Why do you accept Jesus as Messiah?

[Wildswanderer]

For me, if it didn't really happen as written, I go with the hoax theory.

It actually happened. Literally. All of it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Extreme "God" beliefs have been the cause of a lot of grief too. But also the ordinary "believers"... Those that don't live up to the standards of their religion. Every religion has people that still lie, cheat, steal, and do all sorts of "evil" deeds. When the Abrahamic religions can live together in peace, that will be something.

That’s one of the main reasons religion needs to be renewed. The other is to assist us to adapt to new realities as we evolve. Clearly the current system is defective and Baha’u’llah has given advice how to build a better one.

 

[ppp]

That’s one of the main reasons religion needs to be renewed. The other is to assist us to adapt to new realities as we evolve. Clearly the current system is defective and Baha’u’llah has given advice how to build a better one.

Baha'i does not look significantly different to me. What do you think is better about it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are people, me included, that have believed in more than one religion at one time or another and thought each was true. But, since we changed beliefs, we were wrong about some of them. It is not hard to let oneself believe that a religion is true. And it is not hard, once you've convinced yourself it is true, to keep finding things you believe verifies it as being true. A born-again Christian "knows" that Jesus is God and can find verses that support it. A Baha'i can believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and finds Bible verses and Baha'i verses that support it. Both, I'm sure, feel it in their hearts that what they believe is true, yet the beliefs contradict each other. A Baha'i can say, "But we believe in Jesus." But not the same Jesus as a born-again Christian. That Jesus is the one and only savior and it is him that is coming back and that he rose from the dead. They also believe in a real Satan. And they believe Jesus is God the Son.

Since all of it is dependent on a certain interpretation of the Bible and NT, Baha'is can make a pretty good argument why that interpretation isn't correct. But then how do they verify their own beliefs?

The only way we can verify our beliefs is through the Person and Writings of Baha’u’llah.
Unlike previous dispensations, we have the Word written by the Manifestation Himself. If He is the Promised One foretold by religions of the past, then it follows that His interpretation is correct and true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think there is a very good chance that the resurrection and ascension didn't literally happen. But... they were written by four gospel writers as if they did happen. In one verse Jesus supposedly says to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. In Acts it says that he showed himself to be alive with many proofs. There is nothing I can see how any part of the resurrection story was meant to be taken symbolically and not literally.

And does Islam believe the resurrection was symbolic? I thought some Muslims believe he didn't die on the cross, or that it was a body double. The other problem is by saying a "manifestation" confirmed these events you assume that Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are true. You don't question it because you believe it is "God's" version of the story. But what was the NT then? Not "God's" version? The explanations and interpretations conflict. The NT, to me, clearly says one thing. Lots of us don't believe it. Still, for me, the easiest explanation is embellished, mythical stories about a God/man.

And if we include the Hebrew Bible as well, then it too is filled with stories that many people don't believe literally happened. If the Baha'is right, then all of those stories and all of those writers all wrote fictional, symbolic stories about events that supposedly happened, but they really didn't? What is true and what is fictional then? Genesis goes from Creation with Adam and Eve and goes right into the generations of people that include Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob/Israel and Joseph. What was true and what was symbolic? Noah was real but the story of the flood symbolic?

I think they were just myths and legends told centuries later and eventually written down. Stories that did have meaning for the people. And sure, some symbolic meanings. But I think the stories themselves were written as if they really happened and were meant to be believed as having really happened. But, since I don't believe they really happened, then I think it was just religious myths about a God and his people. And same with Jesus... how do you make him greater than he really was? You make him born of a virgin. You have him walk on water, and then rise from the dead. All things that lots of ancient people would find believable. And things that would make them believe that Jesus was more than a man, but a God.

Because of the lack of authenticity of the Bible, it requires a Manifestation of God to distinguish truth from falsehood. Many have tried to unravel the hidden meanings only leading to division into some 40,000 sects. That’s why Revelation chapter 5 indicates that no earthly or religious person can unseal the meanings - only the Promised One.

 

[cataway]

The only way we can verify our beliefs is through the Person and Writings of Baha’u’llah.
Unlike previous dispensations, we have the Word written by the Manifestation Himself. If He is the Promised One foretold by religions of the past, then it follows that His interpretation is correct and true.

you used a big word ''if''

 

[loverofhumanity]

The only detailed record of his ministry is that which is recorded in the Bible. And of course that's not complete because obviously much more happened than what is recorded, just as much more happened in anyone's life that is documented. But with that in mind, there are several references to Jesus other than the Bible. One such is by Tacitus, who reported on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64. The Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
"Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...."

Belief in Jesus is not misplaced but is it true belief because the ‘type’ of belief Christians have in Jesus seems to have blinded them to His Return which they missed? So if that is true, then the ‘kind’ of belief in Jesus how can it be true belief if Christians have missed His Return? I think that instead of believing in Jesus as the Spirit of God, belief is more based upon His Personality and miracles. So if personality worship is the ‘type’ of belief current among Christians, then when He returned with a new name as foretold and as the Father then Christians would not accept Him which they so far have not.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'i does not look significantly different to me. What do you think is better about it?

Basically everyone unitedly working for the betterment of the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

you used a big word ''if''

Out of respect for the reader. To me it’s very clear.

 

[ppp]

Basically everyone unitedly working for the betterment of the world.

But that is just the bahai conception of betterment. What I meant by the fact that the Baha'i model doesn't look any newer then any previous religious model is that betterment is being defined from the top down. The Baha'i have a notion that what they think of as betterment is divinely mandated. Same stuff. Different day.

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah, it’s intuitive certainly. We are all children of God and we are born, I believe, with a spiritual compass that will lead us back to God, if we let it. But rarely do we learn to use or trust it.

That sounds like a no true Scotsman fallacy to me. Anyone who doesn't share your belief in a deity is has somehow failed to learn something important, I am dubious. We are certainly superstitious by nature, that much I would grant is true, seeing agency in everything, even where there is no evidence for it.

 

[CG Didymus]

It actually happened. Literally. All of it.

Did people live to be over 900 years old? Is the Earth and Universe less than 10,000 years old? Was the Earth completely flooded 4 or 5000 years ago, and the only people left alive were Noah and his family? Did Moses' cane turn into a snake? Did the seas and the Jordan river part to let the Israelite pass over on dry land? Did Lot's wife turn into a pillar of salt? Did Elijah get carried off in a fiery chariot? And on and on.

But then the NT... Did Jesus walk on water? Did he raise two people back to life? Did people come out of their graves in Jerusalem. Then the big one, did Jesus literally and physically come back to life and have a body that could disappear and floated up into the clouds?

Hard stuff to believe. But very easy to doubt and write off as make-believe religious myth. The Baha'is kind of have a middle ground where they can say they believe in the Bible and in Jesus but deny that some of the things actually happened. The good thing about that is that is they can do it with all of the ancient religions... Making them all symbolically "true", just not literally true. So, all is good. All religions were good and true at one time. They all got corrupted by misinterpretations and things getting added into them by people. But, they say, "originally"... The religion had the truth from the one true God delivered by a "manifestation" of God. And now we have the newest manifestation sent by God to re-establish the truth and bring new teachings to fix the world's ills. Sounds great.

But the problem I have with it is I don't believe things said in the Bible, especially the resurrection, were meant to be taken symbolically. I think that they were written to be believed as true, historic events. Now do I believe that they were? No, I have my doubts. I think the creation story, the tower of Babel, the Nephilim, the 10 plagues and even the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus could very well be just embellished stories. After all, who would believe in a God or a Son of God that can't do all sorts of miraculous things?

But we're stuck with religion. It isn't going away. Most people need to believe in a God. So now back to the Baha'is... at least they have a way to reconcile all the different beliefs and potentially get all people of all races, nationalities and religions to get along and work together. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it a false religion trying to get people away from belief in Jesus and in his coming back by telling people he has already come back... in the person of Baha'u'llah?

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s one of the main reasons religion needs to be renewed. The other is to assist us to adapt to new realities as we evolve. Clearly the current system is defective and Baha’u’llah has given advice how to build a better one.

There has been people that all lived under one religion. I like using the example of the Aztec religion. It kept their society and culture going for centuries. Then the Spanish conquered them and outlawed their religion and forced them to believe in a Trinitarian God. Was that "renewal" better? In a way, better than a religion that included human sacrificing. But was this new religion true? Not by Baha'i standards.

But that same religion, the Catholic Church, had great power. And replaced several other religions that had their own Gods. Then the Protestant Reformation... a "renewal". Was it true? No, not by Baha'i standards, because they still had sin being inherited from Adam, Jesus as the only way, that they were the only "true" religion, and that God was still, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But when you say the "current" system, it's kind of secular isn't it? We are moving away from allowing religion to have too much power. Why? Because religion was the problem. And now you want to replace the "current" secular system with "God's" laws and government? It might be better. It might be exactly what is needed, but how many people are going to trust a religion to run things?

But then Baha'is say, "Not to worry, the laws are only for Baha'is." I don't think so. It sure seems that the Baha'i Faith is setting itself up to be the governing body for the whole planet. The Local and National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. And if not, then do you really think a secular world government isn't going to get corrupted? Look at the U.S., we don't even trust each other and our "democratic" elections. Secular government won't work, so the only chance is for us is to let "God's" government and laws rule over us? And they won't get corrupted?

But then there is unity between the different religions. Here's a Christian that has the right attitude. Where did he get that from? Does his religion need to be renewed? Or accepted and respected and left alone for him and people like him to live and believe as they do? I'm sure you'd say that his beliefs are just fine. But will other Baha'is believe that, or will they try and show him the "light"? That Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith have come to replace those old, archaic, corrupted beliefs? And then vice versa, will other Christians not try and convert Baha'is to their truth, that Jesus is the only way and that you need to be saved? Can religions really get along and respect each other even though they believe different things?

One is to love the people of all faiths with equal compassion and desire for all to have unity with God with grace, forgiveness, mercy and generosity to the poor as a family of humanity.
Christ is my Shepherd that I follow as he teaches truth and amazing prophecy that would save the world if believed.

 

[CG Didymus]

The only way we can verify our beliefs is through the Person and Writings of Baha’u’llah.
Unlike previous dispensations, we have the Word written by the Manifestation Himself. If He is the Promised One foretold by religions of the past, then it follows that His interpretation is correct and true.

What did he verify about Buddhism, Hinduism, and a religion like Sikhism? Baha'is make the claim that Buddha taught about God. Baha'is deny reincarnation and that Krishna is not an incarnation. And say nothing about the sects of Hinduism that don't follow Krishna. But then the sects that do follow Krishna have him as only one of many previous incarnations of Vishnu, and Baha'u'llah mentions none of them. With Sikhs, I don't think Baha'is even consider them a separate, independent religion do they?

But, other than Baha'is saying Jesus died physically and stayed dead and didn't rise, Baha'u'llah said that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the one taken by Abraham. So for you, that is true. But that makes the Bible story false. Is that what you really believe? That thousands of years ago some Scribe wrote down the story of Abraham. The "original" story, and how would we know that? Oh yeah, because Baha'u'llah said so... is that Ishmael was the son taken to be sacrificed. But this Scribe, or was he alone, decided to change the story and make Isaac the son taken to be sacrificed.

The problem is... was it a real event? Did God really tell Abraham to go kill his son? And Abraham listened to that voice? In the story, the Jewish story, it makes perfect sense why it was Isaac. And the NT also says it was Isaac. So, you're okay with Baha'u'llah saying that both the Hebrew Bible and the NT got it wrong? To me that's not verifying anything. It is changing the Scriptures of the past religions to make them fit the new religion. And prior to the Baha'is writings and the Quran, the Bible was all that the Jews had to go by to know the truth. And it was wrong. It contained a lie.

Okay, so the Bible has a lie in it and many of the "historical" events described in it were fictional. But now we can trust what the Baha'i writing say? Yes, we can... "If" But there is another "if". If Jesus is who the NT makes him out to be, then he is the one coming back, and he is the only savior. Religions have too many "if". And most of them find ways to negate the beliefs of the other ones.

 

[YoursTrue]

Belief in Jesus is not misplaced but is it true belief because the ‘type’ of belief Christians have in Jesus seems to have blinded them to His Return which they missed? So if that is true, then the ‘kind’ of belief in Jesus how can it be true belief if Christians have missed His Return? I think that instead of believing in Jesus as the Spirit of God, belief is more based upon His Personality and miracles. So if personality worship is the ‘type’ of belief current among Christians, then when He returned with a new name as foretold and as the Father then Christians would not accept Him which they so far have not.

I don't agree but that's why you are you, God is God, and I am not you or God. Have a nice day.

 

[YoursTrue]

Did people live to be over 900 years old? Is the Earth and Universe less than 10,000 years old? Was the Earth completely flooded 4 or 5000 years ago, and the only people left alive were Noah and his family? Did Moses' cane turn into a snake? Did the seas and the Jordan river part to let the Israelite pass over on dry land? Did Lot's wife turn into a pillar of salt? Did Elijah get carried off in a fiery chariot? And on and on.

But then the NT... Did Jesus walk on water? Did he raise two people back to life? Did people come out of their graves in Jerusalem. Then the big one, did Jesus literally and physically come back to life and have a body that could disappear and floated up into the clouds?

Hard stuff to believe. But very easy to doubt and write off as make-believe religious myth. The Baha'is kind of have a middle ground where they can say they believe in the Bible and in Jesus but deny that some of the things actually happened. The good thing about that is that is they can do it with all of the ancient religions... Making them all symbolically "true", just not literally true. So, all is good. All religions were good and true at one time. They all got corrupted by misinterpretations and things getting added into them by people. But, they say, "originally"... The religion had the truth from the one true God delivered by a "manifestation" of God. And now we have the newest manifestation sent by God to re-establish the truth and bring new teachings to fix the world's ills. Sounds great.

But the problem I have with it is I don't believe things said in the Bible, especially the resurrection, were meant to be taken symbolically. I think that they were written to be believed as true, historic events. Now do I believe that they were? No, I have my doubts. I think the creation story, the tower of Babel, the Nephilim, the 10 plagues and even the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus could very well be just embellished stories. After all, who would believe in a God or a Son of God that can't do all sorts of miraculous things?

But we're stuck with religion. It isn't going away. Most people need to believe in a God. So now back to the Baha'is... at least they have a way to reconcile all the different beliefs and potentially get all people of all races, nationalities and religions to get along and work together. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it a false religion trying to get people away from belief in Jesus and in his coming back by telling people he has already come back... in the person of Baha'u'llah?

In the end -- or the final outcome -- God is the Decisionmaker. Hard pill for some to swallow.

 

[ppp]

In the end -- or the final outcome -- God is the Decisionmaker. Hard pill for some to swallow.

It's only a hard pill to swallow because no one has ever produced the pill.

 

[syo]

I am a reborn Christian again since today. I return to Jesus with my bag full of paganism. He is the savior.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That sounds like a no true Scotsman fallacy to me. Anyone who doesn't share your belief in a deity is has somehow failed to learn something important, I am dubious. We are certainly superstitious by nature, that much I would grant is true, seeing agency in everything, even where there is no evidence for it.

Anyone who doesn’t share my beliefs is welcome to their own. What’s important to me may not be important to you. Maybe you don’t need a loving God in your life, in which case good luck to you. All I can say is, my own life has been enriched beyond measure, since I opened my mind and my heart to the presence of a Power greater than myself. But I have no interest in trying to force my beliefs - or lack of them - on others.

 

[CG Didymus]

Because of the lack of authenticity of the Bible, it requires a Manifestation of God to distinguish truth from falsehood. Many have tried to unravel the hidden meanings only leading to division into some 40,000 sects. That’s why Revelation chapter 5 indicates that no earthly or religious person can unseal the meanings - only the Promised One.

The major divisions are the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants. I agree that the Protestants had to split off from the Universal Christian Church. The corruption was too great. Then Protestants are the ones that split off into lots of variations.

But what is it to be a Christian? What does a true follower of Jesus believe? There are major things that are necessary to believe in. Then minor things that still separate them, but don't affect whether they are considered to be true Christians or not. And we all know that there is small break away groups of Baha'is. Just like when the Catholic Church had the power to put a stop to all people that had different interpretations and beliefs, the main controlling body of the Baha'i Faith can declare renegade Baha'is "covenant breakers" and ostracize them and they never get very big.
But they are still variations, or "sects", of the Baha'is Faith just like some small group of Christians might bread away from a large sect.

Then Revelation 5...

5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.​

Chapter 6...

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.​

The seals are opened. Baha'u'llah isn't the one opening them. It is this Lamb. If you want to say this Lamb is Baha'u'llah, then fine. Which verses support that?
So, what exactly are these "hidden" meanings that you are referring to? I agree that the Baha'i Faith has its own interpretation of the Bible that is very different than the Christians or Jews. But I don't think you can use Revelation 5 to support why Baha'is have a different interpretation. The beliefs of Christianity are based on the gospels and epistles. They are not "hidden". And again, if the meanings were hidden, then what good was the NT? For 2000 years some writings that no one could understand until Baha'u'llah came and told them what they mean?

Now if you want to say the NT has got things wrong. That's a little different. And I'd agree with that. But that means it isn't the Word of God but the word of men. Is that what you want to say? And, still, I'd say that would not make the meanings in the NT hidden... It would make them wrong. There is no Satan. There's no demons. No walking on water. No resurrection. No saving from some original or inherited sin. That all of that was just made up stuff by the followers of Jesus. I can believe that. And what is the hidden meaning? Don't listen or trust what people say about their Gods and their God/men. They always make things up and then say it is the "Word" of God.

So, the real question is... Is Baha'u'llah the return of Christ? Is Baha'u'llah the Messiah? The Maitreya Buddha? The return of Krishna? And all the other promised ones. It makes whether Jesus was the Messiah irrelevant. And it makes everything we thought we knew about God and Jesus wrong. And maybe so.