Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

[Pah]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8)
Please provide evidence of a single eye witness or eye witness account.

bible.

NOW you get the laughter :biglaugh:

 

[iris89]

Hi pah

?????????????????????

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Pah]

NOW you get the laughter :biglaugh:

This, iris89, is in response to post 27 and 43. Number 43 contined a quote from helpme and number 27 contianed the comment from helpme "anticipates laughter."

The meaning? - there is no biblical eyewitness account of any biblical event and certainly not the events that define Christianity. Would you like to list those that do? - perhaps even repeating them from previous posts? Or, perhaps helpme would like to answer the challange.

 

[oracle]

Hi Oracle



FIRST, I am posting to assist all in knowing the truth and NOT to debate as you appear wish to do.

SECOND, There are over two hundred apocryphal books pretending to be legitimate books of the New Testament which they are not. They were NOT written by whom they claim to be written by, but by groups who had their own personal agenda. One such group was the Gnostics who produced approximately 50 books of the apocryphal. None of these books are inspired, nor are any of them included in any recognized Bible canon.

Prove it

With respect the apocryphal book, the Gospel of St. Thomas, it was but one of the many none-inspired books produced by the Gnostics and pretended to cover the boy hood of Christ which was NOT covered in any of the Canonical inspired writings.

Prove it
Also the Gospel of Thomas does not cover Jesus's boyhood.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says this of the apocryphal Gnostic book,

You are taking information from biased scources

Which you fail to support in any way. Yet no Bible canon, neither Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Mormon, or Complete Jewish Canon [The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.] in any way supports your contention. In fact, they are all in agreement on the genuine, inspired canon of the New Testament, and for support of this check any King James, New King James, Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, New World Translation, American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version, New International Version, New American Standard Bible, The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., etc.

Well duh, since these are all variations of the canon. It still doesn't mean the canon was divinely inspired.

FOURTH, I care not what crowd I am speaking to. My objective is still the same to enable all to know the truth in keeping with John 8:32, “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (, The Complete Jewish Bible - Copyright 1998 by David H. Stern. Published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.). If you are not interested in the truth and reality and want to believe Gnostic writings, that is your problem and not mine.

So if you don't care about the crowd your speaking to, then obviously your intentions are selfish. I don't consider my beliefs to be a problem, I don't have a problem in the first place. I simply deny the fact that a voilent act condones more voilence.

FIFTH, I do not care if this is a debate form as I did not put my post on this form but on the Christian discussion form as I do not debate as it is not Christian. So I will only discuss and not debate. I will give you the facts and you can ignore them at your own risk. I can not get defensive with debating my views as I do NOT debate. I am an independent researcher and I put forth the facts. Also, my articles are well supported; in fact, more so than any of the others I see on this or any other BB.

Facts? What facts? You have given only opinions. Ignore them at my own risk? Lol. I was born and raised Christian, so I already know the whole theology. Answer this question, does the death of Christ condone the murder of 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust (or the Shoah for those who are Jewish)? If so then tell me why, and give a logical explanation.

 

[iris89]

Hi pah



Here are just a few examples of eye witness accounts in the New Testament:



Acts 229-32,: Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set [one] upon his throne; 31 he foreseeing [this] spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.” (American Standard Version; ASV).



Acts 3:14-15, “But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.” (ASV)



Acts 5:29-33, “But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. 31 Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these things; and [so is] the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 33 But they, when they heard this, were cut to the heart, and minded to slay them.” (ASV)



Acts 7:55-57, “ But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.” (ASV)



Acts 10:38-39, “even] Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.” (ASV)



2 Timothy 2:1-2, “Thou therefore, my child, be strengthened in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things which thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” (ASV)



Hebrews 12:1-3, “Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that hath endured such gainsaying of sinners against himself, that ye wax not weary, fainting in your souls.” (ASV).



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hearsay, at best, in stories woven decades later.

Luke was an eyewitness to nothing of Jesus.
The author of Hebrews is unknown.
The Pastorals are widely considered to be late and pseudoepigraphic.

 

[iris89]

Hi Deut. 32.8



First the greatest group of evidence points to the Apostle Paul as the author of Hebrews due to its style, every writer including myself has a distinct style. For more information, go to the following.



http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/heb/who.htm



http://www.starlightresearch.com/Hebrews3.html



http://www.akjb.org/Who%20Wrote%20Hebrews.html



If you do not wish to believe God’s (YHWH’s) word that is your right to be in error, but I know it is true and I believe it. One can always be a critic and fault finder with anything, but that does not change the facts as stated at 2 Timothy 3:16, “Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.” (American Standard Version; ASV)

Bear in mind 2 John 1:9, "Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son." (ASV)



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[anders]

"ssulbi" definition:

Backbone; Loins; Spine. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318
Thus, we have this Literal rendering of 86:7…

He comes out/emerges/appears from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones.

Dear iris,

You have proved that you don't know what "proof" means, but keep on quoting from a mythology book without giving any hard evidence from reliable outside sources. Now you also prove that you know nothing of the Arabic language.

Anybody with access to a dictionary of Arabic will be able to tell you that the root giving the verbs Saluba and Saliba ('to be hard', etc.), whence Sulb 'backbone', is very obviously different from Salaba 'crucify'.

You don't even have to know a single word of Arabic to realize which rendering is the more acceptable: "Proceeding from between The backbone and the ribs", and "Proceeding from between The crucifixion and the ribs". The first one is the translation of A. Yusuf Ali, considered to be one of the most correct and faithful ones, and the second one is according to your reference.

 

[oracle]

Iris, blind faith is for the blind. Unfortunately for you, the people in this forum are not blind. Also, try extending your sources beyond dictionaries and encyclopedias. I would never take your research seriously.

 

[Pah]

iris89,

2 Timothy 2:1-2, “Thou therefore, my child, be strengthened in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things which thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” (ASV)

Timothy is attributed to Paul, is it not? Paul met Christ, for the first time, on the road. Paul is not a eyewitness to Christ - Christ was revealed to Paul.

Paul's use of witness is exactly the same as the Christian that comes to my door when he or she witnesses to me.

I would suggest that you distinguish the use of your "witness" that it does not mean testimony to a faith.

 

[Green Gaia]

I don't doubt the divinity of Jesus, but neither do I doubt mine and everyone else's.

 

[iris89]

Hi anders, oracle, and pah



FIRST, The old testament was not written in Arabic, but in ancient Hebrew; therefore, root words in Arabic have no bearing on the subject and/or writing in the Bible so who cares what their words are?



SECOND, Some forget that the Bible is the Standard that our creator provided for all of mankind to live by and to know about him. He inspired faithful men to act as his scribes to put the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men. For more information, go to:



Civilization:

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=91.topic



And,



STANDARDS ARE PROMULGATED NOT PROVEN BUT USED:

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=92.topic



THIRD, It is not my problem, but yours if you do not believe the Bible. So go handle your problem.



FOURTH, With respect the conversion of Saul a hater of the followers of Christ to a follower of Christ, Acts 9:1-22, "Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, either men or women, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 "Who are You, Lord?" he said. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," He replied. 6 "But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days, and did not eat or drink.

10 Now in Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Here I am, Lord!" he said. 11 "Get up and go to the street called Straight," the Lord said to him, "to the house of Judas, and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, since he is praying there. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and placing his hands on him so he may regain his sight." 13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has authority here from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go! For this man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before Gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel. 16 I will certainly show him how much he must suffer for My name!" 17 So Ananias left and entered the house. Then he placed his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road you were traveling, has sent me so you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 At once something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 And after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul was with the disciples in Damascus for some days. 20 Immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: "He is the Son of God." 21 But all who heard him were astounded and said, "Isn't this the man who, in Jerusalem, was destroying those who called on this name, and then came here for the purpose of taking them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22 But Saul grew more capable, and kept confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that this One is the Messiah." (The Holman Christian Standard Bible).

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some forget that the Bible is the Standard that our creator provided for all of mankind to live by and to know about him. He inspired faithful men to act as his scribes to put the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men.

And you know this to be true based on what ?

 

[anders]

FIRST, The old testament was not written in Arabic, but in ancient Hebrew; therefore, root words in Arabic have no bearing on the subject and/or writing in the Bible so who cares what their words are?

So why did you post a faulty Qur'an exegesis if it has no bearing on the subject?

 

[iris89]

Hi anders



I have no idea what you are talking about when you say,

So why did you post a faulty Qur'an exegesis if it has no bearing on the subject?

I think you may be confused as I have given no critical analysis of any Sura of the Quran. I have only done critical analysis of some scriptures of God's (YHWH's) word, the Bible.



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[chris9178]

Hey Iris,

You've really done some homework haven't you?
So why not debate? It's practically what your doing right now.
At least you're willing to go and research what you believe. I don't think anybody here can fault you for that.

 

[oracle]

Hey Iris,

You've really done some homework haven't you?
So why not debate? It's practically what your doing right now.
At least you're willing to go and research what you believe. I don't think anybody here can fault you for that.

I think real research would extend outside of biased sources, dictionaries, and encyclopedias. Iris limits herself to a small and conservative database. Also, there's a clear distinction between fact and opinion, which for Iris, there is is no clarity but her opinions from her perspective are factual information. I appreciate industry, but there's nothing industrial in being close-minded.

SECOND, Some forget that the Bible is the Standard that our creator provided for all of mankind to live by and to know about him.

So what about those that do not or have never had access to a bible? According to this statement, they will never be able to live up to the standards. How unfortunate....

Truth is immanent, and it is also revealed through nature.

If you put the bible out in the wind and rain, the words will soon decay, fall apart, and blow away. My bible is the wind and rain.

 

[chris9178]

I think real research would extend outside of biased sources, dictionaries, and encyclopedias. Iris limits herself to a small and conservative database. Also, there's a clear distinction between fact and opinion, which for Iris, there is is no clarity but her opinions from her perspective are factual information. I appreciate industry, but there's nothing industrial in being close-minded.

I see, because her research shows evidences that you don't agree with then it is automatically designated as "conservative database". That's really open-minded of you........

You know, to go and label things off because they don't fit into your belief system is ridiculous. You could show a little more character by at least agreeing that it's good that she's making an attempt to research her beliefs. Just because this is a debate forum dosn't mean you have to a lousy retort to anything said.

So tell me, how is it you have the audacity to try and belittle what she/he has learned, when you yourself haven't given anything of substance at all?
I believe

what I have learned from this forum is that if you make a claim, you need to support your claim with factual and concrete evidense.

Was one of your quotes. Well, what place should you have in this forum? You've provided zero evidence, or proof to your counter-claims! Yes... let's hear you preach more on close-minded people....

Now I don't agree with all that Iris said, but I do encourage her research into what she believes, and I will give her due praise for the time she's put into it.

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

I do my research in well known respected publications such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books, ancient manuscripts (MS), respected newspapers, i.e., Wall Street Journal & the London Times & etc. I do not use off-beat radical sources as many do. I do NOT put out opinions, but only research products.

I do not participate in debates as these are only ego stroking and NOT learning exercises.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do my research in well known respected publications such as dictionaries, ...

Ya gotta love it. You've yet to tell us why you insist the Moses authored Genesis at least a decade prior to the Exodus. Your research leaves much to be desired.