Why do some people who hate Jews love Israel?

[Nakosis]

I believe atheistic apologetics are worse.

They can be. Especially if atheism becomes religious or political.

 

[firedragon]

They can be. Especially if atheism becomes religious or political.

People turn atheism into tribalism. They enjoy the polemics of each other and sometimes are too quick to come to the others aid with no context. The research is done after pledging support, and never conceded. It is religious dogmatism too many times. In my lifes experience, they are far worse than the so called theists.

 

[firedragon]

So would you define his examples as "rare exceptions" or "utterly false"?

Not relevant to his claim.

 

[Harel13]

Not relevant to his claim.

But your claim is that they were living in peace for a thousand years.

 

[firedragon]

But your claim is that they were living in peace for a thousand years.

Absolutely. But in context of his claim.

 

[Harel13]

Absolutely. But in context of his claim.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that holds. His claim was that fighting between Jews and Muslims is rooted in the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael. You appear to suggest that fighting only began in the 20th century, when this does not appear to be the case. Or do you define these events as "bullying" or something similar, but not "fighting" (because the Jews generally didn't hit back)?

 

[Colt]

Ok. So where are your links to contradict mine. Where are your videos? So because he is a "leftist Jew" his opinion on the matter (mind you, he has a lot of antisemitism thrown his way on the show) doesn't matter?

Can you substantiate your claim outside the realm of opinions? Like a research article or something verifiable? I suspect you can't. You're one of those "you're wrong, I'm right because you're a leftist" that is usually how right-wing conservative logic works.

You made a general accusation about Christians supporting Israel but hateing Jews. Where are these people?

 

[Colt]

Great cut and paste from wikipedia. Super research.

Cut and paste doesn't make facts go away. You were wrong but still denying it.

 

[Colt]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that holds. His claim was that fighting between Jews and Muslims is rooted in the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael. You appear to suggest that fighting only began in the 20th century, when this does not appear to be the case. Or do you define these events as "bullying" or something similar, but not "fighting" (because the Jews generally didn't hit back)?

He's bluffing! Its widely known that this schism between Semitic cousins has been going on as far back as Abraham. As the Israelites coalesced into an ethnic, religious community and nation, the stage was set for conflict with surrounding communities. The rise of Islam among Ishmaels descendants and subsequent differences with Judaism is well documented.

 

[firedragon]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that holds. His claim was that fighting between Jews and Muslims is rooted in the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael. You appear to suggest that fighting only began in the 20th century, when this does not appear to be the case. Or do you define these events as "bullying" or something similar, but not "fighting" (because the Jews generally didn't hit back)?

So can you please provide these?

1. Whats the evidence that there is an "Age old infighting because of Isaac and Ishmael" presented by the person you have opted to assist even prior to understanding the context which you have done just now.

2. I didnt suggest that fighting began "only" in the 20th century. I said "it changed in the 20th century". So please show me prior to the 20th century, the Christians were supporting the Jews with no infighting, while the Muslims had "age old" infighting with the Jews. What I want you to show is, where your friend you are supporting has shown evidence for this. Be specific. Not at intervals, not specific matters, but "Age Old infighting".

3. Maybe you are intending to make Jews innocent and Muslims always some monster judging by the comment you made about Jews generally not hitting back and Muslims bullying etc. But show me a 1000 years of eternal bullying and Jews not "hitting back" by Muslims, and not Christians, which part you have surprisingly or strangely missed, and also provide the evidence provided by your friend you intend to defend clearly.

So please try to respond in context of the whole text I have written above rather than cherry picking or misrepresenting. I am not saying you do because I dont know you, but as a request.

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Cut and paste doesn't make facts go away. You were wrong but still denying it.

No no. I accept. Its fantastic research. Great.

 

[Harel13]

1. Whats the evidence that there is an "Age old infighting because of Isaac and Ishmael" presented by the person you have opted to assist even prior to understanding the context which you have done just now.

I take it you don't accept the bible as evidence, right?

the Christians were supporting the Jews with no infighting, while the Muslims had "age old" infighting with the Jews.

Was that his claim?

3. Maybe you are intending to make Jews innocent and Muslims always some monster judging by the comment you made about Jews generally not hitting back and Muslims bullying etc.

Nope. Just trying to figure out how you define the events he mentioned (and there are others he didn't). That was my first question to you.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'd say fundamentalist Christians don't hate Jews but do tend to believe Judaism is antiquated. Christians are taught not to hate anyone, so hate is not an option. Martin Luther is an exception and also the people living in the time of the Reformation. Luther did somehow believe in hating Jews. There are, yes, exceptions. Ballpark no. Maybe the KKK is different, but I don't know anything about that group.

Support for Israel it is often based on certain scripture verses interpreted in a politically active way. For example Genesis 12:3 where the L-RD says to Abraham "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." So there is an impetus not to curse Abraham and to bless him, and there is an interpretation that this means supporting the formation of Israel and supporting that country. Many verses in the bible are added to this one. It doesn't amount to a love of Jews or an understanding of Jews, but its not hate either.

Looking at church web sites and denominational web sites you will generally not see support Israel or Jews as a requirement or creed. It is not a plank in the faith to support the nation of Israel, but you will see it in various TV ministries, hear it mentioned by speakers in churches, see it in Christian bookstores, hear it on the 700 Club.

A lot of churches will pip up a donation to help Jews trying to escape from some country to get to Israel, such as Russia during its oppressive periods or other countries...many other countries. As a result of my connection with churches I have gotten mailings asking for money to help Israel (the country). These range from helping Jews migrate to Israel to helping people in Israel to plant trees to other initiatives. The mailings will say it is a Judeo-Christian initiative or that its the church reaching out to help Jews or something like that. Some of the initiatives have been for reaching the Jews for Christ, because many of these Christians believe that Jews need to accept Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

I take it you don't accept the bible as evidence, right?

If you believe islam existed at that time, and there was "age old" infighting from that time, no problem. Lets take a look.

Was that his claim?

Thats based on what I said.

Nope. Just trying to figure out how you define the events he mentioned (and there are others he didn't). That was my first question to you.

The events he mentioned are during a particular time and not proven to be "age old infighting" because of Isaac and Ishmael.

 

[sun rise]

Most zionists are also anti-semites.

All the zionists I know are Jewish. So you're asserting that Jews hate themselves???

 

[firedragon]

All the zionists I know are Jewish. So you're asserting that Jews hate themselves???

See. I said "Semites". I think you are misquoting me, but innocently. No worries sun rise.

Arabs are semites.

 

[Viker]

I typically see this among so-called Christians but this behavior applies to anyone of this behavior.

I think it's been mentioned. So sorry if so. It's possibly because of the old saying about "an enemy of my enemy". And another oldie, politics make strange bedfellows.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You made a general accusation about Christians supporting Israel but hateing Jews. Where are these people?

Read it again in context I said so-called. Anyone can call themselves "Christian" or "Muslim" their actions is what separates them from actualists of that particular faith.