Why do you come here? (To atheists)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you even knew how far off you are, you'd laugh hysterically at yourself. When you said LSD I just said whatever... but alcohol? Dude, you're talkin out your ***.

All right: show me another drug that has the same effects as alcohol.

What drugs generally do is block the receptors in your brain, causing dopamine to build up putting the brain in a cloudy, euphoric state we call being high. DMT does NOT block your receptors, but pumps oxygen right through them.

I don't really care about the mechanism of DMT, and it's not relevant to this thread.

LSD comes from mold btw, so that's an entirely different ballpark than any etheogen.

But is it in the same ballpark as the one where you've moved your goalposts? They've moved so quickly I've lost track of where they are.

But alcohol dude, really? Go home.

Meh. You like DMT. We get it. It was never relevant in this thread, but you've made your feelings about it abundantly clear. Can we move on to something on-topic?

 

[LuisDantas]

I've specifically talked to a lot of Dharmic followers that said they do believe in things like that.

Some do, doubtless. But that is almost an accident, and certainly not needed.

You're casting a wide net over an extensive and diversified set of beliefs. To say that those concepts are not believed is an error. In any religion, there are a variety of levels of literalness.

Am I? It seems to me that the wide net is the one that attempts to reduce every religion to belief in deities instead.

I never denied that belief in Gods exists in non-Abrahamic faiths. But it is hardly necessary, and in fact often quite deleterious to religious practice.

Some people seem to idealize Dharmic religions and assume that everyone who follows them takes a purely metaphorical and deeply philosophical path, but just like anywhere else, there are a variety of types.

Point taken. I tend to over-value the forms that I find most worthy.

Atheism and theism remain valuable concepts in Abrahamic, Dharmic, and other religions.

Not in Dharmic, and not particularly so in many other non-Abrahamic faiths, no they don't.

Abrahamic religions tend to be particularly bad at dogmatic insistence on belief, but that doesn't have anything to do with definitions of gods.

It does, because our culture used the Abrahamic understanding of deity as a basis for the concept of Atheism. It doesn't make as much sense without an Abrahamic frame of reference.

Bhagavad Gita 4:40
"But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness; they fall down. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next."

That is a defense of faith, not necessarily of belief, much less of belief in the existence of any concept of God. "God" may easily, and arguably most naturally, be a metaphor or an artistic concept in that passage.

 

[SnifferOuter77]

If we showed up in same faith threads then you'd have a legit beef with us but that's not normally the case. We enter into DEBATE threads. You know what they say....? Can't stand the heat...yada yada yada.......

As far as "discrediting facts"...well, if they do it with evidence then what's the matter? Again, if it's in a debate thread then it's fair game. This issue isn't one sided either. Theist can, have and will continue to do the same.


Is there any reason why non-theist shouldn't be allowed here?

Yeah but they DON'T use evidence on me. Like seriously after all the references to evidence on my theories I've given here, I've received NO evidence to actually disprove them. People just like to attempt using big drug-related words to sound smart against things I've actually been researching and testing. There are many more DMT testing facilities than just what I do. If ya'll can come up with evidence to disprove any higher consciousness induced by DMT, send it to them and watch them close up shop. I'd pay to see that happen, but it won't.

 

[SnifferOuter77]

Meh. You like DMT. We get it. It was never relevant in this thread, but you've made your feelings about it abundantly clear. Can we move on to something on-topic?

Okay, fine... I'm giving you full permission to scroll right past any of my posts. Feel better? Okay, a drug with affects similar to alcohol? Um, weed... duh. Except weed's not as unhealthy for you. But the same relaxed, chill feeling you get from your receptors being blocked, it occurs with both. Those are actually the two most alike drugs on the list. People here really could be using much better examples to argue with me, but you just aren't...
And btw "FAITH" is overrated. Seek the truth on your own, you'll be surprised what you find.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yeah but they DON'T use evidence on me. Like seriously after all the references to evidence on my theories I've given here, I've received NO evidence to actually disprove them. People just like to attempt using big drug-related words to sound smart against things I've actually been researching and testing. There are many more DMT testing facilities than just what I do. If ya'll can come up with evidence to disprove any higher consciousness induced by DMT, send it to them and watch them close up shop. I'd pay to see that happen, but it won't.

Depends on what you're talking about. Maybe you can give me to a thread you started here at RF or a post from a thread you were involved in so I can get the context or gist of the conversation/debate.

 

[Looncall]

I can't bring myself to believe that all of Christianity sprung from a simple hunch. Or some douche deciding to spread some rumor about some invisible dude watching us. Everybody on here talks about the origins of religion being a scam for money. Sorry, but there is no such scam-artist with mass-mind-control powers to hypnotize a planet into praying to spiritual entities for thousands of years to come. I mean hell, if you believe that, God's not too far of a stretch after all. Christianity is obviously founded on events that shocked and awed people of that day. If an underwater city can be discovered off the coast of India and not even be in the news anymore less than a month later... there must have been some pretty astounding events taking place during the roots of all belief systems.

I suppose that you are partly right. It's pretty clear that religion was invented to cope with the fact that early people lacked what we now call a scientific understanding of nature. I suspect that it was also invented by clever tribesmen who discovered that they could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to spirits.

However, to continue to promote religion in these times, when it is clearly mere superstition, is a scam. In fact, it is such a clever scam that many of its perpetrators are themselves victims.

 

[SnifferOuter77]

Depends on what you're talking about. Maybe you can give me to a thread you started here at RF or a post from a thread you were involved in so I can get the context or gist of the conversation/debate.

Just go back a few pages, you'll see my first big post on this thread. And all the bad noise that spread about it so quickly, funny really.

 

[EddyM]

Abrahamic religions tend to be particularly bad at dogmatic insistence on belief, but that doesn't have anything to do with definitions of gods.

Bhagavad Gita 4:40
"But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness; they fall down. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next."

I want to know why you quoted this verse. And I'm not sure which translation it is. But it isn't the best. I don't think it says "revealed scriptures".

The only instance where "faith" is mentioned in the Gita is in reference to scriptures.

It requires faith to believe in a scripture you read. If you have the ability to understand well what you read, then you have to decide what you make out of it. Whether it was written by man without it being intended by God as to be a source of spiritual wisdom in order to know about Him or not. Whether it is truth encapsulated in words or mere make believe stuff like reading a fictional children's story book or whether it was a mere accident, rearrangement of words out of a probability by itself without a conscious author writing it or it having been altered by others as opposed to its author as how he intended.

Everything that happens, happens because of God. Hindus believe that man is a puppet on an extreme level to the Supreme, ultimately.

So how can any particular object in existence be something so "special" as to have a status of being "deliberately" intended by God for some specific reason? And of all reasons - that being to know, approach and worship Him?

Faith here is not a demand of that which is irrational or out of fear. But "faith" here being a brute fact that has to be had otherwise there is no way to accept what is being offered.

A scripture has an intention. It aims to impart necessary knowledge to the aspirant.

At the end of the day what makes a Jew believe in the Torah, a Christian believe in the Gospel and a Muslim believe in the Quran as being the words of a Supreme Being? - the answer is faith.

What makes Jews accept and pursue the state of Israel as per Aliyah to the Promised Land and the coming of the Messiah, Christians accept and thump the Bible over the Second Coming of Jesus, Muslims accept and seek to implement Shariah and hold the belief in the Al-Qiyamah, even in the face of all odds being against these agendas and beliefs? - one thing alone is in involvement here that makes it possible and that is faith.

All these people, believe in something that defines their present and future. And faith is what empowers them to do all sorts of things to achieve their pursuits.

Even if you are an individual theist who had concepts regarding a deity and you believed them to be absolute and eternal truths. And you wrote them down on several pages. They would be your scriptures. The moment you start to have doubts. There goes everything. And unhappiness ensues.

There is correlation between emotions and faith. The greater the subject discussed by the object of faith or the object of faith is, the more immense the emotions are regarding them by those who have faith them.

 

[SnifferOuter77]

I suppose that you are partly right. It's pretty clear that religion was invented to cope with the fact that early people lacked what we now call a scientific understanding of nature. I suspect that it was also invented by clever tribesmen who discovered that they could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to spirits.

However, to continue to promote religion in these times, when it is clearly mere superstition, is a scam. In fact, it is such a clever scam that many of its perpetrators are themselves victims.

People are always trying to keep science and religion as far apart as they can. Everybody's heard of people who lost their faith because of lack of scientific explanation. But I know quantum physics professors who were actually lead BACK into religion because of the weird discoveries linking truth with truth. Like free will causing the collapse of the wave function. I never used to like spirituality, cause I didn't like the idea of some being controlling me, at all... but it turns out through spirituality and enlightenment, you actually become in control of more than you knew you could before.

 

[Autodidact]

Everything.



Glad you asked dear. I'm here to help you out. Come let's slowly break this down together...

Firstly the word God has millions of definitions and no two people understand it exactly the same either.

Meow Mix said...



You put "God" and "invisible dragons" in the same category. Based upon your own understanding of the two terms. You consider "invisible dragons" to be non-existent or imagined things. The difference between you and the theist is that you consider "God" as well to be imagined whereas the theist considers "God" to be "true"(whatever that means).

You felt a similar mental experience over the concept of "invisible dragon" and "God".

You decided just because you don't consider God to be "real" according to how "realness" applies to everyday objects that you perceive within this universe. "God" must be the product of human imagination rather than an entity arising in the human mind through any type of realization or as a result of any rational process.

So in order to easily discard "God", you equate it with an object which does not exist normally in this world and is widely accepted by everyone, including theists to be as so. You do this in order to (what you think you can)"demonstrate"(as) the "absurdity"(according to you) of the concept of "God".

That's your only outlet. And you know deep down this is dishonest.

Even imagined things are not all the same, even if we base "realness" according to our perception of this world. Somethings require more imagination than others. Somethings are more distorted from what is considered to be "normal" in this world.

You see how beautiful is this? You deny God, and in turn as a result you lack something; the ability to discriminate between things on a higher level.

You lag behind in evolution, while I move ahead of you.:hearts:



My sweet, all these technical terms that are seemingly intellectual and usually them being exquisitely in latin don't scare or impress me.

You missed the point, which is not whether or not God exists. The question is, since atheists, including Meow Mix, believe God doesn't exist, why do we talk about religion, i.e. belief in God. Meow Mix is pointing out that whether or not God exists, belief in God is important. "God" and "invisible dragons" are in the same category, that is, things that Meow Mix does not believe exist. Her point is that it's not whether something exists that makes it important, but whether people believe they do, and base their actions on that belief.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You missed the point, which is not whether or not God exists. The question is, since atheists, including Meow Mix, believe God doesn't exist, why do we talk about religion, i.e. belief in God. Meow Mix is pointing out that whether or not God exists, belief in God is important. "God" and "invisible dragons" are in the same category, that is, things that Meow Mix does not believe exist. Her point is that it's not whether something exists that makes it important, but whether people believe they do, and base their actions on that belief.

Personally, I think the whole idea that a religious forum wouldn't attract atheists is a bit odd. Start a forum on any topic, and you'll attract people of all types who have strong feelings on that topic.

In some cases, strong feelings imply positive feelings, because people who don't like a thing just don't care about it... like the example of the Pokemon fan club that was brought up a few pages back. In other cases, people have strong feelings on both sides.

Nobody would think it strange if a discussion forum dedicated to, say, medieval European history attracted people who were opposed to the idea of monarchy or thought that most of the prominient figures of medieval Europe were bad people. They'd just be one more voice that was represented there.

Same with religion, IMO: you don't necessarily have to agree with religion to think that it's a topic worth discussing.

Edit: a light bulb just came on in my head - maybe some of this reaction to atheists discussing religion comes from some idea that a person can't honestly examine religion and stay an atheist, so they must just be here to snipe. I don't think this is true in all cases, but I think it would explain some of the reaction.

 

[Meow Mix]

I want to know why you quoted this verse. And I'm not sure which translation it is. But it isn't the best. I don't think it says "revealed scriptures".

The only instance where "faith" is mentioned in the Gita is in reference to scriptures.

It requires faith to believe in a scripture you read. If you have the ability to understand well what you read, then you have to decide what you make out of it. Whether it was written by man without it being intended by God as to be a source of spiritual wisdom in order to know about Him or not. Whether it is truth encapsulated in words or mere make believe stuff like reading a fictional children's story book or whether it was a mere accident, rearrangement of words out of a probability by itself without a conscious author writing it or it having been altered by others as opposed to its author as how he intended.

Everything that happens, happens because of God. Hindus believe that man is a puppet on an extreme level to the Supreme, ultimately.

So how can any particular object in existence be something so "special" as to have a status of being "deliberately" intended by God for some specific reason? And of all reasons - that being to know, approach and worship Him?

Faith here is not a demand of that which is irrational or out of fear. But "faith" here being a brute fact that has to be had otherwise there is no way to accept what is being offered.

A scripture has an intention. It aims to impart necessary knowledge to the aspirant.

At the end of the day what makes a Jew believe in the Torah, a Christian believe in the Gospel and a Muslim believe in the Quran as being the words of a Supreme Being? - the answer is faith.

What makes Jews accept and pursue the state of Israel as per Aliyah to the Promised Land and the coming of the Messiah, Christians accept and thump the Bible over the Second Coming of Jesus, Muslims accept and seek to implement Shariah and hold the belief in the Al-Qiyamah, even in the face of all odds being against these agendas and beliefs? - one thing alone is in involvement here that makes it possible and that is faith.

All these people, believe in something that defines their present and future. And faith is what empowers them to do all sorts of things to achieve their pursuits.

Even if you are an individual theist who had concepts regarding a deity and you believed them to be absolute and eternal truths. And you wrote them down on several pages. They would be your scriptures. The moment you start to have doubts. There goes everything. And unhappiness ensues.

There is correlation between emotions and faith. The greater the subject discussed by the object of faith or the object of faith is, the more immense the emotions are regarding them by those who have faith them.

So what does this appeal to emotion have anything to do with truth or reality?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ah, yet another who separates science from God. Did you ever think that maybe science is the "how" and God is the "why"?

Perhaps, however, there is absolutely no objective evidence that this is so.

If there was no right and wrong, you would all be scum to me and I could go live like life's just another copy of Grand Theft Auto and have the time of my life. You don't know the difference in right and wrong though. Go molest a kid real quick and lemme know what happens.

Really? You need some supernatural being or paranormal experience to tell you what is socially moral?

Trauma has a severe scientific effect on the brain that can't be explained without concepts like right and wrong. People who commit sick and depraved crimes allow evil to flow into their mind altering their personalities and making them crave even worse things(and more of it too).

Do you have evidence of this substance you call evil?

You just haven't done anything insanely good or insanely bad enough to induce such spiritual phenomenons and their affects on your mind and body

.
Baseless speculation.

One way to induce this trauma without having to do something terrible or amazing, is DMT.

Oh!! Good idea!! No better way to understand the real world than through the use of hallucinogenics!

Your moods, your energy, your dreams, and everything you feel... to say they come from you is just stupid.

Not stupid. Factual.

That'd mean that when you're in a bad mood, you're actually not, you're just sitting their torturing yourself making your own life miserable.

Or maybe your just coming down from a bad trip....

 

[waitasec]

Personally, I think the whole idea that a religious forum wouldn't attract atheists is a bit odd. Start a forum on any topic, and you'll attract people of all types who have strong feelings on that topic.

In some cases, strong feelings imply positive feelings, because people who don't like a thing just don't care about it... like the example of the Pokemon fan club that was brought up a few pages back. In other cases, people have strong feelings on both sides.

Nobody would think it strange if a discussion forum dedicated to, say, medieval European history attracted people who were opposed to the idea of monarchy or thought that most of the prominient figures of medieval Europe were bad people. They'd just be one more voice that was represented there.

Same with religion, IMO: you don't necessarily have to agree with religion to think that it's a topic worth discussing.

Edit: a light bulb just came on in my head - maybe some of this reaction to atheists discussing religion comes from some idea that a person can't honestly examine religion and stay an atheist, so they must just be here to snipe. I don't think this is true in all cases, but I think it would explain some of the reaction.

here in the states we're battling the ideals of church and state and how religious beliefs make nice people commit acts of divine injustice in the name of religious faith, and what better place to go head to head and try to reason without getting punched in the face....

 

[tumbleweed41]

THERE HAVE BEEN NO ACCOUNTS OF ANY OTHER "DRUG" THAT HAS SENT SO MANY MINDS TO THE SAME "PLACE" AS DESCRIBED BY THOSE EXPERIENCING DMT.

WOW!! An alkaloid hallucinogenic that makes the user see weird stuff!
(All explainable with simple Pharmacodynamics)

 

[SnifferOuter77]

Really? You need some supernatural being or paranormal experience to tell you what is socially moral?

Oh!! Good idea!! No better way to understand the real world than through the use of hallucinogenics!

I'll answer your first question with another question if you don't mind... do animals have morals? If you say yes, I'll be praying for you...

As for your own moral inflexibility towards foreign substances, did you know that the Double Helix concept of our DNA was discovered on LSD? Look it up.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Santo Daime

 

[SnifferOuter77]

WOW!! An alkaloid hallucinogenic that makes the user see weird stuff!
(All explainable with simple Pharmacodynamics)

* Edited out * . Read it again. Countless users of DMT have reported going to the same realm and having the same spiritual encounter. LSD will make you see anything from trolls to leprechauns. But never has it sent hundreds of people to the same place with the same details of their visuals. Pretty weird, if you read it without trying to prove you're smarter than it.

 

[waitasec]

I'll answer your first question with another question if you don't mind... do animals have morals? If you say yes, I'll be praying for you...

As for your own moral inflexibility towards foreign substances, did you know that the Double Helix concept of our DNA was discovered on LSD? Look it up.

what do you call empathy? is it a moral attribute?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I'll answer your first question with another question if you don't mind... do animals have morals? If you say yes, I'll be praying for you...

As for your own moral inflexibility towards foreign substances, did you know that the Double Helix concept of our DNA was discovered on LSD? Look it up.

First of all, I have no moral inflexibility towards foreign substances. I do have a low tolerance, however, for inaccurate and inane statements that link hallucinogens to real world experience.
I also have a low tolerance for inaccurate statements claimed as facts, such as the claim that James D. Watson and Francis Crick were on LSD when they discovered the double helix. While there are rumors, particularly among sites promoting hallucinogens, there is no evidence that this is so.
A more accurate claim would be that Kary Mullis, the man who basically invented polymerase chain reaction, claimed that his conception of the technique was inspired by LSD.

As to ethical behavior in social animals, yes, it is constantly being observed. Particularly among higher mammals.
Socially ethical behavior is a result of societal evolution.