Why do you accept Jesus as Messiah?

[CG Didymus]

Belief in Jesus is not misplaced but is it true belief because the ‘type’ of belief Christians have in Jesus seems to have blinded them to His Return which they missed?

One thing I keep bringing up to Baha'is is... How many "Messiahs" are prophesied in the Bible? Because if the Baha'is are correct we have Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Then what was the Jewish Messiah supposed to accomplish? No one has established peace, so nobody has fulfilled all the prophecies. Then has all the horrible things that were predicted in Revelation already happened? I still think that the return happens at the climax of the tribulations, and then the Messiah fixes everything. But with the Baha'i Faith, we have to believe that the tribulations all happened prior to 1844, when one "manifestation" came. Then more tribulations? That manifestation being killed/ Then in 1863 another manifestation comes, gets rejected, dies, and we go through more tribulations. Is that how it was prophesied in the different religions? Oh, and still no peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

But that is just the bahai conception of betterment. What I meant by the fact that the Baha'i model doesn't look any newer then any previous religious model is that betterment is being defined from the top down. The Baha'i have a notion that what they think of as betterment is divinely mandated. Same stuff. Different day.

In my idealistic days, I believed that God would change the world... That people would all become nice. That is what I see as the problem with the Baha'i peace plan, it depends on good, honest people.

Their "lessor" peace has this world tribunal running things. It has all the nations essentially disarming. Like that is going to happen. But it is secular. All nations are going to send a representative to this world government? And they are all going to do the right thing? People in all the cities and towns are going to get along? Each nation is going to be fair and just to its people? All people and nations are going to abide by what this group of people elected to represent them are going say?

But then the next step is the "most" great peace and that is when everybody believes and follow God and his laws. With laws against sex outside of marriage, no gay or lesbian sex, who knows what they say about transgenders, no drugs or alcohol, unless God changes people a lot, I don't think everybody's going to go along with those rules. Then if God is going to change people, why hasn't he? If that is what is necessary, why doesn't God just make the changes and save the world from all the evils and suffering? Because that is what is prophesied in the Bible. No more tears... Or was that Ozzie that said that?

Anyway, all will know God. Evil people are thrown into an abyss. Only good people are left. No more war. Peace will reign and God's kingdom will be established on Earth. Why don't I trust the promises that religions make?

 

[CG Didymus]

I am a reborn Christian again since today. I return to Jesus with my bag full of paganism. He is the savior.

That's a good mix of beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Anyone who doesn’t share my beliefs is welcome to their own. What’s important to me may not be important to you. Maybe you don’t need a loving God in your life, in which case good luck to you. All I can say is, my own life has been enriched beyond measure, since I opened my mind and my heart to the presence of a Power greater than myself. But I have no interest in trying to force my beliefs - or lack of them - on others.

But people in other religions do need and believe in God. Do you accept them even though their beliefs are different than yours? Because the problem is some religions, Christianity one of the main ones, believe that the other religions are false, and that even some other Christian sects have false beliefs.

 

[Triumph]

There has been people that all lived under one religion. I like using the example of the Aztec religion. It kept their society and culture going for centuries. Then the Spanish conquered them and outlawed their religion and forced them to believe in a Trinitarian God. Was that "renewal" better? In a way, better than a religion that included human sacrificing. But was this new religion true? Not by Baha'i standards.

But that same religion, the Catholic Church, had great power. And replaced several other religions that had their own Gods. Then the Protestant Reformation... a "renewal". Was it true? No, not by Baha'i standards, because they still had sin being inherited from Adam, Jesus as the only way, that they were the only "true" religion, and that God was still, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But when you say the "current" system, it's kind of secular isn't it? We are moving away from allowing religion to have too much power. Why? Because religion was the problem. And now you want to replace the "current" secular system with "God's" laws and government? It might be better. It might be exactly what is needed, but how many people are going to trust a religion to run things?

But then Baha'is say, "Not to worry, the laws are only for Baha'is." I don't think so. It sure seems that the Baha'i Faith is setting itself up to be the governing body for the whole planet. The Local and National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. And if not, then do you really think a secular world government isn't going to get corrupted? Look at the U.S., we don't even trust each other and our "democratic" elections. Secular government won't work, so the only chance is for us is to let "God's" government and laws rule over us? And they won't get corrupted?

But then there is unity between the different religions. Here's a Christian that has the right attitude. Where did he get that from? Does his religion need to be renewed? Or accepted and respected and left alone for him and people like him to live and believe as they do? I'm sure you'd say that his beliefs are just fine. But will other Baha'is believe that, or will they try and show him the "light"? That Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith have come to replace those old, archaic, corrupted beliefs? And then vice versa, will other Christians not try and convert Baha'is to their truth, that Jesus is the only way and that you need to be saved? Can religions really get along and respect each other even though they believe different things?

Most trinitarians believe in human sacrifice and support it. They do not watch the murder, but they wholly support it, expecting a reward for agreeing an innocent man should die so they do not have to take responsibility for their own sins asking God to forgive them. If they believe their atonement needs a blood sacrifice, why not just offer lamb meat to their temple once a week and save the life of Jesus? They would rather kill a man than pay for lamb meat? Truth is Jesus taught God does not accept blood sacrifices but most refuse to listen to the words of Jesus and prefer to follow the serial killer that demands human sacrifice, Paul instead.
God is not the son. Jesus said he is not God and not to worship him. People did anyway but Jesus did not want them to.
Jesus is one with God in the same context he used to describe marriage as that agreement for love and loyalty makes them One. Jesus and God are one with love but in no way is Jesus= God, the Father that created him. Jesus teaches Gods word truthfully but he is only a creation of God. Jesus did not exist until in the womb of Mary. Mary is not a deity and Jesus never existed without her. In the beginning was only God, the Word, almighty intelligence that established the laws of the universe. Jesus only attained eternal life by obedience. Jesus could give himself life again because he knew he would be obedient to God even unto death.
The whole planet is being set up for a world nuclear war that will destroy supply lines and cause radiation to repeatedly circle the entire globe raining fallout on all water, crops and animals regardless of where a person lives, causing the ecology to collapse. Religion cannot survive unless humans do, and they won't. That is what "end of days" means, extinction of our specie on this planet because of a religious world war fought by people that support Abraham, the father of the lie one of his sons will have a throne of rule forever.

 

[ppp]

In my idealistic days, I believed that God would change the world... That people would all become nice. That is what I see as the problem with the Baha'i peace plan, it depends on good, honest people.

Their "lessor" peace has this world tribunal running things. It has all the nations essentially disarming. Like that is going to happen. But it is secular. All nations are going to send a representative to this world government? And they are all going to do the right thing? People in all the cities and towns are going to get along? Each nation is going to be fair and just to its people? All people and nations are going to abide by what this group of people elected to represent them are going say?

But then the next step is the "most" great peace and that is when everybody believes and follow God and his laws. With laws against sex outside of marriage, no gay or lesbian sex, who knows what they say about transgenders, no drugs or alcohol, unless God changes people a lot, I don't think everybody's going to go along with those rules. Then if God is going to change people, why hasn't he? If that is what is necessary, why doesn't God just make the changes and save the world from all the evils and suffering? Because that is what is prophesied in the Bible. No more tears... Or was that Ozzie that said that?

Anyway, all will know God. Evil people are thrown into an abyss. Only good people are left. No more war. Peace will reign and God's kingdom will be established on Earth. Why don't I trust the promises that religions make?

I hear you. I didn't quite have those idealizations, but I certainly had comparable ones. Ones. You don't believe the promises that religions make because you've come to the point where you know that they are comforting lies. That in order to get better that it is humanity that has to do the work. Then and that's going to be the case. Whether there's a God or many gods or none. The only way that we are going to be able to structure society that we are comfortable and safe in is by doing all the hard work ourselves. Mandates from other beings no matter how wise or benevolence are irrelevant to the facts on the ground. We cannot both be responsible for our choices and be taken care of simultaneously.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But people in other religions do need and believe in God. Do you accept them even though their beliefs are different than yours? Because the problem is some religions, Christianity one of the main ones, believe that the other religions are false, and that even some other Christian sects have false beliefs.

I’ve never believed that, and I’ve never felt compelled by anyone else to believe that. Though when I was a regular church goer, I used to recite, along with everyone else, the Apostles Creed with the lines “I believe in the one true, Catholic and apostolic church”, the emphasis was always on catholic meaning all embracing.

I think the intolerant, vociferous and uncompromising form of Christianity is pretty much an exclusively American phenomenon. The rest of the Christian world, such as it is, has moved on.

 

[YoursTrue]

Belief in Jesus is not misplaced but is it true belief because the ‘type’ of belief Christians have in Jesus seems to have blinded them to His Return which they missed? So if that is true, then the ‘kind’ of belief in Jesus how can it be true belief if Christians have missed His Return? I think that instead of believing in Jesus as the Spirit of God, belief is more based upon His Personality and miracles. So if personality worship is the ‘type’ of belief current among Christians, then when He returned with a new name as foretold and as the Father then Christians would not accept Him which they so far have not.

Jesus died, was put to death, so all having faith in him might live.

 

[YoursTrue]

I’ve never believed that, and I’ve never felt compelled by anyone else to believe that. Though when I was a regular church goer, I used to recite, along with everyone else, the Apostles Creed with the lines “I believe in the one true, Catholic and apostolic church”, the emphasis was always on catholic meaning all embracing.

I think the intolerant, vociferous and uncompromising form of Christianity is pretty much an exclusively American phenomenon. The rest of the Christian world, such as it is, has moved on.

Except that generally Protestants do not go to Catholic churches and vice versa. Throughout the world.

 

[ppp]

Jesus died, was put to death, so all having faith in him might live.

Why? Specifically, why bother with the whole putting to death thing?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why? Specifically, why bother with the whole putting to death thing?

As a substitute for us.

 

[ppp]

As a substitute for us.

You act like your god just couldn't have forgiven everyone and gotten the same effect without the torture death thing.

 

[savagewind]

What made you believe in Christ? No one has met Him. All we have are reported, unverified Biblical records of His earthly ministry. We cannot prove the authenticity of those records.

So what made you a devout Christian? Something you believe Jesus said or taught? How do we know what Jesus actually said when we have no written words in His handwriting? How do you authentic that Jesus spoke those words in the Gospels as He didn’t confirm His sayings in writing anywhere?

So are Christians believing in Jesus on ‘reported’ sayings and here say? If you believe in the Bible, how do you know it’s true? Evidence? Or do you just trust that it is from God and that’s that?

I have not seen the right choice here above in the choices.

Jesus may be real or a fable. It does not matter to me. What words do is magic.

Do you know what the word Jesus means?

 

[loverofhumanity]

But that is just the bahai conception of betterment. What I meant by the fact that the Baha'i model doesn't look any newer then any previous religious model is that betterment is being defined from the top down. The Baha'i have a notion that what they think of as betterment is divinely mandated. Same stuff. Different day.

One principle taught by Baha’u’llah in the 19th century, is that of collective security which we are still struggling to implement. Dictatorships are taking advantage of this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There has been people that all lived under one religion. I like using the example of the Aztec religion. It kept their society and culture going for centuries. Then the Spanish conquered them and outlawed their religion and forced them to believe in a Trinitarian God. Was that "renewal" better? In a way, better than a religion that included human sacrificing. But was this new religion true? Not by Baha'i standards.

But that same religion, the Catholic Church, had great power. And replaced several other religions that had their own Gods. Then the Protestant Reformation... a "renewal". Was it true? No, not by Baha'i standards, because they still had sin being inherited from Adam, Jesus as the only way, that they were the only "true" religion, and that God was still, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But when you say the "current" system, it's kind of secular isn't it? We are moving away from allowing religion to have too much power. Why? Because religion was the problem. And now you want to replace the "current" secular system with "God's" laws and government? It might be better. It might be exactly what is needed, but how many people are going to trust a religion to run things?

But then Baha'is say, "Not to worry, the laws are only for Baha'is." I don't think so. It sure seems that the Baha'i Faith is setting itself up to be the governing body for the whole planet. The Local and National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. And if not, then do you really think a secular world government isn't going to get corrupted? Look at the U.S., we don't even trust each other and our "democratic" elections. Secular government won't work, so the only chance is for us is to let "God's" government and laws rule over us? And they won't get corrupted?

But then there is unity between the different religions. Here's a Christian that has the right attitude. Where did he get that from? Does his religion need to be renewed? Or accepted and respected and left alone for him and people like him to live and believe as they do? I'm sure you'd say that his beliefs are just fine. But will other Baha'is believe that, or will they try and show him the "light"? That Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith have come to replace those old, archaic, corrupted beliefs? And then vice versa, will other Christians not try and convert Baha'is to their truth, that Jesus is the only way and that you need to be saved? Can religions really get along and respect each other even though they believe different things?

We don’t have to all change our religion but if we just remove the prejudices racial, religious and national through a wider loyalty to humanity, we can have peace.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Jesus died, was put to death, so all having faith in him might live.

Other Prophets suffered too some put to death not only Jesus. I believe strongly in Jesus but that He returned.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You act like your god just couldn't have forgiven everyone and gotten the same effect without the torture death thing.

No he could not, because that would not have been justice.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have not seen the right choice here above in the choices.

Jesus may be real or a fable. It does not matter to me. What words do is magic.

Do you know what the word Jesus means?

According to Vines Dictionary


JESUS
iesous (ʼΙησοῦς, 2424) is a transliteration of the Heb. “Joshua,” meaning “Jehovah is salvation,” i.e., “is the Savior,” “a common name among the Jews, e.g., Ex. 17:9; Luke 3:29 (RV); Col. 4:11.

 

[ppp]

But that is just the bahai conception of betterment. What I meant by the fact that the Baha'i model doesn't look any newer then any previous religious model is that betterment is being defined from the top down. The Baha'i have a notion that what they think of as betterment is divinely mandated. Same stuff. Different day.

One principle taught by Baha’u’llah in the 19th century, is that of collective security which we are still struggling to implement. Dictatorships are taking advantage of this.

Is your post supposed to be a response to mine? It looks to me like you are just making a random disconnected statement. That perhaps I exceeded the scope of your prescribed talking point, so you just went on to some another bullet point on some list. But perhaps I am missing something subtle?

 

[ppp]

No he could not, because that would not have been justice.

So many problems with that:

• Justice is getting what you deserve. Punishing someone else for my actions is not and cannot be justice.
  • This makes the punishments of people for Adam's sin unjust and arguably immoral
  • This makes the torture and (sort of) death of Jesus unjust and immoral.
• Forgiveness is not justice. Forgiveness is mercy.
• Sin requires the ability to know right from wrong. Neither Adam nor eve had any knowledge of good or evil when they allegedly transgressed. So any punishment was necessarily unjust in teh first place.