Why Do Theists Believe In God?

[Kenny]

I'm assuming this is a typo?

Just more complete. What I'm saying here is that I believe everything the Bible says about the Fall of Adam. I just don't believe it was a complete record of what happened and why.

Yes, all have sinned and the curse is death. But the Lord has sometimes put a visible mark of some sort on someone who has been disobedient, as occurred with Cain. As far as anyone's skin turning "black" (in the way in which we use the word "black" to describe skin color today) in the Book of Mormon, we simply don't believe that happened.

You lost me with this last comment. I'm not sure if you just worded this differently than you intended to or if I'm just slow on the uptake today. At any rate, I'm not aware of any commandment that was given to Adam that he should not have joy. I do believe that God does want us to have joy.

We most certainly do believe, however, that the fall of Adam was essential and a part of God's Plan all along. The way we see it, to believe anything other than that the Fall was an anticipated one is to suggest that God was a pretty incompetent planner and this His Plan was derailed before it ever got off the ground. Contrary to popular opinion, Adam and Eve did not create some kind of a glitch in God's plan. When they ate the forbidden fruit, God didn't suddenly have to engage in some kind of frantic damage control. He simply did what He knew all along He would be doing when the time was right. He cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

The Fall of Adam is one of my favorite gospel topics, and I would very much like to discuss it further. As a matter of fact, I believe it deserves a thread of its own. I'd much rather discuss it in depth elsewhere than as a sidelight on this thread.

That would be fantastic. Looking forward to the thread.

 

[Katzpur]

OMG! I am sincerely sorry. I will fix it.

No problem. I just deleted my reference to the comment, so we're good.

 

[Katzpur]

That would be fantastic. Looking forward to the thread.

Did you want me to start it?

 

[Kenny]

Did you want me to start it?

that would be great Katzpur.

Incidentally, I find the whole of the Gospel in the first 4 chapters... Love Genesis.

 

[Katzpur]

that would be great Katzpur.

Here it is: Thoughts on the Fall of Adam. I'm looking forward to hearing your comments.

 

[nPeace]

LOL Well... Duh, Ken.

No. I would say that the two mentioned don't usually work with other churches that I am aware of.

I could have bet my house on this, so by some measure Bob is right. He is wrong about some things... many things actually, but who's counting anyway.

 

[Kenny]

No problem. I just deleted my reference to the comment, so we're good.

I could have bet my house on this, so by some measure Bob is right. He is wrong about some things... many things actually, but who's counting anyway.

Yes.. but the context was thousands of different brands. There is alway one that will break the mold. As noted by one of the resident Mormons, they do work cross denominational lines...

 

[Katzpur]

I could have bet my house on this, so by some measure Bob is right. He is wrong about some things... many things actually, but who's counting anyway.

So what has given you the impression that Mormons don't work with other churches? I'm just curious. I've always thought our Interfaith Relations were fairly well-known.

 

[lukethethird]

Twenty years is a long time, but people do manage to selectively forget things they would prefer not to remember. Seventy years of active participating in the Church is, however, longer than twenty years of past participation.

I'm curious, though... You describe your religion as Xian, but you say you don't believe a word of the Bible. Would you mind clarifying what seems to me to be an odd discrepancy.

Not all of us read The Bible literally.

 

[nPeace]

So what has given you the impression that Mormons don't work with other churches? I'm just curious. I've always thought our Interfaith Relations were fairly well-known.

Thank you.
Joseph Smith elevated the principle of religious liberty and tolerance: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”
Just fishing I guess.

Does this mean that LDS
a. worship with others, regardless of how, where or what they worship?
b. allow or tolerate others to worship, regardless of how, where or what they worship?
c. do both?

 

[wandering peacefully]

(Kind of an after thought follow-up to my thread "Why Is It That Atheists Don't Believe In God?")

In One Word Tell Us Why You Think Theists Believe In God.

After that one word feel free to elaborate.

My one word is "NEED."

.

Comfort

At least when I was a believer it was the biggest draw.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you.
Joseph Smith elevated the principle of religious liberty and tolerance: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”
Just fishing I guess.

Does this mean that LDS
a. worship with others, regardless of how, where or what they worship?
b. allow or tolerate others to worship, regardless of how, where or what they worship?
c. do both?

Well, I have been to worship services other than LDS ones, and it's not something that my church forbids. I don't see attending another denomination's worship service as actively participating in their worship. For instance, I've attended Catholic mass on a couple of occasions and I've never dipped my fingers in the holy water and done the sign of the cross. I've never received Catholic communion either, or confessed my sins to a priest. I have, on the other hand, witnessed Catholics receiving communion. We definitely do "tolerate" others having the right to worship as their consciences dictate.

In addition to the 11th Article of Faith, which you quoted, Joseph Smith also said, "I have the most liberal sentiments, and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations; and the rights and liberties of conscience, I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.

The [Latter-day] Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren. If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a ‘Mormon,’ I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.

It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul—civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race."

 

[nPeace]

Well, I have been to worship services other than LDS ones, and it's not something that my church forbids. I don't see attending another denomination's worship service as actively participating in their worship. For instance, I've attended Catholic mass on a couple of occasions and I've never dipped my fingers in the holy water and done the sign of the cross. I've never received Catholic communion either, or confessed my sins to a priest. I have, on the other hand, witnessed Catholics receiving communion. We definitely do "tolerate" others having the right to worship as their consciences dictate.

In addition to the 11th Article of Faith, which you quoted, Joseph Smith also said, "I have the most liberal sentiments, and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations; and the rights and liberties of conscience, I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.

The [Latter-day] Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren. If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a ‘Mormon,’ I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.

It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul—civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race."

So your answer is (c), yes?

@Katzpur
Do the sacred writings of LDS contradict the Bible?
Bible: The soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Acts 3:23
The Book of Mormon: The soul could never die - Alma 42:9

 

[Vaderecta]

Here it is: Thoughts on the Fall of Adam. I'm looking forward to hearing your comments.

There wasn't a first man or first woman created of his rib nor was there a forbidden fruit. I'm not even sure how the garden of eden would even fit in with a modern understanding of science in the same sense that jehovah witnesses coming to my door and telling me this is the worse and most violent time we have ever lived in just don't understand the numbers behind those claims. Its very story driven. Very personal but very nonsensical.

 

[Katzpur]

There wasn't a first man or first woman created of his rib nor was there a forbidden fruit. I'm not even sure how the garden of eden would even fit in with a modern understanding of science in the same sense that jehovah witnesses coming to my door and telling me this is the worse and most violent time we have ever lived in just don't understand the numbers behind those claims. Its very story driven. Very personal but very nonsensical.

As a Christian who does accept evolution as a scientific fact, I recognize that the Bible is not a scientific textbook and that not everything it says happened exactly as it is written. Nevertheless the "Fall of Adam" is a subject of interest to almost all Christians. I started it for their benefit, not yours.

 

[Ancient Soul]

LOL

If you say so... but, yes, no works for salvation as I quoted Eph 2:8-9

THAT is what I wanted. Now WHY couldn't you have just openly admitted it like that right up front, instead of offering so much obfuscation?

Anyway, do you think your "god" will let you off the hook because you took ONE verse out of context to excuse yourself from doing ALL that he requires from you?

Don't you not yet comprehend that you cannot deceive "him"?

Better not ignore this:

Revelation 20:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Vaderecta]

As a Christian who does accept evolution as a scientific fact, I recognize that the Bible is not a scientific textbook and that not everything it says happened exactly as it is written. Nevertheless the "Fall of Adam" is a subject of interest to almost all Christians. I started it for their benefit, not yours.

The fall of adam is an interesting story in the terms of the vast people who explain in it in so many different ways. Your interpretation is very personal and I'm not sure how much you have sought out other understandings. (Give me a break here, I have never met you and have no idea what you may have studied) My point was it is a work of fiction. Like Aesops fables there may be things you can distill to lead you to act a certain way but it has no more importance then any other work of fiction. If you are internalizing that story to mean more then that then you might want to reexamine the author and his beliefs and objectives. #METOO

 

[Ancient Soul]

In a place called 'hell' to which they would otherwise have gone after death, and instead they go to heaven after being 'saved', right?

Like everything in the Christian mythology, that's complicated also.

Now while what you stated is what most are brainwashed to believe, their book of mythology clearly states that their "god" Jesus will raise all the dead from the foundations of the world to make up his army. And he will then create a "new earth" where all the "saved" Christians will spend all eternity, and he will rule over them with a "rod of iron" with the help of his "risen from the dead" army. Which sounds pretty grim to me. It's in the book of the bible called "Revelation". It's pretty demented and sounds more Satanic to me, but they love it for some reason. I think it's like people who like horror movies.

 

[Ancient Soul]

there is a difference between different translations and different Bibles.

The Mormons and the JW got there Bibles by an angel that said "I'm giving you the correct translations" (paraphrased)

That is called a different bible.

Yes, all the others are different translations

The fall of adam is an interesting story in the terms of the vast people who explain in it in so many different ways. Your interpretation is very personal and I'm not sure how much you have sought out other understandings. (Give me a break here, I have never met you and have no idea what you may have studied) My point was it is a work of fiction. Like Aesops fables there may be things you can distill to lead you to act a certain way but it has no more importance then any other work of fiction. If you are internalizing that story to mean more then that then you might want to reexamine the author and his beliefs and objectives. #METOO

Just so you understand, ALL Christians when cornered, will invoke the holy spirit as their source of how they made up their interpretation of any and all bible verses. It's their way of saying "Check mate!".

The main problem with that is how the "holy spirit" is claimed to guide them ALL to the ultimate understanding of their bible, yet ALL Christians have wildly different interpretations on most everything and can therefore never agree on what it means.

 

[savagewind]

I believe in GOD because everything (even the bad stuff) is too wonderful for nothing to have done it.