Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[Katzpur]

You do this even though it is contrary to what Jesus and the scriptures say on the matter.
I mean it's understandable if you were raised in this belief and have only known this by what others say or teach,but have you read the scriptures on this issue,I mean in depth.

Which of Jesus' teachings does our doctrine contradict?

 

[Katzpur]

I think, by the word "association", that Blindlight means he does not want any religous rites of passage, rituals, or any other associated ideas, to be done to him, when he explicitly stated that he did not wish for these to occur to him when he was alive.

What I'm trying to figure out is why. If he's dead, how is it going to adversely affect him? I just don't get what the fuss is all about. It's not as if it's going to have any bearing on his eternal destiny. As far as I'm concerned, it's much ado about nothing. As another Latter-day Saint once put it, if we were to go through the obituaries every day and pick a handful of names and say them backwards three times, believing that if we did, those people would be saved, wouldn't people just dismiss the whole thing as a silly notion? If you knew that after you had died, I'd read your obituary and say "esjor, esjor, esjor" would you seriously consider getting a lawyer to make sure I didn't? If the answer is "yes" (I can't imagine it would be, but let's say it was), could you explain to me why?

 

[Blindinglight]

Incidentally, this is the third post I've directed to you personally. Did you intend to ignore all of them? I'm just curious because all of my questions to you have been entirely respectful. Is there some reason why you've chosen to ignore them?

I have answered it, with a simple "I do not wish to be associated with any religion."

I think, by the word "association", that Blindlight means he does not want any religous rites of passage, rituals, or any other associated ideas, to be done to him, when he explicitly stated that he did not wish for these to occur to him when he was alive.

Exactly.

And I am seriously wondering if people believe the Jews are the only ones who can raise hell over this issue, and nobody wonders why? I haven't seen a single post asking why they see it as such a big deal. A no sarcasm please.

 

[jonny]

I think that's great, Victor. But, I'm not sure that's the norm. In fact, I can't imagine too many Baptists or Evangelical Christians who would be happy about being baptized after death.

This quote just reminded me of one of a funny quote from J. Golden Kimball - a pretty "colorful" LDS General authority. He went on a mission to the Southern States back in the early 1900s. He said something to the effect that "The only way to redeem the South is to burn it down and baptize for the dead." It's just a joke, of course.

 

[Buttercup]

This quote just reminded me of one of a funny quote from J. Golden Kimball - a pretty "colorful" LDS General authority. He went on a mission to the Southern States back in the early 1900s. He said something to the effect that "The only way to redeem the South is to burn it down and baptize for the dead." It's just a joke, of course.

hahaaaaa! Dang S. Baptists.....make all the rest of 'em look bad too.

 

[jonny]

You do this even though it is contrary to what Jesus and the scriptures say on the matter.
I mean it's understandable if you were raised in this belief and have only known this by what others say or teach,but have you read the scriptures on this issue,I mean in depth.

You know, I've been Mormon for 28 years. I've taken college level classes on scripture, taken four years of seminary classes, 16 years of Sunday School classes (I'm not counting the 12 years of primary classes), and institute classes. I also spent two years as a full-time missionary where I was required to study the scriptures in depth for a few hours ever day. You seem to think I've never cracked open a bible and have no clue what it says. I'd respectfully disagree with you on this point. I'm not going to debate the doctrine with you because there is really no point - neither of us will be convinced either way. Let me just assure you that I have no problem finding biblical support for my beliefs - including my beliefs on the afterlife.

 

[Katzpur]

I have answered it, with a simple "I do not wish to be associated with any religion."

And a proxy baptism would cause you to be associated with Mormonism? I'm a Mormon and I certainly don't consider everyone for whom a proxy baptism has been performed to be associated with my religion. Part of me is inclined to try to have a rational conversation with you on this topic, but part of me says "Why bother?" I'm going to give you one analogy to try to explain why I think that you (and anybody else, including the Jews, who may feel as you do) is overreacting. And then I'll just give up, as I end up doing every time I have this conversation with someone. Suppose I were to mail you two free tickets to a "sold out" concert. When you got these tickets, you could either use them to see the concert or toss them in the garbage. If you didn't want to use them, would you be angry with me for sending them to you? If the answer is "yes," could you explain why?

And I am seriously wondering if people believe the Jews are the only ones who can raise hell over this issue, and nobody wonders why?

They're not the only ones who can raise hell over it. Anybody who wants to can, as you have shown.

 

[jonny]

Which of Jesus' teachings does our doctrine contradict?

I think the one that says that anyone who isn't an Evangelical Christian on the day they die will burn in hell for eternity. I can't remember what the reference is, but I'm sure it's in there. I think it's in Romans somewhere.

 

[rojse]

What I'm trying to figure out is why. If he's dead, how is it going to adversely affect him?

I will try and remove myself from speculation on Blindinglight's wishes, and answer them as if it was asked to me.

Firstly, I would turn the question back at you: How would anyone's association with a religion when they are dead help you personally, or help their family?

My personal opinion is that it is false hope. If God exists, I won't go to heaven just because I have been baptised years after my death. All that it does is make the blesser feel better, and makes those ask for the blessing feel better.

If I have a spiritual existence when I die, I would despise the people that so flagrantly went against my wishes. If I did not have a spiritual existenc, I would not be able to care.

 

[Booko]

Or perhaps he just sees it as an insult. It is possible for someone to see this as an insult without believing that this insult has some kind of “power”.

Clearly, since people are insulted by it, and that includes people who would not believe there is any sort of power behind it.

I may not understand it myself, but I can observe that it happens.

I just wish I could understand it better, is all.

 

[jonny]

And I am seriously wondering if people believe the Jews are the only ones who can raise hell over this issue, and nobody wonders why? I haven't seen a single post asking why they see it as such a big deal. A no sarcasm please.

Mormons have a lot of respect for Jews. In the 1800s, an LDS missionary named Orson Hyde was sent to Palestine to dedicate it for the gathering of the Jews.

This Wikipedia article is a pretty good explanation of how the Mormons view the Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism

A lot of Mormons (including me) take the phrase "the last shall be first and the first shall be last" to mean that the Jews will receive the gospel shortly before the return of Christ. That's why I don't have a problem with not proselytizing to the Jews. You can read a discussion on this topic between members of the LDS church here: http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2314

Mormons still believe that the Jews are the covenant people of God.

 

[Booko]

I'm starting to wonder. People are confused over me not wanting my name wrote down in a book, pdf, text file, or whatever the LDS keep the names of post-mortum baptisms on, but no one has asked why the Jews have thrown some very large fits over it.

Actually, I did address that, Blindinglight, but it may well have gotten buried.

Simply put, I DO NOT want my name associated with any religion, now or when I'm dead. I don't see that as a very complicated final request.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Booko]

You do this even though it is contrary to what Jesus and the scriptures say on the matter.
I mean it's understandable if you were raised in this belief and have only known this by what others say or teach,but have you read the scriptures on this issue,I mean in depth.

Roli, if you want to debate the Scriptural validity of proxy baptisms with Mormons, please start a new thread.

 

[Blindinglight]

And a proxy baptism would cause you to be associated with Mormonism? I'm a Mormon and I certainly don't consider everyone for whom a proxy baptism has been performed to be associated with my religion. Part of me is inclined to try to have a rational conversation with you on this topic, but part of me says "Why bother?" I'm going to give you one analogy to try to explain why I think that you (and anybody else, including the Jews, who may feel as you do) is overreacting. And then I'll just give up, as I end up doing every time I have this conversation with someone. Suppose I were to mail you two free tickets to a "sold out" concert. When you got these tickets, you could either use them to see the concert or toss them in the garbage. If you didn't want to use them, would you be angry with me for sending them to you? If the answer is "yes," could you explain why?

Because I do not want my name in there records as being baptised. Published, private, kept under lock and key, or whatever. I simply do not want my name baptised.
I feel the practice is an attempt to take what the person believed in, and change it. I do not believe it has any effect, nor does any baptism, but it is still my name, being used for a religious ritual without my consent, and will go down in there record books as having been baptised.

I'm trying to think of an example. Hypothetically, let's say when you die, a few generations later, one of your descendants becomes a Satanist. Your descendant decides to make you a charter member. Only a few know of it, but the fact remains your name is now associated with the Church of Satan, and some might have wishful thinking that you are now in Hell, standing along side your new master, Satan.

 

[jonny]

I will try and remove myself from speculation on Blindinglight's wishes, and answer them as if it was asked to me.

Firstly, I would turn the question back at you: How would anyone's association with a religion when they are dead help you personally, or help their family?

My personal opinion is that it is false hope. If God exists, I won't go to heaven just because I have been baptised years after my death. All that it does is make the blesser feel better, and makes those ask for the blessing feel better.

If I have a spiritual existence when I die, I would despise the people that so flagrantly went against my wishes. If I did not have a spiritual existenc, I would not be able to care.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe that the next life is a new life or a continuation of this life. I believe that it is a continuation of this life, so the idea that you can continue to think, reason, and convert after death makes complete sense to me. Most Christians believe that the thinking & reasoning have to be done in this life and that the next life exists for the purpose of mindlessly worshiping a egotistical God or burning in hell (ok - maybe that's my interpretation of their beliefs, but you get my point...).

 

[Booko]

This quote just reminded me of one of a funny quote from J. Golden Kimball - a pretty "colorful" LDS General authority. He went on a mission to the Southern States back in the early 1900s. He said something to the effect that "The only way to redeem the South is to burn it down and baptize for the dead." It's just a joke, of course.

It sounds like my husband's comment about Atlanta roads. He claims the best thing woudl've been for General Sherman to destroy the roads along with the rest of the city, so we could start again.

Oh dear, now *I'm* derailing this thread! :help: :bonk:

 

[Katzpur]

Firstly, I would turn the question back at you: How would anyone's association with a religion when they are dead help you personally, or help their family?

It won't help me in the slightest, at least not in this life. If I am baptized on behalf of a deceased ancestor, it is an unselfish gesture on my part. It's also one which that person may either accept or reject as he wishes.

If God exists, I won't go to heaven just because I have been baptised years after my death.

You are absolutely right. You won't. This is something that every Mormon alive will agree with you on.

If I have a spiritual existence when I die, I would despise the people that so flagrantly went against my wishes. If I did not have a spiritual existence, I would not be able to care.

Well, I promise you I won't personally be baptized on your behalf. Heaven knows I can't imagine how crushed I would be if you despised me.

This subject has been discussed extensively on RF in the past. I understand that there will always people who will find it offensive. Some of them have absolutely no desire to actually understand the doctrine. As far as I'm concerned, that's their problem. People are generally down on those things they aren't up on. For the benefit of those who may wish to make an informed decision on the matter, my OP in the thread "Baptizing the Dead?" will give them a good place to start.

 

[rojse]

So, if it does not help you, and it does not help me, why would you wish to do it, then?

 

[Katzpur]

I feel the practice is an attempt to take what the person believed in, and change it.

Well, you obviously don't have a clue what the practice is really all about then, because that's not what the practice is intended to do.

I'm trying to think of an example. Hypothetically, let's say when you die, a few generations later, one of your descendants becomes a Satanist. Your descendant decides to make you a charter member. Only a few know of it, but the fact remains your name is now associated with the Church of Satan, and some might have wishful thinking that you are now in Hell, standing along side your new master, Satan.

Your hypothetical example has nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS practice of proxy baptism. I could care less if one of my descendents wants to make me a charter member of the Church of Satan. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

 

[Katzpur]

So, if it does not help you, and it does not help me, why would you wish to do it, then?

Read my OP in the link I provided. If, after reading it, you still don't understand why we perform proxy baptisms, tell me and I'll try to explain. I just don't see any reason to repeat what I spent a lot of time explaining once already.