Why do people make children?

[The Hammer]

“Low-road capitalism,” the University of Wisconsin-Madison sociologist Joel Rogers has called it. In a capitalist society that goes low, wages are depressed as businesses compete over the price, not the quality, of goods; so-called unskilled workers are typically incentivized through punishments, not promotions; inequality reigns and poverty spreads. In the United States, the richest 1 percent of Americans own 40 percent of the country’s wealth, while a larger share of working-age people (18-65) live in poverty than in any other nation belonging to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (O.E.C.D.)."

American Capitalism Is Brutal. You Can Trace That to the Plantation. (Published 2019)

Slavery helped turn America into a financial colossus. And our economy is still shaped by management practices invented by enslavers and overseers.

www.nytimes.com

 

[The Hammer]

Are you equating workers with raw materials?

Workers have a soul. Have a dignity. Have feelings. Have aspirations. Have dreams.

That was my fault. I mentioned that workers are resource exploited by capitalism.

 

[The Hammer]

But there is an environment to live in....

Sure. But for how long?

 

[Koldo]

Sounds crazy huh? That's why I was arguing against that idea.

Even though I disagree with it, it doesn't sound crazy. But what conclusion are you drawing from your affirmation that most rich people start either as middle class or poor? How is this pertinent?

Just because you start off at the bottom of a system does not mean you are a victim of that system

I didn't use the term 'victim'. I used the term 'loser'.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I mean....if we exclude the millionaires or the billionaires, well, they can assure a future to their children.
What about the rest?
Proletariat, Middle class. Why do they make them?
They procreate, making children who will have to undergo the parents' impositions, who will basically have no freedom, and once adults they will have to succumb in shark-infested waters. Because there are voracious sharks, that is wicked people who victimize the weakest. Only the fittest survive in capitalistic economies.

Well...I have discovered Anti-Natalism, lately...but I identify as a overpopulation believer and I am 100% convinced that all the problems we have on Earth are caused by too many people on Earth.
So I would like to understand why people do anything to have children.

It's something absolutely avoidable. There is contraception.


Please...only serious replies, merci beaucoup.

I love kids. And I had an inexplicable urge to have kids.
Well... it "felt" inexplicable. Off course it is explicable: it's just a biological drive to procreate.

I have a 4-year old daughter and 8-year old son.
Every day I feel like they are the best thing I ever did.
It gives me purpose, it gives me fullfilment, it makes me feel "complete".

When I am with them, doing whatever, I feel happier then I ever have been.

 

[Kfox]

So if the workers ask to work for 5 hours a day for 6 days, on the same salary, the Capitalist will accept?

Workers don't deal with capitalist, they deal with managers. The worker and manager negotiate working conditions, hours, and salary prior to start of employment

Are you equating workers with raw materials?

If I were making the point that workers and raw materials were equal, I would have said so.

 

[Kfox]

Even though I disagree with it, it doesn't sound crazy. But what conclusion are you drawing from your affirmation that most rich people start either as middle class or poor? How is this pertinent?

I was just trying to make the point that just because you aren't a millionaire or billionaire, it doesn't mean you can't give your child the lifestyle they deserve.

 

[Estro Felino]

Workers don't deal with capitalist, they deal with managers. The worker and manager negotiate working conditions, hours, and salary prior to start of employment

But if people stopped making children, capitalists wouldn't have so many workers to hire, right?
They would have to reduce the volume of their production, and say bye bye to their dreams of profit maximization.

Maybe you are not understanding here that anti-Natalism has also the goal to stop exploiters from exploiting.
And if they want to produce something, they should till the soil themselves instead of exploiting other people's work.

If I were making the point that workers and raw materials were equal, I would have said so.

They are considered the same thing in macroeconomics.
Labor-force is considered a production factor.

 

[Kfox]

But if people stopped making children, capitalists wouldn't have so many workers to hire, right?
They would have to reduce the volume of their production, and say bye bye to their dreams of profit maximization.

If people quit having children, there would be no customers to create wealth. Remember; customers create wealth, not workers, not capitalist; the customers do that. If there are no customers around to purchase products, there would be no need to create products and the whole system shuts down.

Maybe you are not understanding here that anti-Natalism has also the goal to stop exploiters from exploiting.

How are you defining "exploit"? Because you speak of it as if it were a bad thing.

And if they want to produce something, they should till the soil themselves instead of exploiting other people's work.

What about the people who want to work? Are you saying they should not be allowed to sell their labor to someone else?

They are considered the same thing in macroeconomics.
Labor-force is considered a production factor.

So what was your point about workers having souls, dreams, aspirations, etc?

 

[Estro Felino]

How are you defining "exploit"? Because you speak of it as if it were a bad thing.

Exploiting is a bad thing.
It means that if a worker produces goods and services worth 100 euros, the Capitalist will take 90 euros and the worker just ten.

What about the people who want to work? Are you saying they should not be allowed to sell their labor to someone else?

Good for them. May they do that.
In the Nineteenth century every person wanted a piece of land and to farm it personally, with their own family and relatives. That's what the small agricultural firms system was.
Then the population tripled because too many people made too many children and the land didn't suffice for everyone.

So what was your point about workers having souls, dreams, aspirations, etc?

That they want to be treated with dignity. With kindness.
The employer should always smile at them. And be nice with them. And even if they make some mistakes, they should correct them with kindness and patience.
That's what I meant.
We have evolved from the animal stage, so we have become better and kinder people. Or at least, some have.

 

[Kfox]

Exploiting is a bad thing.
It means that if a worker produces goods and services worth 100 euros, the Capitalist will take 90 euros and the worker just ten.

The dictionary definition of exploit simply means to make full use of which is usually not a bad thing but a necessary thing. However going by your definition; if we assume the worker only gets 10 out of the 100, it’s because his agreed upon wage is 10. so it also means if the goods and services were only worth 5 euros, the capitalists has to figure out a way of coming up with an additional 5 because he is required to pay the worker; 10, right?

Good for them. May they do that.

So are you saying you do not agree with the anti-Natalism goals you mentioned previously?

 

[Estro Felino]

The dictionary definition of exploit simply means to make full use of which is usually not a bad thing but a necessary thing. However going by your definition; if we assume the worker only gets 10 out of the 100, it’s because his agreed upon wage is 10. so it also means if the goods and services were only worth 5 euros, the capitalists has to figure out a way of coming up with an additional 5 because he is required to pay the worker; 10, right?

I give you another example.
In a island there is a Capitalist that needs workers. There are only 10 workers on that island. And they say that if they will not get a salary X, they will not work for the greedy Capitalist.
The greedy Capitalist has two option: either close his business or to accept the workers' demand because there are no other workers disposed to work for a much lower wage on that tiny island.
Got that concept?
If people are few on this planet, Capitalists will stop being greedy and perhaps some will even go to Paradise in the afterlife.

 

[Koldo]

I was just trying to make the point that just because you aren't a millionaire or billionaire, it doesn't mean you can't give your child the lifestyle they deserve.

If you are poor, particularly if you are living in a capitalist society, you can't.

 

[Kfox]

I give you another example.
In a island there is a Capitalist that needs workers. There are only 10 workers on that island. And they say that if they will not get a salary X, they will not work for the greedy Capitalist.

Not sure of the point you are trying to make, but that’s not just how things work on your island, that’s how things work in real life! When a worker sells his labor, he AGREES on the wage along with the manager that hires him.
With that said, do you agree with the point I made? That the worker gets his wage regardless of if the products he sold is enough to pay his salary?

 

[Kfox]

If you are poor, particularly if you are living in a capitalist society, you can't.

I don't think there is such a thing as a capitalist society. What we call capitalist societies are generally societies that employ capitalism along with other economic systems that have systems in place to aid the poor.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not sure of the point you are trying to make,

Listen...the point I am trying to make is pretty clear.
Capitalists exploit people.

 

[Kfox]

If you are poor, particularly if you are living in a capitalist society, you can't.

I don't think there is such a thing as a capitalist society. What we call capitalist societies are generally societies that employ capitalism along with other economic systems that have systems in place to aid the poor.

 

[Kfox]

If you are poor, particularly if you are living in a capitalist society, you can't.

According to what standard should only millionaires raise children?

 

[Kfox]

Listen...the point I am trying to make is pretty clear.
Capitalists exploit people.

Yes; capitalist exploit workers, and workers exploit capitalists. It is the negotiating job of the capitalist to get his product built for as little as possible, and sold for as much as possible.
It is the job of the worker to do as little work for as much pay possible.
It is the job of the consumer to get as much of the capitalists product for the leas amount of money possible.
Everybody is in the business of exploiting. The problem is when someone only notices how they are being exploited, but refuse to notice how they are exploiting others.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes; capitalist exploit workers, and workers exploit capitalists. It is the negotiating job of the capitalist to get his product built for as little as possible, and sold for as much as possible.
It is the job of the worker to do as little work for as much pay possible.
It is the job of the consumer to get as much of the capitalists product for the leas amount of money possible.
Everybody is in the business of exploiting. The problem is when someone only notices how they are being exploited, but refuse to notice how they are exploiting others.

But you have failed to address the issue. Why people should make children.
One reason why they should make them.