Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

[iris89]

Hi linwood

I am an independent researcher and my articles are research products I write myself, except in the few cases I use others works which I clearly identify as such.

You can read many of my articles at the following links:

Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

and;

Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209 [note the second article was written by my PhD Theologian husband, not me]

and;

Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

and;

Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

and;

Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58

and;

Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic

and;

Discourse on John 8:58:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

and;

Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

and;

When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=204

and,

Discourse on the Bible:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?p=46520#46520

and,

Muslims Do Not Comprehend The Bible:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5096

and,

Let's Have Reality in Translation:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207

and,

Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190

and,

DISCOURSE ON THE MISCONCEPTION WITH RESPECT 'I AM'
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185

And,

Discourse On The Holy Spirit:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=184

and,

Discourse on Trinitarians Being Blinded to The Truth:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178

and,

Rebuke To A Trinitarian, Trinity is God Dishonoring False Doctrine

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176

and,

Discourse On The Trinity of Reasons That Prove The Trinity a Myth:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148

and,

Does the Apostle Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God (YHWH)?
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145

And,

Discourse on Jeremiah 23:5-6 and the Confusion on YHWH Tsidqenu and Its Equivalents:
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127

And,

Civilization and the Bible

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5075

and,

STANDARDS ARE PROMULGATED NOT PROVEN BUT USED:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5076

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[painted wolf]

so again... what makes Jesus more of a Deity than any of the others who have done the things he did? Like coming back from the dead, healing, being born of a virgin et cet. Are they all Deities as well or are they all Jesus in disguise?

wa:do

 

[HelpMe]

Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

bible.

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

As I said previously, Another poster keeps asking about eye witness accounts with respect Jesus (Yeshua), but I do NOT plan to be his look up encyclopedia as he can go to the 4 Gospels and look them up as well as I can; and he is NOT in my opinion interested in learning anything but is just into debating a worthless pursuit in my opinion. I am trying to assist all to know more about the Bible and my leader and savior Jesus (Yeshua) and NOT into debating, but not into answering questions and/or looking things up with no useful purpose in mind, that is a total waste of time. He probably believes in Plato, Alexander the Great, the Pharos of Egypt, and others much less documented and mostly without eye witness accounts, but chooses to be difficult with the most documented of all, Jesus (Yeshua), and this in my opinion is absolute absurdity. However, if he really wants to learn, here are some places besides the 4 gospels to start his search:

www.resurrection-of-jesus.com/

and,

www.altbapt.clara.net/workout/jesus.htm

and,

http://www.studentorg.umd.edu/icf/f...e-reliable.html

and,

www.seeking-god.co.uk/id80.htm

and,

http://www.request.org.uk/main/hist...sus/jesus02.htm

and,

www.scottsdalebible.com/jesus.html [this link even has an email address of someone who will do your digging for you, now go to it]

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

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[Jayhawker Soule]

bible.

Read them. Whose testimony did you have in mind?

 

[Sunstone]

As I said previously, Another poster keeps asking about eye witness accounts with respect Jesus (Yeshua), but I do NOT plan to be his look up encyclopedia as he can go to the 4 Gospels and look them up as well as I can; and he is NOT in my opinion interested in learning anything but is just into debating a worthless pursuit in my opinion. I am trying to assist all to know more about the Bible and my leader and savior Jesus (Yeshua) and NOT into debating, but not into answering questions and/or looking things up with no useful purpose in mind, that is a total waste of time.

If you are not into debating, what are doing posting in the debate forums?

 

[iris89]

Hi Sunstone

I am not into debating, I am only interested in helping others know the facts. Debating is a useless waste of time as no one learns anything from it and the debaters are not at all interested in fact or truth.

Someone moved my original post from the Christian discussion forum to here; in fact they moved several. I will NOT debate, but only provide facts and enter into discussions. I am a true Christian and my leader and savior Jesus (Yeshua) was into dispersing facts and not useless debates and so am I. I have provided sources in line with that for all to go to for facts and that is what they should do.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

[/size]

If you are not into debating, what are doing posting in the debate forums?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I am not into debating, I am only interested in helping others know the facts. Debating is a useless waste of time as no one learns anything from it and the debaters are not at all interested in fact or truth.

Iris, while I respect that you have no interest in debating, please remember that what is considered fact by some is not always considered fact by others. You speak of those who debate not being interested in either fact or truth, but some might consider that you are reciprocating in kind. Your truth is not always their truth, and if you are not willing to listen and attempt to understand those with opposing viewpoints, you are not working toward what one might consider the greater good.

 

[HelpMe]

Read them. Whose testimony did you have in mind?

you would make a good catholic.

 

[iris89]

Hi FeathersinHair

You will find if you check my articles that they all have the sources given which are in most cases the Bible, the ultimate standard. I do NOT put out opinions, but well researched articles. I use for items dealing with history for example well respected and renown sources such as history books, encyclopedias, the Talmud of the west, and other historical documents. Go read my 2 nd. and 3 article at the following link and you will see it is full of resources so all can check whether what I have written is fact or not. Infact I encourage all to check, expecially by references to the Bible in keeping with Acts 17:11, "Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so." (Douay Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB). Remember the truth shall make you free per John 8:32, "And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free." (DRCB). Now be sure to go to the following and check everything I say:

Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[oracle]

At some point, I don't believe that there's anything to be saved from, except for illogical, superstitous, and superficial beliefs. I think the message of Jesus has been very well distorted and the Christianity of today has little if any resemblance of the one that existed 2000 years ago. The original message from what I have been researching is that Jesus was trying to show that we have a unified connection with God, and on a higher spiritual level, no one is better or greater than each other, there is no status in the kingdom of heaven, we are all Whole [ONE], we are all one and the same. God is everywhere and within everything and is not a status that is gained, that would be hubris. Jesus in his own words, never said he was God, he said that the Father was in him, and he was in the Father. In other words, he was explaining his unified connection with God.

divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective
connected with a god, or like a god:

My definition of divinity is infinity, it is a connection of wholeness between everyone and everything, nothing finite can grasp that attribute.

The kingdom of heaven is the totality of existence. It's something not physically perceived, only spiritually realized, and that realization is of Wholeness. There's no status, no material possessions, nothing of the sort in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus uses two different key descriptions when describing the kingdom of heaven, and that is singularity [Wholeness] and diversity. For example: many small fish [diversity] in contrast to one big fish[singularity], one tiny seed[singularity] in contrast to a large tree with branches[diversity], a small portion of yeast[singulairty] in comparison to a large loaf of bread[diversity], treasures which moth and dust destroy[diversity] in comparison to one pearl[singularity]. Although, this is just the observations from my current research, I tend to look for subtle patterns.

In the Gospel of Thomas however, some of the descriptions of kingdom of heaven is more obsure, however some of the same things apply. Also in the Gospel of Thomas Jesus implies that the kingdom is everywhere.

 

[iris89]

Hi oracleI am glad to hear from you. You are on the right track when you say,

I think the message of Jesus has been very well distorted and the Christianity of today has little if any resemblance of the one that existed 2000 years ago.

Most religions today that claim to be Christian actually bare little resemblance to the teachings and practices of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ, unfortunately.

Am I surprized? No, not really, the fact that this would be the case and that his true followers would be small in number was emphized in the Bible. Mainstream Christianity to which most so called Christians belong. First let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!

Most have clearly gone astray and their main interest is money and power. To learn more go to the following links and read the facts in some long articles of mine:

Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

and,

Discourse on the False God (YHWH) Defying Doctrine of Nicolaitans:

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=99.topic

You can send me an email or private message if you want more information, I can send you a lot as email attachments.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[oracle]

I don't know if you're responding to my input about wholeness and diversity, if you are, it seems that you are not understanding the whole concept. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus says, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father." "I am your disciple." For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."

There are two key things here, wholeness and division. It may be relavent to the wide and narrow gate, however it's not talking about the wide and narrow gate in the way that you implied it.

Mankind is self divided and diverse, the cause of that has to do with imperfections in society such as money, a heiarchy, egoism, etc, which conceals a different reality. He was trying to show a spiritual reality, that spiritually none of these phsycial and worldly things apply but all people are one and the same, there is no difference, and that makes us unified.
Hence, the whole underlying meaning behind communion, there was ONE loaf, ONE cup shared among them [which has become an utterly meaningless routine in Churches] both the bread and the wine represents more than just flesh and blood [from what I believe, there is even deeper symbolism underlying the body and the blood]. Notice in other areas of the NT [corinthians I believe], it's mentioned as ONE body and ONE spirit in referance to communion. Blood represents spirit, that is the spirit of God. So does water, and these are symbols representing unification, hence the word communion. I believe this is a HUGE missing cogwheel in the clock of salvation. The death on the cross was only part of it, but Forgiveness of sins is by taking part in that unification, achieving at-one-ment with everyone and everything around you, and that is the reconcilliation and forgiveness between everyone and self by the spirit of God which unites all things. It's about breaking down the barriers that cause mankind to self-divide. It makes complete sense to me, it makes more sense than just his death alone as means for salvation. But of course that's just my speculation.

 

[huajiro]

I think most people doubt Christ because they can.

Others doubt him because of the bad things they have seen in Christianity and feel that he represents it.

 

[iris89]

Hi oracle

FIRST, the Gospel of Thomas is an uninspired book which is NOT part of the Bible. You will find more information on this in my article at:

Discourse on a Lost Book of the Bible:
http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=123.topic
hI huajiro

FIRST, You need to read my documentary on Christ at:

Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[oracle]

I think most people doubt Christ because they can.

Others doubt him because of the bad things they have seen in Christianity and feel that he represents it.

I think the former is illogical, and the latter I think somewhat applies but not generally. I think Christians represent Christ not vice versa, and few Christians ever do but many exercise hyprocrisy rather than integrity.

 

[oracle]

Hi oracle

FIRST, the Gospel of Thomas is an uninspired book which is NOT part of the Bible. You will find more information on this in my article at:

Discourse on a Lost Book of the Bible:
http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=123.topic
hI huajiro

FIRST, You need to read my documentary on Christ at:

Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

How do you know it's not inspired? I already know it is non-canonical. Just because it wasn't canon-ized doesn't mean it's not truth. I think you need to research more into the history of Christianity. The Book of Enoch wasn't Canon-ized, however theres referances to it in the book of Jude. Does that mean it's not divinely inspired?

 

[oracle]

the 5 Gospel parallels:

The Gospel of Thomas as compared to the 4 Gospels:
http://www.utoronto.ca/religion/synopsis/gth.htm

 

[oracle]

Iris89,
what I have learned from this forum is that if you make a claim, you need to support your claim with factual and concrete evidense. Saying that the whole bible is divinely inspired is not fact, cannot be supported with evidense, and therefore is not debatable. There's people that use logic and reason rather than blind faith in this forum, you're talking to a whole different crowd here. All the links you've posted, this is not effective because it's unlikey that someone is going to take the time to read them all, let alone read one. Take it from me, I did the same thing and it's just not a good approach if you want to get people to listen to you. This is a debate forum. [This is in referance to another thread] Try not to get negetively defensive when you're debating your views, that only makes people lose respect for you and the statements you claim. I've read some of your articles and they don't seem to have much support behind them, although I appreciate your industry and effort. For me it's the motive and intention that counts. Psychologically, it's all about perception. People don't percieve things the way you do, but if you want them to see from your perspective, you're gonna have to be more diplomatic. Part of being diplomatic is listening and being open minded to other people's arguements.
___________________________

 

[iris89]

Hi Oracle



FIRST, I am posting to assist all in knowing the truth and NOT to debate as you appear wish to do.



SECOND, There are over two hundred apocryphal books pretending to be legitimate books of the New Testament which they are not. They were NOT written by whom they claim to be written by, but by groups who had their own personal agenda. One such group was the Gnostics who produced approximately 50 books of the apocryphal. None of these books are inspired, nor are any of them included in any recognized Bible canon.



With respect the apocryphal book, the Gospel of St. Thomas, it was but one of the many none-inspired books produced by the Gnostics and pretended to cover the boy hood of Christ which was NOT covered in any of the Canonical inspired writings.



The Catholic Encyclopedia says this of the apocryphal Gnostic book,

Gospel of St. Thomas

There are two Greek and two Latin redactions of it, differing much from one another. A Syriac translation is also found. A Gospel of Thomas was known to many Fathers. The earliest to mention it is St. Hippolytus (155-235), who informs us that it was in use among the Naasenes, a sect of Syrian Gnostics, and cites a sentence which does not appear in our extant text. Origen relegates it to the heretical writings. St. Cyril of Jerusalem says it was employed by the Manichæans; Eusebius rejects it as heretical and spurious. It is clear that the original Pseudo-Thomas was of heterodox origin, and that it dates from the second century; the citations of Hippolytus establish that it was palpably Gnostic in tenor. But in the extant Thomas Gospel there is no formal or manifest Gnosticism. The prototype was evidently expurgated by a Catholic hand, who, however, did not succeed in eradicating all traces of its original taint. The apocryphon in all its present forms extravagantly magnifies the Divine aspect of the boy Jesus. In bold contrast to the Infancy narrative of St. Luke, where the Divinity is almost effaced, the author makes the Child a miracle-worker and intellectual prodigy, and in harmony with Docetism, leaves scarcely more than the appearance of humanity in Him. This pseudo-Gospel is unique among the apocrypha, inasmuch as it describes a part of the hidden life of Our Lord between the ages of five and twelve. But there is much that is fantastic and offensive in the pictures of the exploits of the boy Jesus. His youthful miracles are worked at times out of mere childish fancy, as when He formed clay pigeons, and at a clap of His hands they flew away as living birds; sometimes, from beneficence; but again from a kind of harsh retribution. [source - The Catholic Encyclopedia]

THIRD, You, not I, are making unsupported rash claims when you say,

if you make a claim, you need to support your claim with factual and concrete evidense. Saying that the whole bible is divinely inspired is not fact, cannot be supported with evidense, and therefore is not debatable.

Which you fail to support in any way. Yet no Bible canon, neither Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Mormon, or Complete Jewish Canon [The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.] in any way supports your contention. In fact, they are all in agreement on the genuine, inspired canon of the New Testament, and for support of this check any King James, New King James, Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, New World Translation, American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version, New International Version, New American Standard Bible, The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., etc.



FOURTH, I care not what crowd I am speaking to. My objective is still the same to enable all to know the truth in keeping with John 8:32, “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (, The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.). If you are not interested in the truth and reality and want to believe Gnostic writings, that is your problem and not mine.



FIFTH, I do not care if this is a debate form as I did not put my post on this form but on the Christian discussion form as I do not debate as it is not Christian. So I will only discuss and not debate. I will give you the facts and you can ignore them at your own risk. I can not get defensive with debating my views as I do NOT debate. I am an independent researcher and I put forth the facts. Also, my articles are well supported; in fact, more so than any of the others I see on this or any other BB.



In fact, one individual called my articles found at:



Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209



And at,



Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic



The best supported research products that he had ever seen on any BB.



SIXTH, It is not important whether individuals perceive things the way I do, I am NOT the standard; to wit, the Bible is the Standard. I just put forth what I find in there or in renown historical sources. I do NOT put forth my opinion like most posters as they count for nothing.



Your Friend in Christ Iris89