Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

[iris89]

Hi Deut. 32.8

My facts are not baseless but the truth and can all be checked out.

Now here are more on the crucifiction of Christ from the Quran (Koran).



ÞÇÏÑ = “qadirun”

“qadirun” definition:

One who is able to, or has power over; One who has control, able; potent. It comes from the root, “qadara/qadira”, which means to be able to do, have the power over, prevail, measure to an exact nicety, estimate exactly, be sparing, determine, decree, grown, arrange, prepare, a lot, devise, dispose, appreciate, honor, assign, know, understand, straighten, restrict.


Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 444 - 445



áÞÇÏÑ = “la” +“qadirun” = “laqadirun” = One who has power over





Thus, we have this Literal rendering of 86:8…

When His highest/ascend/raise He returned/was brought back the one who has power over.




Summary:

1) Ayah 8 then tells us that “alttariqi” was raised
2) He, “alttariqi”, alone returned/was brought back “rajAAihi”
3) “rajAAihi” is masculine, singular
4) “alttariqi” is the one who “has power over”






Integrated Summary of the Sura title & ayahs 1-8:

1) The Sura title, “alttariqi” unites the following three aspects: One who comes at night; One who knocks; Morning Star
2) Ayah 1 begins by acknowledging and joining all “al” aspects of heaven “ssama” and all “al” aspects of “ttariqi”
3) This sets the stage for the rest of the Sura
4) Ayah 2 asks how you came to the knowledge of “alttariqi”
5) Thus, the premise has been established that “alttariqi” is already known
6) Ayah 3 describes “alttariqi” as a rising star/planet having piercing brightness
7) Ayah 4 further elaborates on “alttariqi” proclaiming that ALL souls gather on it as a guardian
8 ) This gathering of spirits involves a punishment
9) This punishment involves blood
10) Ayah 5 is directly linked to ayah 4 by the sequence marker “fa” on “lyanthuri” proclaiming that not only do ALL souls gather on it as a guardian, but mankind has an intimate connection with “alttariqi”
11) This intimate connection, from which mankind is created is sacred/consecrated
12) To consecrate is to devote irrevocably to the worship of God
13) Ayah 6 expands upon ayah 5 and tells us from what mankind was created
14) The water “ma-in” in ayah 6 is described as large in quantity by the root “maha”, which means to hold much water
15) The large volume of water is in motion; pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully
16) Comparing all of the Koranic fluid-based “creation” passages, clearly shows that Sura 86 is not referring to creation via an emitted drop “nutfah”, nor is it referring to creation via stagnant, insignificant water
17) The “creation” of man spoken of in this Sura is unique from everything else mentioned in the entire Koran
18 ) Both Blood and Water have been mentioned
19) Ayah 7 tells us from where mankind was “created”
20) It describes the source of the water “ma-in” that is in motion
21) This source of the water comes from “between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones
22) “alssulbi” which is rendered backbone/loins/spine, comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION,
23) Furthermore, investigating all the Koranic passages dealing with the crucifixion, trace their origins back to the roots “salaba/saliba”
24) The definite article “al” in addition to signifying all aspects of a subject, can also be used to denote something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the reader or writer
25) This water is described as coming from the human anatomy
26) This water, from which mankind is created, comes from “alttariqi”
27) “alttariqi” has been given human attributes
28 ) Ayah 8 then tells us that “alttariqi” was raised
29) He, “alttariqi”, alone returned/was brought back “rajAAihi”
30) “rajAAihi” is masculine, singular
31) “alttariqi” is the one who “has power over”


and;



4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption, and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

4:158 But Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.

4:159 And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier.

Summary:

1) AND, their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger,
2) AND, they have not killed him,
3) AND, they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross,
4) AND, but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them,
5) AND, that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him,
6) (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him,
7) except following the assumption,
8 ) AND, they have not killed him surely/certainly.
9) BUT, Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him,
10) AND, Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.
11) AND, that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death,
12) AND, (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier.


Look at the summary here:

1) They have not killed or crucified Jesus
2) BUT, the person on the cross, resembled Jesus
3) AND, there was doubt regarding his true identity
4) THEN, after Jesus died, allah rose Jesus to himself
5) AND, Jesus will witness to them on the Resurrection day


Notice that the Koran completely acknowledges that a Crucifixion did indeed take place.

Furthermore, Sura 4 attempts to pass-off the whole event by substitution.

Thus, this Koranicly rendered event, as vague as it is, easily allows for the Crucifixion event described in Sura 86. Sura 86, in fact, clears up these passages quite nicely.

No longer do we have to wonder if the one who died on the cross that day was Jesus or not.

As you will discover, Sura 86 unimpeachably confirms to us that it was Jesus!

Furthermore, Jesus will be judging the people on the Resurrection Day. Who else besides God can Judge the dead?!

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Ronald]

No where in the whole Bible is the word Trinity, nowhere does Y H V H say I am three, Divine is not a word from the mouth of God. No where does Jesus say "I AM GOD." All of these are quite possibly false teaching, there-by carry a penalty for teaching them. This is America and you have the rights to teach as you will.

On the other hand all of these are Biblical and when I teach this there is NO Possability of false teaching.
The word of God, First Born of all creation, son of God, all Biblical.
I personally do not see the benefit of teaching extra Biblical Dogmas.

 

[robtex]

Hi Robetex and Everyone:

You want to know about Jesus (Yeshua) and his existance, go to my article:

Documentary on our Savior Jesus (Yeshua);

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=57.topic

And some other sources/resources are as follows:

The Day I Was Crucified...as told by Jesus the Christ by Gene Edwards [religion unknown]

Ancient historians books and writing, none of whom were Christian:
The Roman author Suetonius (around A.D. 120) compiled biographies of the first twelve Roman emperors [Julius Caesar (died B.C.44) through Domitian (died A.D. 96)]. Writing about the emperor Claudius (A.D. 41-54) he stated "Because the Jews at Rome cause continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, (Chrestus, a common slave-name, was popular misspelling of the name of Christ) he expelled them from the city" (Claudius 25:4) A Biblical account of this event is recorded by the physician Luke, "He found a certain Jew named Aquila, a man of Pontus by race, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome" (Acts 18:2).
Tactius in his Romans Annals (written between 115 and 117 A.D.) spoke of the Christians. "They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the Procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius" (Tactius, Annals, XV, 44)
Pliny the younger, imperial legate of the Roman province of Bithynia located in N.W. Asia Minor, wrote to the Emperor Trajan with a description of the Christian's worship. "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honor it. After this, it was their custom to separate, and them meet again to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind" (From Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, by F. F. Bruce, Eerdman Publishers).
About 52 A.D., Thallus, a freedman of Tiberius, wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his day. His history disappeared but was known by Julius Africanus. Julius Africanus describes the earthquake and the preternatural darkness which accompanied the crucifixion of Christ, and says that Thallus in Book three explained the darkness as an eclipse of the sun. (He also points out that this explanation was unacceptable becuase Jesus was crucified at full moon when no eclipse of the sun is possible) (Jesus and Chrisitan Origins Outside the New Testament, F. F. Bruce).
Josephus, the Jewish historian, speak of Jesus being condemned to the cross by Pilate and that "the tribe of Christians, so name from him, are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3, 3). Josephus further speaks of James, the brother of Jesus who is called the Christ. (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:9, 1).
Proving the historic Jesus, By Harry V. Martin, Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995 [religion unknown]

Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament by William F. Albright

Retrospect and Prospect in New Testament Archaeology

Talmud: Talmudic writings of most value concerning the historical Jesus are those compiled between 70 A.D. and 200 A.D.. The most significant test is Sanhedrin 43a: “On the eve of Passover Yeshua was hanged” (Babylonian Talmud). Lucian: Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer whose works contain sarcastic critiques of Christianity: “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account” (Death of Pelegrine, 11-13).

The early Jewish Rabbis of the first century did not deny that Jesus performed miracles, but they tried to attribute them to acts of sorcery.

A passage taken from the Babylonia Sanhedrin written sometime between 95-110 A.D. states:

"During the time of Passover they executed Yeshu (of Nazareth). An announcement was made for forty days before this saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) will be stoned in that he has practiced sorcery and deceived and led Israel astray. Let everyone who knows contrary, come and plead for his defense. But they found nothing in his defense and crucified him . . ."




These false allegations by the Jewish leaders trying to say that Jesus performed these miracles by practicing sorcery and magic arts can also be found in the Bible. Luke 11:14-20 states:



"And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes marveled. But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub. "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. "But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

An early mention of the miracles of Christ comes from Julian the Apostate (Roman Emperor from 361-363 A.D.) who was an enemy of Christianity, he wrote:

"Jesus . . . has now been honored for about three hundred years; having done nothing throughout his lifetime that was worthy of fame, unless anyone thinks it a very great work to heal the lame and the blind and to cast out demons in the towns of Bethsaida and Bethany."

This statement shows that it was commonly accepted that Jesus performed miracles in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany as recorded in the bible.

Jewish rabbinical writings found in the Talmud also give witness to the fact that Jesus had the power to heal. One such writing from around 100 A.D. involves the case of Rabbi Eleazar ben Dama who a was bitten by a poisonous snake:

'Jacob of Kephar Sama arrived to heal him in the name of Jesus [Yeshua]. But Rabbi Ishmael did not permit it. He said:"Ben Dama, you must not do so!"

(Ben Dama) replied: "I will bring you proof (from the scriptures) that he may heal me!" But he died before he was able to produce the proof.' --Tosefta, Hullin 2.22-23

"The Life and Works of Flavius Josephus' as translated by William Whiston, A.M., published by the John C. Winston Company confirms this fact on page 534 and also mentions his brother, James, on page 598.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

I was looking for primary sources not secondary ones. Suetonious was born 75 ad 35 years after Jesus death. Incidently you just said that Chrestus was a common slave name. Isn't it presumptous to think that they were talking about Jesus than? . Tactius was born 55 ad. 20 years after Jesus death. Africanus was born 160 ad. He converted to Christianity from some form of paganism.

Actually, I want to draw you a senerio. You are a roman or a Jew doesn't matter and you witness Jesus execution. Irregardless if you believe him to be a savior or just a man you see him die. Before you eyes and buried in a cave. Three days later you and hundreds of other witness see him rise from the dead resurrecteted (which is ironic because outside of Jesus christians reject the idea of resurrection) and walk upon the earth. This if it truely happened, would have been the greatest mircle of all mankind and all eternity. It had such a great impact on all the humanity that witnessed it that not a single sole bothered to record it at the time it happened. Not any historians, not any policticans, not any lawyers, not any laymen. Nobody.

Not until 30 or so years after his death does this resurection get recorded by Paul around 50 ad scholars assess. Why does this jive with you? Why would hundreds of people witness this and nobody record it. The Bible is THE ONLY PRIMARY soucre called Jesus the savior and it was not recorded until two decades after his death. It was started by Saul (Paul ) 20-30 years after his execution.

One can only draw two conclusions from the non recording of Jesus resurection at the time of his rebirth:

1) nobody cared enough to write it down at the time it happened
2) it didn't happen

Why are you saying that noboy cared enough to write it down?

sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hcri.htm

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

Some want a primary source on Jesus (Yeshua) by eye witnesses and the Bible is that source; therefore, unlike other figures of antiquity, a very authoritative primary source does exist on Jesus (Yeshua). In fact, more things have been written about Jesus (Yeshua) than have been written about any other man who has ever walked on earth.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[jewscout]

ok if this is a debate i fail to see where you are debating iris? it is just in your nature to post random stuff from these sites for chuckles?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some want a primary source on Jesus (Yeshua) by eye witnesses and the Bible is that source; ...

Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

 

[HelpMe]

the bible.and all others mentioned in the other thread concerning this topic.

/anticipates laughter.


btw, you're going a little off topic right?

 

[iris89]

Your Friend in Christ Iris89



The gospels contain so many accounts of witnesses; therefore, you should go read the 4 gospels. What Jesus (Yeshua) did, he did NOT do in a vacuum. One such account is John 1: Then Yochanan gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove, and remaining on him. 33 I myself did not know who he was, but the one who sent me to immerse in water said to me, `The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining, this is the one who immerses in the Ruach HaKodesh.' 34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God." 35 The next day, Yochanan was again standing with two of his talmidim. 36 On seeing Yeshua walking by, he said, "Look! God's lamb!" (The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.).

Now please go read the gospels in the The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., and learn for yourself.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

 

[painted wolf]

well sence the quetion is "why do some doubt the Deity of Christ" here is my answer. (as I am one who doubts the Devinity of Christ)
Miricles have been performed by many, as has virgin birth, returning from the dead and all the myrad other things that Christ was said to have done. If those others were not Dieties as well, why should Jesus be singled out as a Deity?

wa:do

 

[robtex]

Hi Everyone

Some want a primary source on Jesus (Yeshua) by eye witnesses and the Bible is that source;
Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Glad you brought that up. That is another curious thing. The Bible was first written about what time? 50 adish? Jesus was executed about 30ish ad? Paul the fella that caused the big Jesus stir didn't actually see the resurrection did he? I was reading an interesting essay on it by Dan Baker who is a member of the freedom from religious orginzation that I want to share with you (cant paste too long against forum rules) here is the link
http://www.ffrf.org/timely/rise.php

In it Dan Baker points out that there are a number of internal discreancies in the Bible as to what may or may not have happened that day.

Taking from Baker's essay he notes:

Question:
WHAT TIME DID THE WOMAN VISIT THE TOMB

answers:
Matt 28:1 "as it began to dawn (or niv version same verse, "at dawn on the first day of the week")

Mark 16:2 "very early in the morning" NIV (very early on the first day of the week just after sunrise")

Luke 24:1 "very early in the morning (NIV "on the first day of the week very early in the morning")

John 20:1 "when it was yet dark" (niv "on the first day of the week while it was still dark")

Dan Baker futher points out in the question of:

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB WHEN THEY ARRIVED

Matthew 28: 2 "one angel (niv "an angel came down from heaven and was going to the tomb)

Mark 16:5 one young man (niv "as they entered the tomb they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side and they were alarmed.")

Luke 24:4 two men (niv "while they were wondering about this 2 men in clothes that gleamed like lighting stood beside them.")

John 20:12 two angles (niv "and saw 2 angles in white, seated where Jesus body had been, one at the head the other at the foot")

Dan Baker further points out that there is a desprency as to if the tomb was open or not and he points out a plethora of other descrepencies

You should read the whole article ...by Dan Baker it was very enlighting to me.

These descrpencies tell me one thing. A couple of story makers couldn't get their story straight. Paul never saw the execution of Christ. He died via a beheading around 60ad and was writing about around 50 ad..again 20 years after Christ cruxification. Why would he be so inspired by Christ to give everything of himself of Jesus but not bother to write down any of it for 20 years? Why couldn't the various authors not get the story straight if there were eye witness and why did Mary whom is depicted in the book as being the star witness fail to write anything about it?

Paul in the Bible admits to seeing visions of Jesus in his head. He does this throughout the Bible. I tell you this fact for two reasons.

1)Paul claims to have been witness to the cruxification and rebirth of Christ but doesn't bother to write it down either for 20 years. Some inspiration

2) He had visions

In Galatians 1 versus 11-24 he gets a calling from God go to Damacus. In Acts 9:1 Paul has a vision of Jesus that causes his conversion.

Actually the fact that Paul converted that late in the Bible shows he didn't see the resurrection personally. He would have converted on the spot if he had wouldn't he?

So it brings us back to the beginning. Hundreds of men and woman supposedly see Christ executed and than resurrected and nobody bothers to record it. (Paul list the number as 500 Corinthians 1 chp 1:15 versus 6) Why?

As a footnote I would like to point out another thing that Paul said that was incorrect, in Corinthians 1 chapter 15 versus 17 he says (niv version) "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile'; you are still in your sins"

Christians faith isn't futile..many of them accept Jesus as an allegory for love to say that is so is to say to them that love is futile. As for us being still in our sins. than maybe it is a calling for man to take responsiblty for his own morality instead of passing the buck and blame to that which inspires him divinely.

sources

www.en.wikipedia.org (jesus paul, resurection
www.ffrf.org
www.biblegateway.com
www.thirdmill.org/paul2/saul_conversion.asp

 

[jewscout]

And for the last time returning from the dead doesn't make you the son of G-d or a Christ................it makes you a zombie!:jiggy:

 

[robtex]

And for the last time returning from the dead doesn't make you the son of G-d or a Christ................it makes you a zombie!:jiggy:

ummm thanks Jewscout...I knew I was missing some important point?

 

[jewscout]

ummm thanks Jewscout...I knew I was missing some important point?

Hey man i'm just trying to help you out

 

[HelpMe]

Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

bible.

 

[iris89]

Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

Many claim are made with respect the Divinity of Jesus Christ, but when we use a little reasoning on the subject it is seen as much ado about nothing.

Sure he is divine as clearly shown by common sense as follows:

The son of a dog is a dog; whereas, a son of Almighty God (YHWH) is of course a god or godlike thus divine. This is clearly shown by the meaning of the word as follows:

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective

connected with a god, or like a god:

The Ayatollah described the earthquake in Iran as a divine test.

Some fans seem to regard footballers as divine beings.

England have fallen so far behind in the championship that their only hope of victory is divine intervention (= help from God).

Just because you've been promoted that doesn't give you a divine right (= one like that of a god) to tell us all what to do.

Oxford Dictionary

divine = /d"van/ adjective (-r, -st) 1 of, from, or like God or a god; sacred. 2 colloquial excellent. verb (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. noun theologian. divining-rod dowser's forked twig. divinely adverb.

Wordsmyth Dictionary

1. a religious scholar or clergyman. Similar Words exegete , minister , cleric , clergyman , bishop , theologian , prelate , priest , religious

2. Definition 2. (cap.) God (usu. prec. by the). Synonyms Godhead {godhead (2)} , Divinity {divinity (2)} , Omnipotent {omnipotent} , Omniscient {omniscient} , God {god (2)} , Deity {deity (4)} Similar Words celestial

3. Definition 3. (sometimes cap.) the spiritual or godlike, as opposed to the earthly or worldly. Similar Words divinity

The American Heritage(r) Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. Divine

SYLLABICATION: di·vine PRONUNCIATION: /61/wavs/43/D0304300.wav/61/wavs/43/D0304300.wavd-vn ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: di·vin·er, di·vin·est

1a. Having the nature of or being a deity. b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation. c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred. 2. Superhuman; godlike. 3a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto. b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball. 4. Heavenly; perfect. NOUN: 1. A cleric. 2. A theologian. VERB: Inflected forms: di·vined, di·vin·ing, di·vines

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To foretell through or as if through the art of divination. See synonyms at foretell. 2a. To know by inspiration, intuition, or reflection. b. To guess. 3. To locate (underground water or minerals) with a divining rod; douse. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To practice divination. 2. To guess. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French devine, from Latin dvnus, divine, foreseeing, from dvus, god. See dyeu- in Appendix I. V., Middle English divinen, from Old French deviner, from Latin dvnre, from dvnus.

A very intense subject easily put to rest by a little common sense and reasoning.

Now with respect one poster who is NOT interested in learning but debating, I am NOT going to waste time doing a search that he is perfectly capable of in the four gospels of the new testament, but will supply some useful links if he really wants to know which I doubt:

http://www.studentorg.umd.edu/icf/faq/Bible_reliable.html

and,

http://www.altbapt.clara.net/workout/jesus.htm

and,

http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/jesus/jesus02.htm

and,

www.request.org.uk/main/history/jesus/jesus03.htm



and,

http://www.christistheway.com/2004/a04a04ab.html

and,

http://www.scottsdalebible.com/jesus.html [they have a person you can contact that will look up things for you, but I will NOT be your lookup encyclopedia as I do NOT have the time.]

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sure he is divine as clearly shown by common sense as follows: ...

Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

 

[robtex]

Iris89 about your discourse. Your premise Jesus is the son of God has yet to be proven this thread which makes the son of a dog arugment/son of God arguement insubstantial. Incidently, but off the suject if God impregnated a mortal in mortal terms that is rape.

The issue of the Bible as a primary source (no matter how many times you qoute it) is hard to swallow cause no matter how many versus you name the Bible still does not list eye witness except for Mary M. who did not concur independantly via her own source of writings.

Furthermore, there is stil that 20 year gap between the proposed event and the written record of it that is unaccounted for. Can you explain why a 20 year gap ?


On your three links

link # 1 consistancy does not prove accuracy. It just proves consistancy. Whatever science or archelogy is in the Bible that is consistant with current findings also has nothing to do with the proving the resurrection of christ. It has to do with the discoved archelogoy and sciences.

link # 2 is not a substaniated reference. It provided no source for its info. I am going to guess it was the Bible which again brings us back to a book written 20 years after the alleged resurrection. Is there a source from the year he was resurrected?


3) link # 3 does not name the eye witness by name. It list the Bible which again was written over 20 years after the fact.

4) # four is the most signifigant of them all. I qoute from the top of it " Virtually everything we know or can know about Jesus of Nazareth is from the 4 gospels of the New Testiment." If that could be ammended to say everything than it would be true. ..and it is exactly what I have been trying to point out to you from the start...that there is no collaborating information despite Pauls claim of 500 witnesses seeing the resurrection. 500 witness who chose not to record it and one book that was written 20 years after the alleged event. that is what you got.

to me that equals no witness.

your last link

same thing..bible only source 20 years too late. Reiterates 500 witness and concurs (by listing the bible as the only source) that none came forward as witness. incidently # 7 at the bottom is very interesting....says Christanity is not a religion but a personal (ie not public ) relationship with Him (Jesus).

# 4 is interesting too...there are no documented mircles by him. Not a single one. Don't get me wrong abbarations in science have been documented from time to time I suppose but I have never read one documented that was attrituted to Jesus.

Please again Iris89...

1) the eyewitness you claim exist--names
2) the collaborating sources more current than 20 years to the bible and primary in nature.

 

[iris89]

Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

Many claim are made with respect the Divinity of Jesus Christ, but when we use a little reasoning on the subject it is seen as much ado about nothing.

Sure he is divine as clearly shown by common sense as follows:

The son of a dog is a dog; whereas, a son of Almighty God (YHWH) is of course a god or godlike thus divine. This is clearly shown by the meaning of the word as follows:

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective

connected with a god, or like a god:

The Ayatollah described the earthquake in Iran as a divine test.

Some fans seem to regard footballers as divine beings.

England have fallen so far behind in the championship that their only hope of victory is divine intervention (= help from God).

Just because you've been promoted that doesn't give you a divine right (= one like that of a god) to tell us all what to do.

Oxford Dictionary

divine = /d"van/ adjective (-r, -st) 1 of, from, or like God or a god; sacred. 2 colloquial excellent. verb (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. noun theologian. divining-rod dowser's forked twig. divinely adverb.

Wordsmyth Dictionary

1. a religious scholar or clergyman. Similar Words exegete , minister , cleric , clergyman , bishop , theologian , prelate , priest , religious

2. Definition 2. (cap.) God (usu. prec. by the). Synonyms Godhead {godhead (2)} , Divinity {divinity (2)} , Omnipotent {omnipotent} , Omniscient {omniscient} , God {god (2)} , Deity {deity (4)} Similar Words celestial

3. Definition 3. (sometimes cap.) the spiritual or godlike, as opposed to the earthly or worldly. Similar Words divinity

The American Heritage(r) Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. Divine

SYLLABICATION: di·vine PRONUNCIATION: /61/wavs/43/D0304300.wav/61/wavs/43/D0304300.wavd-vn ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: di·vin·er, di·vin·est

1a. Having the nature of or being a deity. b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation. c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred. 2. Superhuman; godlike. 3a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto. b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball. 4. Heavenly; perfect. NOUN: 1. A cleric. 2. A theologian. VERB: Inflected forms: di·vined, di·vin·ing, di·vines

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To foretell through or as if through the art of divination. See synonyms at foretell. 2a. To know by inspiration, intuition, or reflection. b. To guess. 3. To locate (underground water or minerals) with a divining rod; douse. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To practice divination. 2. To guess. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French devine, from Latin dvnus, divine, foreseeing, from dvus, god. See dyeu- in Appendix I. V., Middle English divinen, from Old French deviner, from Latin dvnre, from dvnus.

A very intense subject easily put to rest by a little common sense and reasoning.

Another poster keeps asking about eye witness accounts with respect Jesus (Yeshua), but I do NOT plan to be his look up encyclopedia as he can go to the 4 Gospels and look them up as well as I can; and he is NOT in my opinion interested in learning anything but is just into debating a worthless pursuit in my opinion. I am trying to assist all to know more about the Bible and my leader and savior Jesus (Yeshua) and NOT into debating, but not into answering questions and/or looking things up with no useful purpose in mind, that is a total waste of time. He probably believes in Plato, Alexander the Great, the Pharos of Egypt, and others much less documented and mostly without eye witness accounts, but chooses to be difficult with the most documented of all, Jesus (Yeshua), and this in my opinion is absolute absurdity. However, if he really wants to learn, here are some places besides the 4 gospels to start his search:

www.resurrection-of-jesus.com/

and,

www.altbapt.clara.net/workout/jesus.htm

and,

www.studentorg.umd.edu/icf/faq/Bible-reliable.html

and,

www.seeking-god.co.uk/id80.htm

and,

www.request.org.uk/main/history/jesus/jesus02.htm

and,

www.scottsdalebible.com/jesus.html [this link even has an email address of someone who will do your digging for you, now go to it]

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[linwood]

Do you have any words of your own you would like to post?

For a change?