Why do so many need a god ?.

[psychoslice]

My 'need' for God is a strength though, I don't personally see it as a weakness.

Could I aske, how does a belief in a god give you strength ?.

 

[Sunstone]

...why do many get so upset when their beliefs are challenged, after all its just a belief, or isn't it.

People -- especially, it seems, in the Middle East and West -- tend to identify themselves with their beliefs, both religious and secular. Once a person does that, they tend to defend those beliefs as adamantly as, say, they might defend their physical bodies. In their eyes, their beliefs have become part of them.

This is not true of people in every culture. Japanese culture, for instance, tends to discourage people from identifying themselves with their beliefs. Perhaps it does so for a variety of reasons, but I think one of those reasons might be in the interests of promoting social harmony and cohesion. That is, when we identify ourselves with our beliefs, beliefs come to divide us.

 

[buddhist]

IMO most depend on an idea of a god in the same way that a child depends on his parents. Many might feel lost or insecure in the world without a parental figure to watch over or guide them, even if it is an invisible spirit of some sort imagined as doing just that. Western society also often teaches and expects an "adult" to pave their own way, on "conquer" their world on their own ... but on a more fundamental level, many insecurities about life and questions about one's ability to handle that life remains, and so they turn to a deity. Or, they might sense a lack of power in the world, and turn to other deities (whether good or evil) for their help or power to gain a sense of strength and command over their chaotic world.

Whatever the case might be, those feelings are IMO merely symptoms of a deeper problem. It is this deeper problem which the Buddha identified at the very heart of the matter: the innate suffering we all endure on a daily basis, which is at the core of why so many feel lost, insecure, or impotent in the world. The only real solution is not to temporarily distract one's self from sufferings (distraction only leads to more suffering), but to pierce those sufferings with the eye of wisdom in order to systematically dismantle the mental constructs which form the basis for our sufferings. Nobody can do that but ourselves. "Thus you too become a lamp unto yourselves, illuminating your inner selves, relying on no external help, becoming your own refuge." (Buddha, DN 16.2)

 

[psychoslice]

People -- especially, it seems, in the Middle East and West -- tend to identify themselves with their beliefs, both religious and secular. Once a person does that, they tend to defend those beliefs as adamantly as, say, they might defend their physical bodies. In their eyes, their beliefs have become part of them.

This is not true of people in every culture. Japanese culture, for instance, tends to discourage people from identifying themselves with their beliefs. Perhaps it does so for a variety of reasons, but I think one of those reasons might be in the interests of promoting social harmony and cohesion. That is, when we identify ourselves with our beliefs, beliefs come to divide us.

Thanks, that was really interesting, especially about the Japanese discouraging beliefs, I suppose in one way they actually are promoting a belief, the belief in not having a belief ?.

 

[psychoslice]

IMO most depend on an idea of a god in the same way that a child depends on his parents. Many might feel lost or insecure in the world without a parental figure to watch over or guide them, even if it is an invisible spirit of some sort imagined as doing just that. Western society also often teaches and expects an "adult" to pave their own way, on "conquer" their world on their own ... but on a more fundamental level, many insecurities about life and questions about one's ability to handle that life remains, and so they turn to a deity. Or, they might sense a lack of power in the world, and turn to other deities (whether good or evil) for their help or power to gain a sense of strength and command over their chaotic world.

Whatever the case might be, those feelings are IMO merely symptoms of a deeper problem. It is this deeper problem which the Buddha identified at the very heart of the matter: the innate suffering we all endure on a daily basis, which is at the core of why so many feel lost, insecure, or impotent in the world. The only real solution is not to temporarily distract one's self from sufferings (distraction only leads to more suffering), but to pierce those sufferings with the eye of wisdom in order to systematically dismantle the mental constructs which form the basis for our sufferings. Nobody can do that but ourselves. "Thus you too become a lamp unto yourselves, illuminating your inner selves, relying on no external help, becoming your own refuge." (Buddha, DN 16.2)

That was beautifully said, thanks for sharing.

 

[Deidre]

Could I aske, how does a belief in a god give you strength ?.

Because I feel my best life is in Him. I can have a good life without God, but I have found my best life...is in Him. That gives me great solace and strength, to admit that to myself.

 

[psychoslice]

Because I feel my best life is in Him. I can have a good life without God, but I have found my best life...is in Him. That gives me great solace and strength, to admit that to myself.

But couldn't any belief system give us strength, no matter what it is ?.

 

[buddhist]

That was beautifully said, thanks for sharing.

You're welcome.

The effects of such behavior (e.g. a longing for a god, whether real or imaginary) is also unfortunate. It leads to learned complacency and misplaced dependency, and results in a deficiency of much-needed self-development which would have led to wisdom, and from wisdom towards self-awakening and freedom.

I doubt that there are any (good) parents who believes it is a good idea to teach their child to be eternally dependant on them. That child will always remain a child; a parent who does that is not a good parent, nor are such "gods" good gods, but evil ones.

 

[Sunstone]

Thanks, that was really interesting, especially about the Japanese discouraging beliefs, I suppose in one way they actually are promoting a belief, the belief in not having a belief ?.

Here's a story you might find interesting. After World War II, public opinion polling was introduced to Japan by some well meaning Westerners, who hoped it would further democracy. But the pollsters initially met with an entirely unexpected obstacle: The Japanese simply did not know how to handle questions about what they believed! Typically, they would politely suck their lips, then answer that they simply didn't know. The pollsters couldn't make heads or tails of the huge volume of "don't knows". Were the Japanese afraid of divulging their opinions? It was a long time before the Westerners figured out the truth: For the Japanese of that period, what you believed about, say, the gods, depended on who you were talking to!

You see, in Japan, you are a different person in different social situations, and perhaps even in different environments. There are about five common words for "I" (and up to twenty, if you count the uncommon words), and which "I" you think you are at any given moment depends on circumstances. For instance, when speaking to your mother, you are a different "I" or self than when speaking to your spouse. Indeed, there is a Japanese proverb that goes something like, "A man becomes a different person moving from one room to another in the same house". So, the problem the pollsters encountered was that the people they were interviewing didn't know which "I" they should answer with.

I hear it took a few years before the Japanese became well enough educated about polling that polls in Japan became reliable.

 

[psychoslice]

You're welcome.

The effects of such behavior (e.g. a longing for a god, whether real or imaginary) is also unfortunate. It leads to learned complacency and misplaced dependency, and results in a deficiency of much-needed self-development which would have led to wisdom, and from wisdom towards self-awakening and freedom.

I doubt that there are any (good) parents who believes it is a good idea to teach their child to be eternally dependant on them. That child will always remain a child; a parent who does that is not a good parent, nor are such "gods" good gods, but evil ones.

Yes well said again, I think parents who don't let their children grow up are still children themselves, or should I say childish.

 

[psychoslice]

Here's a story you might find interesting. After World War II, public opinion polling was introduced to Japan by some well meaning Westerners, who hoped it would further democracy. But the pollsters initially met with an entirely unexpected obstacle: The Japanese simply did not know how to handle questions about what they believed! Typically, they would politely suck their lips, then answer that they simply didn't know. The pollsters couldn't make heads or tails of the huge volume of "don't knows". Were the Japanese afraid of divulging their opinions? It was a long time before the Westerners figured out the truth: For the Japanese of that period, what you believed about, say, the gods, depended on who you were talking to!

You see, in Japan, you are a different person in different social situations, and perhaps even in different environments. There are about five common words for "I" (and up to twenty, if you count the uncommon words), and which "I" you think you are at any given moment depends on circumstances. For instance, when speaking to your mother, you are a different "I" or self than when speaking to your spouse. Indeed, there is a Japanese proverb that goes something like, "A man becomes a different person moving from one room to another in the same house". So, the problem the pollsters encountered was that the people they were interviewing didn't know which "I" they should answer with.

I hear it took a few years before the Japanese became well enough educated about polling that polls in Japan became reliable.

That is so interesting, I had no idea about that, its like when we put on a different mask for whatever occasion, be it with our parents or friends, in whatever case we wear a different mask, I think its simular ?.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I myself don't need a god, I am happy with my own life, but I find it hard to realize that many are not happy unless they have a god in their life, what's the big deal about having a god in our life. So I suppose I am asking those who need a god in their life, to share why they do need this god, I am honestly confused to why we need a god.

I would say It's the human need for iconic dependency on something/anything that represents superior qualities that one admires and strives for, but themselves ultimately fall short of that achievement.

Having a God or similar icon makes for a wonderful coping mechanism and a motivational platform. It's really hard to go on one's own, so having a God makes for an ideal fit.

 

[buddhist]

A good parent does not demand dependence, worship, or blind obedience. A good parent would repudiate such foolishnesses; he would be a Teacher, compassionately guiding his child towards progressive self-development, and provide ways for his child to personally experience things which provide him with direct knowledge and insight into greater and deeper truths, facilitating his children to grow into wisdom and maturity in every sense. Thus, he does not find a need to threaten his child with punishments for "not believing" things the child has not experienced for himself; his way delivers corrective lessons equal to the wrongs done (based on intent of the heart, not on external appearances). He gives greater responsibilities and privileges to his child as he progresses in self-development, with the wish that the child will eventually equal or surpass the parent.

IMO, the Buddha and the worldview he taught came the closest to that ideal, which is one major reason why I believe in and follow that Way. Obviously, I do not call the Buddha "God", however (since the popular concept of "God" or "deity" is unfortunately and inextricably wrapped up with the ideas of worship, dependency, etc.).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I actually like this question because it makes me think of how people think they are not able to take care of themselves and find strength without an other. We are social beings, yes; and, it is natural to find someone to lean on. Sometimes I think some people need god because they find they can't lean on anyone else. Life itself is too vast and abstract to find solace in; so, to define "it" as a person one can love and be loved by makes it more personal. I think some need god, as said, as a security blanket. I don't see that as a bad thing, as not everyone can live by their own standards and even have the patience and discipline to find out what they believe in rather than adopt what an other believes in.

I guess I can compare this to my needing spirits and family. They are not people that I need as in I can't live without them. That defeats the purpose of finding your true self. It is more finding out who you are through them. If I want to learn more about my family, I'll ask my relatives. Just because they are in the flesh and bone doesn't make them more of a "reasonable" and logical to ask than spirits or ancestors (or god, for some). A lot of people cannot tell the difference because God is in all of us. In Christianity, Christ is in the Body. He is not separate as many people say. He is in people who gather in his name.

Everything is social or based on relations with other people. Regardless if it's religious in nature or not, we are social beings. Translating this in "God language" may be a bit too much; but, to dumb it down, that's why I believe some need god.

Everyone below, you don't have to answer. It is not a debate. I just want to understand why you say what you say. You can use scripture or however you like. Please keep it nice and respectful. No drop off conversations please.

Well if there was a being much more powerful than you able to help you in your life, wouldn't it be kind of stupid not to take advantage of that being being there.

That does edit not sound very nice, in my opinion, to "take advantage" of god's help. Instead of taking advantage of god's help, why don't you look at is as asking for his help. When you say take advantage, I think you are "using" god. If my mother wanted to save me from drowning and I don't want her to drown by saving me, we are in a standstill. I will edit not lower myself in order to save myself because she offered.

I will die for her. I wil not take advantage or use her so she can die for me.

Can you please explain the logic behind "taking advantage" of god's power please? Are you saying you are using him?

I am weak.
I really am. I'm tempted easily, I have no self-control and I lie a lot. I'm super selfish and a total procrastinator.

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm weak. We all are, the only difference is that I acknowledge it and seek help. I need God because I'm not arrogant enough to live without Him. And that's not a criticism by the way.

You can live without God I'm sure, but I can't. Or more to point, I won't. If that makes you look down on me, so be it. I'll keep doing it anyway because it's everything to me. He's everything to me and my life is better because of Him, I am better because of Him.

How did you come to the conclusion there was such a thing as god in order to ask for help?

I know if I need help, I'd call on the spirits, my family, my ancestors, and friends and family I have. I know they all exist because without one generation, there wouldn't be a next. It's logical. Without a mother, there is no daughter.

Yet, with god, how did you come to the conclusion that there is a Creator or god outside of time and space that can help you when you are in need? Was it a spark? A light bulb that made you feel that there is a Creator?

Even more so, how did you justify your feelings are based on what is real rather than what you want to believe is real? or does that matter?

Sorry but I don't need any faith to see that God exists, you on the other hand could do with more faith!!

If you don't have faith trust then how do you know god exists?

I'm not asking to proof god exists. I'm asking how did you justify or find in yourself that god exist if you did not put trust that he would exist in the first place?

How can you believe in god without trusting yourself-your experiences, your feelings, your justifications--that this god exists?

This question is kind of like asking why a fish needs water.
It makes no difference if a fish is unaware that it is within the water that it lives and moves and has its being, regardless of what it knows, without water, it would cease to exist.
Regardless of what mankind thinks they know, it is within the mind of God that we live, move and have our being.

Logically, that would make sense. IF god existed and he was the creator then the creation, like a child, would depend on the parent for surival like a fish to water.

However, in the fish's case, even if he does not realize it, of course, he needs the water. He "knows" the water is there. He survives in it. We don't need to justify it or need faith to know that fish need water.

Yet, with god, we are making claims or belief-statements not facts. I know I need air to breathe and even if I am not aware of it, it exists. God is not air. He is not invisible natural force. He isn't a being. If that be the case, everyone would be aware of him. because, unlike fish, we have that ability to be aware and anaylze what we observe. Since god does not fall into this category, how can you compare it to fish and water?

In reality, if you need faith to depend on god, god is a belief of the individual person-subjective. Facts do not need faith. God is not like water. The former, it isn't a fact like air even though we can't see it. Water we can. Air we know because we can feel it. God is an experience. That is personal.

I'd have to think about this more.

The question is not, why do so many need a god.
The question is, why is it that so many do not see what is right in front of them?

What do you see in front of you that makes tou think it's, say God of Abraham and not God of Hinduism? How do you know if it's not Ordin rather than a personfication of the natural force that keeps us alive?

How do you differientate what you see in front of you as god?
Also, why would you expect others to see what you see given they are not you?

Your question was why do we need God. If God exists and if he created you and if he sustains your life from moment to moment, then of course you need him. You can ignore him, but you can't eliminate his influence for good in your life. All good comes from God.

By logic-fiction or not--that's true. We are talking about reality, though; facts not theory (as in my opinion, it is). How do you know god even exists to even pin point 1. him being a creator 2. the creator of the particular religion you follow and not another 3.Based on facts (what can be observed by all) rather than experiences (what can only be observed by you)?

Are you sure all of your facts are correct? Based on the Bible and it's teachings, when we die, our thoughts perish as well:

Life is not based on the Bible. If you tell a Hindu this, they may look at you funny. What facts can you present about our needing god that we all can use as a common foundationf or argument?

In other words, since god is a fact, can you use other facts that are not related to your faith?

I could ask "why do so many people think that we need the life force"? Well, if it exists, then we need it. If it doesn't, we don't.

True. Assuming it doesn't exist (which I believe it does; I just don't call it god) how do you figure we exist? If you think we would, then we don't need this life force/god. If we do, why?

Because I feel my best life is in Him. I can have a good life without God, but I have found my best life...is in Him. That gives me great solace and strength, to admit that to myself.

You came a long way to learn about god. I'ma pick with you a bit, if you don't mind.

How do you define god?
Can you define him a part from scripture and your personal experiences?

If not, how can god exist a part from you?
If so, you'd be the first on RF to actually connect god to a definition not related to scripture (of any type) and abstract metaphorical langauge. I'll give you points if you can answer this.


As long as god is a personal experience, he cannot be fact. That is not a bad thing. I just think we need to change our language so we present god as our beliefs not the beliefs of the whole univese.

 

[Sunstone]

That is so interesting, I had no idea about that, its like when we put on a different mask for whatever occasion, be it with our parents or friends, in whatever case we wear a different mask, I think its simular ?.

You nailed it! A "tradition" slur of the Japanese has been to accuse them of being "slippery", "deceitful", and "lying". Apparently, the slur originated in early Western misunderstandings of the Japanese cultural view that a person, in effect, has multiple identities or selves. Japanese scholars and apologists often responded to the slur by making the very same point that you have: That even Westerners adopt a different attitude with their peers than they do with their parents. I gather, however, that the Japanese are much more thorough and profound in that regard than Westerners.

By the way, I once witnessed a Japanese woman transform herself from a traditional, very demure and shy Japanese lady to an upbeat, energetic, and quite personable Western woman. She was the translator for a group of businessmen. As long as she was in the company of the men, she behaved exactly like a Japanese lady. She kept her eyes downcast, spoke in the customary manner of a Japanese lady (that is, she spoke as if she was breathless), and so on. Despite the fact that I was at the time married to a Japanese woman, and knew a little bit about the culture, I was still fooled: I thought I was seeing the "true her" -- as if that's all she was.

But almost as soon as the men left, she got up, crossed the room, and was at once indistinguishable from an outgoing, extroverted American college student. The whole transformation occurred within her walking twenty feet.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A good parent does not demand dependence, worship, or blind obedience. A good parent would repudiate such foolishnesses; he would be a Teacher, compassionately guiding his child towards progressive self-development, and provide ways for his child to personally experience things which provide him with direct knowledge and insight into greater and deeper truths, facilitating his children to grow into wisdom and maturity in every sense. Thus, he does not find a need to threaten his child with punishments for "not believing" things the child has not experienced for himself; his way delivers corrective lessons equal to the wrongs done (based on intent of the heart, not on external appearances). He gives greater responsibilities and privileges to his child as he progresses in self-development, with the wish that the child will eventually equal or surpass the parent.

IMO, the Buddha and the worldview he taught came the closest to that ideal, which is one major reason why I believe in and follow that Way. Obviously, I do not call the Buddha "God", however (since the popular concept of "God" or "deity" is unfortunately and inextricably wrapped up with the ideas of worship, dependency, etc.).

Well said.

 

[Deidre]

I actually like this question because it makes me think of how people think they are not able to take care of themselves and find strength without an other. We are social beings, yes; and, it is natural to find someone to lean on. Sometimes I think some people need god because they find they can't lean on anyone else. Life itself is too vast and abstract to find solace in; so, to define "it" as a person one can love and be loved by makes it more personal. I think some need god, as said, as a security blanket. I don't see that as a bad thing, as not everyone can live by their own standards and even have the patience and discipline to find out what they believe in rather than adopt what an other believes in.

I guess I can compare this to my needing spirits and family. They are not people that I need as in I can't live without them. That defeats the purpose of finding your true self. It is more finding out who you are through them. If I want to learn more about my family, I'll ask my relatives. Just because they are in the flesh and bone doesn't make them more of a "reasonable" and logical to ask than spirits or ancestors (or god, for some). A lot of people cannot tell the difference because God is in all of us. In Christianity, Christ is in the Body. He is not separate as many people say. He is in people who gather in his name.

Everything is social or based on relations with other people. Regardless if it's religious in nature or not, we are social beings. Translating this in "God language" may be a bit too much; but, to dumb it down, that's why I believe some need god.

Everyone below, you don't have to answer. It is not a debate. I just want to understand why you say what you say. You can use scripture or however you like. Please keep it nice and respectful. No drop off conversations please.



That does edit not sound very nice, in my opinion, to "take advantage" of god's help. Instead of taking advantage of god's help, why don't you look at is as asking for his help. When you say take advantage, I think you are "using" god. If my mother wanted to save me from drowning and I don't want her to drown by saving me, we are in a standstill. I will edit not lower myself in order to save myself because she offered.

I will die for her. I wil not take advantage or use her so she can die for me.

Can you please explain the logic behind "taking advantage" of god's power please? Are you saying you are using him?



How did you come to the conclusion there was such a thing as god in order to ask for help?

I know if I need help, I'd call on the spirits, my family, my ancestors, and friends and family I have. I know they all exist because without one generation, there wouldn't be a next. It's logical. Without a mother, there is no daughter.

Yet, with god, how did you come to the conclusion that there is a Creator or god outside of time and space that can help you when you are in need? Was it a spark? A light bulb that made you feel that there is a Creator?

Even more so, how did you justify your feelings are based on what is real rather than what you want to believe is real? or does that matter?



If you don't have faith trust then how do you know god exists?

I'm not asking to proof god exists. I'm asking how did you justify or find in yourself that god exist if you did not put trust that he would exist in the first place?

How can you believe in god without trusting yourself-your experiences, your feelings, your justifications--that this god exists?



Logically, that would make sense. IF god existed and he was the creator then the creation, like a child, would depend on the parent for surival like a fish to water.

However, in the fish's case, even if he does not realize it, of course, he needs the water. He "knows" the water is there. He survives in it. We don't need to justify it or need faith to know that fish need water.

Yet, with god, we are making claims or belief-statements not facts. I know I need air to breathe and even if I am not aware of it, it exists. God is not air. He is not invisible natural force. He isn't a being. If that be the case, everyone would be aware of him. because, unlike fish, we have that ability to be aware and anaylze what we observe. Since god does not fall into this category, how can you compare it to fish and water?

In reality, if you need faith to depend on god, god is a belief of the individual person-subjective. Facts do not need faith. God is not like water. The former, it isn't a fact like air even though we can't see it. Water we can. Air we know because we can feel it. God is an experience. That is personal.

I'd have to think about this more.



What do you see in front of you that makes tou think it's, say God of Abraham and not God of Hinduism? How do you know if it's not Ordin rather than a personfication of the natural force that keeps us alive?

How do you differientate what you see in front of you as god?
Also, why would you expect others to see what you see given they are not you?



By logic-fiction or not--that's true. We are talking about reality, though; facts not theory (as in my opinion, it is). How do you know god even exists to even pin point 1. him being a creator 2. the creator of the particular religion you follow and not another 3.Based on facts (what can be observed by all) rather than experiences (what can only be observed by you)?



Life is not based on the Bible. If you tell a Hindu this, they may look at you funny. What facts can you present about our needing god that we all can use as a common foundationf or argument?

In other words, since god is a fact, can you use other facts that are not related to your faith?



True. Assuming it doesn't exist (which I believe it does; I just don't call it god) how do you figure we exist? If you think we would, then we don't need this life force/god. If we do, why?



You came a long way to learn about god. I'ma pick with you a bit, if you don't mind.

How do you define god?
Can you define him a part from scripture and your personal experiences?

If not, how can god exist a part from you?
If so, you'd be the first on RF to actually connect god to a definition not related to scripture (of any type) and abstract metaphorical langauge. I'll give you points if you can answer this.


As long as god is a personal experience, he cannot be fact. That is not a bad thing. I just think we need to change our language so we present god as our beliefs not the beliefs of the whole univese.

In a nutshell Carlita, I ''define'' God (for want of a better word but using your word lol) as a Love like no other. And Life, like no other. Before my deconversion, I described God as Scripture does...through an indoctrinated lens, if you will. But, now? He is Love and Life, like no other. And if you experience this in your lifetime, you'll know I mean.

I don't know much more than that...if I did...I'd be God.

 

[Scott C.]

Yes we need it, but we don't have to think about it because its just there, its what we are, so if you call the life force god, then it is no different, no need to even think about it, as there is no need to think about the sun. It makes more sense to worship the sun than a god that cannot be proved, at least we can see the sun, and the sun gives us life.

I'm not sure what we're debating here. If a thing exists which we need, then we need that thing. Are you suggesting that a life force is superior to a God who we love, respect, obey, and worship? I say the one that actually exists is superior to the other. Perhaps you're saying that you prefer that there be no God, and that there be a life force, so you don't have to be bothered with worship. For me it's not a question of which is superior or which I prefer. I believe based on my personal experience that there is a God upon whom we all depend. I see God as full of love and mercy and goodness. I feel love for this God and am naturally in awe and I naturally give thanks without coercion. I didn't choose either consciously or unconsciously to believe in a God who does not exist, because somehow I need that belief to be happy. Rather, since God does indeed exist, knowing him brings happiness.

 

[Scott C.]

By logic-fiction or not--that's true. We are talking about reality, though; facts not theory (as in my opinion, it is). How do you know god even exists to even pin point 1. him being a creator 2. the creator of the particular religion you follow and not another 3.Based on facts (what can be observed by all) rather than experiences (what can only be observed by you)?

My worldview, lifestyle, and entire being are driven by my belief in God. Are you asking why I believe in God so strongly that I define my life and being by that God?

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Life is not based on the Bible. If you tell a Hindu this, they may look at you funny. What facts can you present about our needing god that we all can use as a common foundationf or argument?

"The entirety of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever." Psalm 119:160

You can attempt to marginalize God and the Bible all you want. But you are going to be judged by the 10 Commandments whether you reject the Bible or not.