. God is as true to satan as my mom is to me.
Yet, Satan was able to exercise his free will and not follow.

The very mythology itself thus counters your point.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Euh.... yeah you did:






I don't see how that matters and / or impacts the free will aspect.
So, I can only repeat my question.



I never have "choice" in what I believe or disbelieve. I believe things about which I am convinced. And being convinced of something is not a choice. It is a compulsion based on evidence and trust.

I can't "choose" to start believing in a god any more then you can "choose" to start believing in undetectable leprechauns.

Again, this has nothing to do with free will. Free will is about conscious decision making where you actually have valid choices A and B (and C and...)

When something convinces me (or not), there is no such choice. There is only the compulsion of being convinced (or not).

So without verifiable evidence, I am compelled to not believe.
With verifiable evidence, I am compelled to believe.

Either way, I have no "free choice" in the matter.



In the mythology, Satan knows for a fact that god exists. God is as true to satan as my mom is to me.
Yet, Satan was able to exercise his free will and not follow.

The very mythology itself thus counters your point.

There is a difference between, one who makes a serious effort to find the evidence for God, comparing to if anyone sees the evidence regardless if they wanted or not.
It is about finding God rather than facing God without free will.

And yes, you are right, the story of Satan contradicts my point, from the perspective you noted. So, you have to choose what is logical to you.
For me the stories in holy Books such as Satan are symbolic. They are not literally true. So, I have no issue to believe the stories are inspired by God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But, if one says, if God wants to make Himself known to us by doing Miracles, then no one will have a choice to disbelieve. Suppose, God, brings back your grandfather or grandfather back to life. And if your grandparents are still here, some close relative or friend that you knew well, and saw he was buried before back to life, right before your eyes. Do you even have a choice to disbelieve?
I don't think so. The purpose of God, is to create a world, that people freely can choose to believe and follow, if they want. Moreover, the very award of God, in this world is, to enable them to see God. So, then there must be a test to decide who deserves.

Do you think we choose what to believe generally?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you think we choose what to believe generally?

I believe in this:


"When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us", he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: “In Our ways shall We assuredly guide him.” Baha'u'llah

"Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor, the doubter.” Bahá’u’lláh


"We have shown thee these two ways; walk thou the way thou choosest. This verily is the truth, and after truth there remaineth naught but error." Baha'u'llah


So, I believe the answer is, yes and no.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why do people expect God to do miracles?

I suppose it's because that's how He is supposed to have established His bona fides in the first place.