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Why Do Theists Believe In God?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
My sister was a Mormon for 20 years. Their Book of Mormons is considered the actual word of God. The others are important (KJV) but not relied on when The Book of Mormons says otherwise..
My 70 years as a Mormon trumps your sister's 20 years. ;) There are four books which we consider to be scripture. Actually, whenever they are named, the Bible is mentioned first, and The Book of Mormon second. In our adult Sunday School classes, we spend twice as much time studying the Bible as we do The Book of Mormon. (It's not The Book of Mormons -- plural -- by the way; Mormon was the name of the man who abridged the sacred record of his ancestors. The book is named after him.) And when we study the Bible, it is to learn from it, not to look for errors in it. It is an extremely important part of our belief system and not just some kind of an add-on. It contains everything we know about our Savior's life and ministry in the Holy Land. We value it highly and consider it God's word.

If you can give me one single solitary example of where the Bible says one thing and the Book of Mormon says something that contradicts it, I'd be happy to discuss your findings.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Didn't say they don't. But they don't consider it as the actual word as they do with the Book of Mormon. Unless my sister, who was a Mormon for 20 years, is mistaken.
She is mistaken. I can't imagine how anyone could be a Mormon for 20 years and not know that the Bible is the word of God.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The only "inerrant" Bible would be in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew scriptures. But the voluminous amount of fragments and/or books are so plentiful, as well as Hebrew/Greeek dictionaries, that today we pretty much know what it says.
I'm not sure that even the Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew scriptures would be inerrant, unless they were the original manuscripts, which they are not.

I'm not aware of any "horrible" errors that changes the message. It is estimated that it is 99.5% correct and the .5 can be figured out.
Nor am I. But that's not my concern. This is:

A list of the books comprising the "Christian" canon was compiled in Rome just prior to 200 A.D. This list was discovered in 1740 in the Ambrosian Libary in Milan, Italy. Missing from the accepted canon in 200 A.D. were Hebrews, James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter. Only two of John's letters were considered canonical, not three, but we don't know for sure which two. The Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon, however, were included.

Eusebius of Caesara, one of the most notable Church historians to have ever lived, described (in about 300 A.D.) a canon which included only twenty-seven of the books in today's New Testament. Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter where described as questionable, as were Jude and Revelation. In the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzus continued to reject Revelation and states, "You have all. If there is any any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books]." The canon he set forth was ratified some three centuries later.

The Greek Codex Claromontanus, one of the most significant New Testament manuscripts, contains a list of the canonical books of the fourth century. (The manuscript itself originates in the sixth century, however most scholars believe that the actual list dates back to the Alexandrian Church from two centuries earlier.) That list did not exclude Philippians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians or Hebrews. But guess what? It does include the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.

And what about about Paul's epistles? Why, for instance, was his epistle to the Laodiceans considered less authoritative than his other epistles? Or was it? Maybe it had just been lost prior to when the first canon was compiled. It's mentioned in Colossians 4:16, for instance. Obviously, it was considered authoritative at the time it was written. Paul also wrote an additional epistle to the Ephesians and another to the Corinthians. When did his "apostolic authorship" come into question? Jude, too, wrote another epistle. Why would it have be considered so unreliable as to have been intentionally omitted from the today's canon?

If we go to the Old Testament, there are even more books that are missing. These were written by "Samuel the seer," "Nathan the prophet," "Shemaiah the prophet" and others. 2 Chronicles mentions many of these by name. Why haven't we gotten rid of 2 Chronicles by now, since it references so many prophets whose work was apparently not the word of God after all?

The Bible canon itself has been changed many, many times over the years. Surely books don't go from being "God breathed" to "not God breathed" and sometimes back again over the years.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
My 70 years as a Mormon trumps your sister's 20 years. ;) There are four books which we consider to be scripture. Actually, whenever they are named, the Bible is mentioned first, and The Book of Mormon second. In our adult Sunday School classes, we spend twice as much time studying the Bible as we do The Book of Mormon. (It's not The Book of Mormons -- plural -- by the way; Mormon was the name of the man who abridged the sacred record of his ancestors. The book is named after him.) And when we study the Bible, it is to learn from it, not to look for errors in it. It is an extremely important part of our belief system and not just some kind of an add-on. It contains everything we know about our Savior's life and ministry in the Holy Land. We value it highly and consider it God's word.

If you can give me one single solitary example of where the Bible says one thing and the Book of Mormon says something that contradicts it, I'd be happy to discuss your findings.
I'm not desiring to be offensive. All I am saying is that you have scriptures that you consider more trustworthy than the KJV.

"2 Nephi 5:21": 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

We have no script to say that "a skin of blackness" is a curse. (21) but rather all have sinned and the curse is death. Rom 3:23; 6:23

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Again, we have no such scripture. Adam sinned because he transgressed the commandment not to have joy.
 
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lukethethird

unknown member
She is mistaken. I can't imagine how anyone could be a Mormon for 20 years and not know that the Bible is the word of God.
I'm not a Mormon for obvious reasons, but if I was I'm sure I couldn't imagine how either, I mean twenty years in, you'd think it was a no brainer by then.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
My 70 years as a Mormon trumps your sister's 20 years. ;) There are four books which we consider to be scripture. Actually, whenever they are named, the Bible is mentioned first, and The Book of Mormon second. In our adult Sunday School classes, we spend twice as much time studying the Bible as we do The Book of Mormon. (It's not The Book of Mormons -- plural -- by the way; Mormon was the name of the man who abridged the sacred record of his ancestors. The book is named after him.) And when we study the Bible, it is to learn from it, not to look for errors in it. It is an extremely important part of our belief system and not just some kind of an add-on. It contains everything we know about our Savior's life and ministry in the Holy Land. We value it highly and consider it God's word.

If you can give me one single solitary example of where the Bible says one thing and the Book of Mormon says something that contradicts it, I'd be happy to discuss your findings.
I remember when I was told to do this, and when I did, I got no response, so I will join Ken in presenting them one at a time.

Can I first ask about Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible - the
Revision of the King James Version also called the Inspired Version (IV)?
How is this viewed by LDS... as inspired?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Oh. Thank you for that.
Is that an adjustment, because I have known of Mormons for many years, and have spoken to a few, who said it was a Bible.
Seriously? I've never in my life known a Mormon who has referred to The Book of Mormon as a Bible.

Doesn't the word Bible mean, little books?
My understanding is that the word "Bible" comes from the Latin "biblia sacra," which means "holy books." I guess it you want to get really technical, any collection of holy books could be considered to be a bible. Still, I believe that with the word "Bible" having a meaning that is so universally understood to mean the Old and New Testaments used by Christians, it would be misleading at the very least to apply the word "bible" to any other collection of sacred writings. Latter-day Saints definitely don't refer to all four of our books of sacred writings as being four bibles.

The Watchtower is a journal which carry articles on a variety of topics, that aid in understanding the Bible.
Is that the purpose of the Book of Mormon?
No, it's not. There are, in fact, several instances The Book of Mormon itself where its purposes are mentioned. Its central purpose, however, is found on the title page: “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ..." From its first page to its last, Jesus Christ is the book’s central character and that his divinity is its central message. The subtitle of the book is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." I've heard various criticisms of this phrase over the years, but none of them make much sense to me. Why wouldn't we welcome any writings that testify of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer of the world. And why would anyone object to God's word being taught in places other than in the Holy Land?

The Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 29:3-11) explains it in this way:

And because my words shall hiss forth -- many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
LOL Well... Duh, Ken.

No. I would say that the two mentioned don't usually work with other churches that I am aware of.
Actually, the LDS are highly involved in interfaith efforts and activities. This is not to say that we encourage ecumenism, but we definitely do interact with any other church (including non-Christian ones) to serve mankind and to build bridges of understanding.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I'm not a Mormon for obvious reasons, but if I was I'm sure I couldn't imagine how either, I mean twenty years in, you'd think it was a no brainer by then.
You'd think so, but apparently not. Unless you're suggesting that I am being less than honest in disagreeing. So, which is it?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
So, here we are, I am working with all denominations and Bob "the unbeliever" says we aren't putting aside our differences. Here I am, eating with all denominations under the banner of Jesus, and Bob "the unbeliever" says we are not joined under one name.

Hmmmmm..... :facepalm:

Really? Do you all attend the same church? Do you all have the exact same beliefs? No? There are differences?

Yep: proof none of you have a god giving you advice.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I remember when I was told to do this, and when I did, I got no response, so I will join Ken in presenting them one at a time.

Can I first ask about Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible - the
Revision of the King James Version also called the Inspired Version (IV)?
How is this viewed by LDS... as inspired?
First of all, the term "translation" had a broader meaning in the early 1800s than it has today. Technically, Joseph Smith did not "translate" either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures, but revised the English text of the KJV. Most of the revisions are pretty minor and make the meaning of the verses that were modified a little more clear than they are in the original KJV. We believe that more correct words and phrases were revealed to Joseph Smith as a result of his study and prayers. It definitely was not considered to be either an automatic or an infallible process. If you or anyone else would like to provide me at random with two or three verses from any of the four gospels as they appear in the KJV (or even in the JWs version of the Bible), I'd be happy to respond by posting the verses as they appear in the JST (Joseph Smith Translation).

Incidentally, we do not use this version of the Bible today, because we do not hold the rights to it. They are owned by the Community of Christ (formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).
 

lukethethird

unknown member
You'd think so, but apparently not. Unless you're suggesting that I am being less than honest in disagreeing. So, which is it?
Not suggesting anything of the sort, twenty years is a long time, but then again, I don't believe a word of it, (The Bible), so perhaps I'm not one to comment.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
All I am saying is that you have scriptures that you consider more trustworthy than the KJV.
Just more complete. What I'm saying here is that I believe everything the Bible says about the Fall of Adam. I just don't believe it was a complete record of what happened and why.

"2 Nephi 5:21": 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

We have no script to say that "a skin of blackness" is a curse. (21) but rather all have sinned and the curse is death. Rom 3:23; 6:23
Yes, all have sinned and the curse is death. But the Lord has sometimes put a visible mark of some sort on someone who has been disobedient, as occurred with Cain. As far as anyone's skin turning "black" (in the way in which we use the word "black" to describe skin color today) in the Book of Mormon, we simply don't believe that happened.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Again, we have no such scripture. Adam sinned because he transgressed the commandment not to have joy.
You lost me with this last comment. I'm not sure if you just worded this differently than you intended to or if I'm just slow on the uptake today. At any rate, I'm not aware of any commandment that was given to Adam that he should not have joy. I do believe that God does want us to have joy.

We most certainly do believe, however, that the fall of Adam was essential and a part of God's Plan all along. The way we see it, to believe anything other than that the Fall was an anticipated one is to suggest that God was a pretty incompetent planner and this His Plan was derailed before it ever got off the ground. Contrary to popular opinion, Adam and Eve did not create some kind of a glitch in God's plan. When they ate the forbidden fruit, God didn't suddenly have to engage in some kind of frantic damage control. He simply did what He knew all along He would be doing when the time was right. He cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

The Fall of Adam is one of my favorite gospel topics, and I would very much like to discuss it further. As a matter of fact, I believe it deserves a thread of its own. I'd much rather discuss it in depth elsewhere than as a sidelight on this thread.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Not suggesting anything of the sort, twenty years is a long time, but then again, I don't believe a word of it, (The Bible), so perhaps I'm not one to comment.
Twenty years is a long time, but people do manage to selectively forget things they would prefer not to remember. Seventy years of active participating in the Church is, however, longer than twenty years of past participation.

I'm curious, though... You describe your religion as Xian, but you say you don't believe a word of the Bible. Would you mind clarifying what seems to me to be an odd discrepancy.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Really? Do you all attend the same church? Do you all have the exact same beliefs? No? There are differences?

Yep: proof none of you have a god giving you advice.
you make a lot of statements... where is your supportive documentation?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Actually, the LDS are highly involved in interfaith efforts and activities. This is not to say that we encourage ecumenism, but we definitely do interact with any other church (including non-Christian ones) to serve mankind and to build bridges of understanding.
Thank you. Perhaps I should have said "In my area". Glenn Beck certainly gives God great glory.
 
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