Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

[CG Didymus]

However, if they publicly claim that a god does exist, people are going to want some sort of evidence, especially if a person claims that there is evidence.

Yes, and that is what some religious people do.

the idea I should respect all beliefs is absurd, as I'd have to respect beliefs that contradict each other.

And how far does anyone really "respect" the beliefs of another when they contradict the beliefs of they have? Now respecting that they have a right to have their own beliefs is different.

I asked if you thought we should respect the beliefs of the KKK for example or IS?

But then some beliefs are a danger to others and promote prejudice and hate.

all beliefs should be respected, while implying atheists should not subject theistic beliefs to critical scrutiny.

Yes, if religious people want respect for their belief, then they should respect people that don't believe in their religious beliefs or any religious beliefs.

Especially since theism has a widespread influence on the world, and not all of it is innocuous.

Even within a religion, one sect will call another one wrong because they think that "wrong" belief is spiritual poison. Religious beliefs still are part of the reason one people go against another people. So, it's great that some people in the different religions are respectful towards others in another religions, but do they still believe that their religion is right and the other wrong? I think lots of religious people do. So, is it respect or just tolerating and putting up with people that believe in a different religion?

Then there are those that go out and "witness", or some call it "teaching" the word, or in some way try to promote their beliefs on others... as if those beliefs are true. And, if those beliefs aren't true? If they are wrong, is it innocuous? And, since all religious beliefs are different and even contradict each other, some, or all of them, might be wrong. So, I respect you and all the other Atheists for doing and saying the things you do. If religious people have proof, then fine. If they don't proof and make claims about Gods and prophets? Then that's not fine.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When words as "your faith is wrong, your religion is wrong" or similar
Or when certain people do not accept anything you say from a personal belief.
The it's just bias.

Mostly all in RF know that when I speak it is from a personal belief in God my question then become
How can those people say my personal belief is wrong?

It is personal beliefs, meaning if others believe different, that is no problem at all.

It's not meant to be taken personal just a person's opinion of what he or she feels is right or wrong. For example, christianity promotes segregation between believers and disbelievers. The believers are in god's favor and the disbelievers are not. I don't agree with segregation on any terms so I feel that religion is wrong.

I'm not attacking the people who believe in such a thing just criticizing the morality of their belief based on "my" understanding, experience, and observation.

Of course, everyone doesn't have the same intentions but yes, it is a bias. It's an understandable bias though. For example, you have bias when it comes to spiritual vs. non-spiritual people. We all have our biases but the key is unless they are talking about you specifically, it's just an opinion. Unfortunately, many theists' opinion does more harm (say indoctrination) than those who have no belief and share their opinion. In my view, I'd be more concerned about how a person's belief affects other people more so than whether or not one holds an opinion that a belief is right or wrong.

They say a said belief is wrong based on their experiences, bias, observation, and things like that... just as theist say their belief is true because of their experiences, biases, and observations. It becomes a problem when those beliefs (whether for or against) harm others. On RF they're just opinions.

But outside of those reasons, I wouldn't know.

What would be your approach to solve the problem without changing how a person expresses their opinions, their morals, and what they express?

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's not meant to be taken personal just a person's opinion of what he or she feels is right or wrong. For example, christianity promotes segregation between believers and disbelievers. The believers are in god's favor and the disbelievers are not. I don't agree with segregation on any terms so I feel that religion is wrong.

I'm not attacking the people who believe in such a thing just criticizing the morality of their belief based on "my" understanding, experience, and observation.

Of course, everyone doesn't have the same intentions but yes, it is a bias. It's an understandable bias though. For example, you have bias when it comes to spiritual vs. non-spiritual people. We all have our biases but the key is unless they are talking about you specifically, it's just an opinion. Unfortunately, many theists' opinion does more harm (say indoctrination) than those who have no belief and share their opinion. In my view, I'd be more concerned about how a person's belief affects other people more so than whether or not one holds an opinion that a belief is right or wrong.

They say a said belief is wrong based on their experiences, bias, observation, and things like that... just as theist say their belief is true because of their experiences, biases, and observations. It becomes a problem when those beliefs (whether for or against) harm others. On RF they're just opinions.

But outside of those reasons, I wouldn't know.

What would be your approach to solve the problem without changing how a person expresses their opinions, their morals, and what they express?

Please do understand, I do not see you as a problem at all in RF @Unveiled Artist

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please do understand, I do not see you as a problem at all in RF @Unveiled Artist

Its only an example. I do better with my points when I use myself as an example. However, in general people are saying the belief is wrong in and of itself not the person who holds that belief. It's wrong to the person because of experiences, biases, and so forth but their opinion (I would hope) isn't intended to discredit your right to that belief system. Regardless the religion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Its only an example. I do better with my points when I use myself as an example. However, in general people are saying the belief is wrong in and of itself not the person who holds that belief. It's wrong to the person because of experiences, biases, and so forth but their opinion (I would hope) isn't intended to discredit your right to that belief system. Regardless the religion.

It's ok to disbelieve, it is certain comments that is not needed to be said, that is the point of me asking the why don't.

But I can change it to.

What does non-believers out of making negative comments about different faiths and beliefs they them self do not hold? Why the need to be rude? As some few are often.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's ok to disbelieve, it is certain comments that is not needed to be said, that is the point of me asking the why don't.

But I can change it to.

What does non-believers out of making negative comments about different faiths and beliefs they them self do not hold? Why the need to be rude? As some few are often.

Most answers say that people holding that belief does harm to others. They are associating the belief to believers' behaviors not the theology they hold. Saying a belief is wrong, false, or whatever isn't being rude, though. It would be rude if they said to you that you are, I don't know, stupid for holding a said belief. However, if they said the believe itself is stupid, I wouldn't see a problem with it. I get why believers would take that personally-I mean if someone says they hate god, the believer may take that personal as if they insulted a god. However, if one is an atheist and said that most likely they are hating the theology of god or the idea of god not god itself as a believer would think. They're not insulting god that they don't believe in but the idea of god that its practitioners have done harm to others because of their god.

I know this doesn't change how you feel, but it is bias. What solutions could there be, though?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Most answers say that people holding that belief does harm to others. They are associating the belief to believers' behaviors not the theology they hold. Saying a belief is wrong, false, or whatever isn't being rude, though. It would be rude if they said to you that you are, I don't know, stupid for holding a said belief. However, if they said the believe itself is stupid, I wouldn't see a problem with it. I get why believers would take that personally-I mean if someone says they hate god, the believer may take that personal as if they insulted a god. However, if one is an atheist and said that most likely they are hating the theology of god or the idea of god not god itself as a believer would think. They're not insulting god that they don't believe in but the idea of god that its practitioners have done harm to others because of their god.

I know this doesn't change how you feel, but it is bias. What solutions could there be, though?

Mostly all believers are non harming to others, but it is those who harm that get in the new, so people think that represent any religion which it does not.

Solution, accept that different people believe and think differently, just like atheists want to be respected for their non belief from religious people.

Even in same religion or spiritual practice people understand the teacher and teaching differently, so don't expect to get the same answer from people from same faith. It is an individual practice

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Mostly all believers are non harming to others, but it is those who harm that get in the new, so people think that represent any religion which it does not.

Solution, accept that different people believe and think differently, just like atheists want to be respected for their non belief from religious people.

Even in same religion or spiritual practice people understand the teacher and teaching differently, so don't expect to get the same answer from people from same faith. It is an individual practice

Harm can mean christian parents can have genuine love for their child but their morals determine who their child should love, why, when, and how if they can love any person at all. Most parents I would assume teach their child according to their religious morals. However, when there is a conflict between what the child wants and believes despite their parents there's a problem. In some countries and households it can be abuse to the less extreme.

It doesn't need to be fighting to do harm.

 

[Neuropteron]

Why should someone have to prove to you that "their belief" is right for them. It is a personal belief in a religious faith they hold. Who are you to say they are wrong, or it is not logical to believe as they do, because YOU don't believe what they do.

Who are you to tell a faithful believer that their belief is wrong, because there is no "evidence" that YOU accept to be true?

It is not your belief/disbelief, but if the faithful believer has all the personal evidence that their belief is right for them.

Who are you to tell them it is not?
The believer has the proof they need personally to hold their faithful belief in what ever religious faith they follow. They do not have to prove it to anybody.

You can ask: why do you believe so or so, and what ever the answer you get that is why that person believe what they do. You do not have the right to say "your belief is wrong" just because you disagree. Accept that people believe and walk away.

And yes I know your attack will come...who cares anyway????

Hi,

What you say makes a lot of sense, nonetheless there are many facets to this issues that could be be mentioned.
For instance if you did not welcome it, it would be wrong to discuss a different opinion with you.
However, in this case since you asked it would be perfectly acceptable to discuss reasons for a different viepoint. The same can apply to religious faith.

Another possible reason for questioning a persons faith is the belief that there is only one truth that leads to salvation and that polite presentation of it is a sign of concern for other.

It is interesting to note that Christ did not stay silent regarding the worship that he revealed as being false worship.

According to Roman 12:2 the only one that can offer proof for your faith is yourself, thus attempting to convince others is a waste of time, the best a believer can do is to encourage to look at the evidence you've discovered.(Rom 12:2
"that you may prove to yourself...the will of God")

Concerning giving a response to those that require one of you, the scriptures say the following:
Col 4:6
"so you know how to give an answer to anyone"
1Pet 3:15
"...alway ready to make a defense before anyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you"

 

[Spirit of Light]

Hi,

What you say makes a lot of sense, nonetheless there are many facets to this issues that could be be mentioned.
For instance if you did not welcome it, it would be wrong to discuss a different opinion with you.
However, in this case since you asked it would be perfectly acceptable to discuss reasons for a different viepoint. The same can apply to religious faith.

Another possible reason for questioning a persons faith is the belief that there is only one truth that leads to salvation and that polite presentation of it is a sign of concern for other.

It is interesting to note that Christ did not stay silent regarding the worship that he revealed as being false worship.

According to Roman 12:2 the only one that can offer proof for your faith is yourself, thus attempting to convince others is a waste of time, the best a believer can do is to encourage to look at the evidence you've discovered.(Rom 12:2
"that you may prove to yourself...the will of God")

Concerning giving a response to those that require one of you, the scriptures say the following:
Col 4:6
"so you know how to give an answer to anyone"
1Pet 3:15
"...alway ready to make a defense before anyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you"

You have some very good points in your reply. Yes discussion are always welcome. What is not ok is the constant negativity toward individual believers and their personal beliefs, as examples is the " you are wrong" just because someone disagree does not make a personal belief more wrong.

A straman fallacy does not become a strawman fallacy someone believe you don't understand your own belief or they think you are wrong in your faith.

Mostly I think those who make negative"critique" do it to "test" the believers

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which are?

Depends on contexts.

I didn't ask you what it was, I asked if you thought we should respect the beliefs of the KKK for example or IS? I could equally have asked if you respect the belief the earth is round, while simultaneously respecting the belief it is flat?

As I said, people I respect, their right to believe whatever they want, even the KKK, I respect, that is the price of freedom of speech and expression, but the belief itself has to be judged on it's own merits. the idea I should respect all beliefs is absurd, as I'd have to respect beliefs that contradict each other.

Yeah, all other beliefs different that yours are exactly like the KKK and IS. All other beliefs!!! I know. All the different cultures and subcultures. different religious people, different political ideologies and so on including all posters with different beliefs than yours are like the KKK and IS.
I get it!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
As is that claim, and you claimed all beliefs were fundamentally the same.

In terms of metaphysical beliefs.

You're just obfuscating, do you or do you not respect all beliefs? If not then why challenge my claim if you share the opinion?

I don't use respect or a lack of it. So in my case it is irrelevant.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes it is a fact, and no it isn't without evidence. Unless we are about to delve into semantics about what physical means?

Well, then deliver the physical facts of "No, everything is not physical".

 

[Sheldon]

Depends on contexts.

What? The context of this exchange, obviously?

So the KKK, should we respect their beliefs?

I have subjective beliefs about it, which are without evidence, facts and all that.

Which are?

You just seem to obfuscating now.

 

[Sheldon]

In terms of metaphysical beliefs.

Not what you originally said.

I don't use respect or a lack of it. So in my case it is irrelevant.

Now you're just being silly, this entire rather long and pointless exchange was predicated on your repudiating my assertion that it was absurd to claim all beliefs should be respected. Sorry but that just strikes me as the lamest of excuses, or dishonest semantics.

It is clear the idea we should respect all beliefs would mean we would end up respecting (pick your own word) contradictory beliefs, and deeply pernicious beliefs, thus I find the notion absurd, if you haven't an opinion and don't respect anything why did you bother to respond?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What? The context of this exchange, obviously?







You just seem to obfuscating now.

You are asking me about an American cultural phenomenon, which has many forms. Would I if relevant to context kill a racist trying to do an unlawful killing? Yes! Hope that makes you feel better. But that is only one context. There are many other involving other humans even with racists.

 

[Sheldon]

Well, then deliver the physical facts of "No, everything is not physical".

Why I would need to demonstrate facts to support your claim, when I disagreed with it?

it is not a fact that the world is physical. That is a belief without evidence.

Yes it is a fact, and no it isn't without evidence.

Clearly it is a fact the world is physical, and clearly it can be evidenced.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not what you originally said.

Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

Now you're just being silly, this entire rather long and pointless exchange was predicated on your repudiating my assertion that it was absurd to claim all beliefs should be respected. Sorry but that just strikes me as the lamest of excuses, or dishonest semantics.

It is clear the idea we should respect all beliefs would mean we would end up respecting (pick your own word) contradictory beliefs, and deeply pernicious beliefs, thus I find the notion absurd, if you haven't an opinion and don't respect anything why did you bother to respond?

Since, I don't believe that you can do all of the world in strict logical terms, there will always be non-logical cases.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why I would need to demonstrate facts to support your claim, when I disagreed with it?





Clearly it is a fact the world is physical, and clearly it can be evidenced.

If everything is physical, then the answer: No! is physical. Now transcribe the No! to physical facts.

 

[Sheldon]

You are asking me about an American cultural phenomenon, which has many forms. Would I if relevant to context kill a racist trying to do an unlawful killing? Yes! Hope that makes you feel better. But that is only one context. There are many other involving other humans even with racists.

I am asking you to justify your claim that I was wrong, when i said it was absurd to claim all beliefs should be respected. I gave you several examples, you have refused to justify your claim.

However this has been a lot of work for not return again, I think I shall have to just start ignoring your relentless challenges that seem to go nowhere, and just derail the debate.