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Why Do Theists Believe In God?

nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
Seriously? I've never in my life known a Mormon who has referred to The Book of Mormon as a Bible.

My understanding is that the word "Bible" comes from the Latin "biblia sacra," which means "holy books." I guess it you want to get really technical, any collection of holy books could be considered to be a bible. Still, I believe that with the word "Bible" having a meaning that is so universally understood to mean the Old and New Testaments used by Christians, it would be misleading at the very least to apply the word "bible" to any other collection of sacred writings. Latter-day Saints definitely don't refer to all four of our books of sacred writings as being four bibles.

No, it's not. There are, in fact, several instances The Book of Mormon itself where its purposes are mentioned. Its central purpose, however, is found on the title page: “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ..." From its first page to its last, Jesus Christ is the book’s central character and that his divinity is its central message. The subtitle of the book is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." I've heard various criticisms of this phrase over the years, but none of them make much sense to me. Why wouldn't we welcome any writings that testify of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer of the world. And why would anyone object to God's word being taught in places other than in the Holy Land?

The Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 29:3-11) explains it in this way:

And because my words shall hiss forth -- many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
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I pointed out a contradiction between the sacred writings of LDS and the Bible, but you did not address it. Did you see it?
Bible: The soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Acts 3:23
The Book of Mormon: The soul could never die - Alma 42:9
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
nPeace said:
I pointed out a contradiction between the sacred writings of LDS and the Bible, but you did not address it. Did you see it?
Bible: The soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Acts 3:23
The Book of Mormon: The soul could never die - Alma 42:9
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I'm afraid this is not a contradiction. This is a difference in our interpretation of the Bible, and the choice of words that are used. Briefly -- since my time today is extremely limited -- the Bible teaches that when God breathed life into Adam (i.e. placed his spirit in his body), Adam "became a living soul." So, we believe that a soul is the entity which results from the union of a body and a spirit. It is the spirit which we believe can never die; we believe it to be eternal in nature. Now when the spirit leaves the body at death, the body dies. Thus, you no longer have a "living soul." You have a lifeless body and a spirit which continues to exist as a living, cognizant entity. When the spirit returns to the body at the resurrection, the body is perfected and made immortal. The spirit will never again leave it.

I believe that problem stems from the fact that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon sometimes use the word "soul" when it is the "spirit" that is being spoken of. They sometimes uses the word "soul" when referring to a human being (i.e. the combination of a body and a spirit). I'm sure you will continue to see contradictions between LDS doctrine and the Bible, but if you do, it will be because you choose to do so, and not because no one has taken the time to explain why they aren't really contradictions at all.
 
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nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
I'm afraid this is not a contradiction. This is a difference in our interpretation of the Bible, and the choice of words that are used. Briefly -- since my time today is extremely limited -- the Bible teaches that when God breathed life into Adam (i.e. placed his spirit in his body), Adam "became a living soul." So, we believe that a soul is the entity which results from the union of a body and a spirit. It is the spirit which we believe can never die; we believe it to be eternal in nature. Now when the spirit leaves the body at death, the body dies. Thus, you no longer have a "living soul." You have a lifeless body and a spirit which continues to exist as a living, cognizant entity. When the spirit returns to the body at the resurrection, the body is perfected and made immortal. The spirit will never again leave it.

I believe that problem stems from the fact that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon sometimes use the word "soul" when it is the "spirit" that is being spoken of. They sometimes uses the word "soul" when referring to a human being (i.e. the combination of a body and a spirit). I'm sure you will continue to see contradictions between LDS doctrine and the Bible, but if you do, it will be because you choose to do so, and not because no one has taken the time to explain why they aren't really contradictions at all.
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I'm sure you will continue to see contradictions between LDS doctrine and the Bible, but if you do, it will be because you choose to do so, and not because no one has taken the time to explain why they aren't really contradictions at all.
Where did that come from, and why is that necessary, after asking persons to point out contradictions, and then they do?
Can you blame the reader when they point out what they see as a contradiction?

I thank you for your explanation, but I did not read, "it is the spirit that cannot die." I read, it is the soul that could never die."
So if you are saying that LDS believe that the soul is the spirit, then I accept that, even though it's confusing to me, and I am sure confusing to others.

However, the Bible, as far as I know, never uses soul as spirit. Soul is one thing spirit is another. Soul does mean life, in the Bible, so it does speak of life leaving the body, and returning, but it is not the same as spirit.
Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible it speaks of soul as spirit.

Recall, you are the one that extended the invitation to point out any contradiction, and you would gladly address them, so just let me know if you changed your mind, or are tired. I only presented one, and I have not argued or made any noise even once. Nor do I intend to.
I will listen respectfully to your explanation, and question you on them if I see the need, if that is okay with you.

Here is another contradiction - at least it appears to be, not just to me, but others.
Matthew 2:1
After Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king. . .

Alma 7:10
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
 
Watchmen

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
nPeace said:
I'm sure you will continue to see contradictions between LDS doctrine and the Bible, but if you do, it will be because you choose to do so, and not because no one has taken the time to explain why they aren't really contradictions at all.
Where did that come from, and why is that necessary, after asking persons to point out contradictions, and then they do?
Can you blame the reader when they point out what they see as a contradiction?

I thank you for your explanation, but I did not read, "it is the spirit that cannot die." I read, it is the soul that could never die."
So if you are saying that LDS believe that the soul is the spirit, then I accept that, even though it's confusing to me, and I am sure confusing to others.

However, the Bible, as far as I know, never uses soul as spirit. Soul is one thing spirit is another. Soul does mean life, in the Bible, so it does speak of life leaving the body, and returning, but it is not the same as spirit.
Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible it speaks of soul as spirit.

Recall, you are the one that extended the invitation to point out any contradiction, and you would gladly address them, so just let me know if you changed your mind, or are tired. I only presented one, and I have not argued or made any noise even once. Nor do I intend to.
I will listen respectfully to your explanation, and question you on them if I see the need, if that is okay with you.

Here is another contradiction - at least it appears to be, not just to me, but others.
Matthew 2:1
After Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king. . .

Alma 7:10
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
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Are there contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Yes. Are there contradictions within the Bible itself? Yes.

So what’s the point?
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Watchmen said:
Are there contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Yes. Are there contradictions within the Bible itself? Yes.

So what’s the point?
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Having them identified and addressed.
When they are addressed, one understands how persons view what are considered contradictions, and it adds to one's knowledge.... unless of course, one is closed-minded, or not open to other person's viewpoint.
 
Vaderecta

Vaderecta

Active Member
Watchmen said:
Are there contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Yes. Are there contradictions within the Bible itself? Yes.

So what’s the point?
Click to expand...

Lots of passionate religious people. Lots of passionate atheists... What is the point? Should we all be catholic or just embrace our path? You raise an interesting question.
 
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