Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[Smoke]

Putting flowers on graves is a religious rite.

Not to me. I do it without any accompanying ritual and with no religious intent. I imagine most people do the same.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

What I do not like is that you are fostering on different ideals and labels onto those that are not with us any more. I do not want any associations with religions that I did not have while I was alive, just the same as I would not want any associations with any products or any businesses that I did not have when I was alive. I don't want to be baptised by LDS when I die, just the same as I don't want my image or face trying selling vacuum cleaners, or food, or anything else for that matter. It is an extremely crude comparison, but I lack the eloquence to express it better.

I would like to ask in return, what does my baptism for LDS, or any other church, for that matter, does for you personally, or your religion in general?

I can see your point, but at the end of the day, if someone did a proxy and you had actually seen God and the truth and still didnt want to accept it then you are entitled to decline it. That is upto you.... it doesnt make the actual baptism a bad thing...... Going back to my walking through a door analogy..... if you are right and there is nothing on the other side... then what does it matter you will be dead!!!!! People could have a zoo put on your grave and you wouldnt know about it. However if we (LDS) are right and there is something on the other side and you get there and think "My oh my, those crazy Mormons were right......damn! I told everyone not to give me a proxy baptism cos I was completely against it" - what you going to do? Wouldnt you prefer someone to do it for you just in case!

 

[Booko]

You would be mad now or you would have been mad then?

I would be mad just knowing she'd do that.

I would've been mad after death, but as an athiest, I wouldn't expect to find out.

 

[rojse]

you are right and there is nothing on the other side... then what does it matter you will be dead!!!!!

But saying that you can do anything to me, because it would not matter if I was dead, is like saying that it would also be alright to go and dance over my grave and paint obscene graffiti over my tombstone because I do not believe in the afterlife. You wouldn't dance or paint graffiti, (I am hoping not) so why would you give me a baptism?

I think that we should respect the wishes of dead people, no matter what we personally think. If we do not base this on the idea that they are watching over us as spirits or the like, we could think of it in terms of the respect of our memories of them, and if we do not know them, in terms of the respect for the memories that other people have of them.

And, you still have not answered my question about what you think a baptism would do for me.

 

[jonny]

And, you still have not answered my question about what you think a baptism would do for me.

I'm pretty sure this has been covered in the thread, but I'll explain it again for you.

The baptism does nothing for you if you decide not to accept it.

The baptism enables you to have all the blessings associated with baptism, as if you had been baptised while alive on earth, if you do accept it.

That's kind of simplifying things, but you get the point.

 

[Kungfuzed]

I wonder if there is anyone here who would be offended, if they somehow discovered that the spirits in the afterlife were preforming rituals and ordinances for the living? Would you use a medium to contact a dead lawyer and file a lawsuit?

 

[rocka21]

The baptism enables you to have all the blessings associated with baptism, as if you had been baptised while alive on earth, if you do accept it.

didn't one repent first before baptism? isn't baptism an outward sign of what " already" happened on the inside?

how could you know if the dead person has repented or made a change in his heart?

 

[jonny]

didn't one repent first before baptism? isn't baptism an outward sign of what " already" happened on the inside?

Yes & Yes.

how could you know if the dead person has repented or made a change in his heart?

We don't usually, although I have had instances where I knew that the person whose work I was doing had been waiting for it to be done.

We do the temple work for everyone and let them work things out in heaven. Faith and repentence are part of the process when we say "accepting" the baptism.

 

[rocka21]

We do the temple work for everyone and let them work things out in heaven. Faith and repentence are part of the process when we say "accepting" the baptism.

it still seems a little " cart before the horse", ( i still think faith and repentence first, then the baptism), but i might not be fully understanding the process.

thanks for the reply Jonny.

 

[jonny]

it still seems a little " cart before the horse", ( i still think faith and repentence first, then the baptism), but i might not be fully understanding the process.

thanks for the reply Jonny.

I don't think that we fully understand how things work on the "other side" either. We believe that missionary work is being done, and that people can accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. We believe that baptism is a necessary step in eternal progression and that many of those who have accepted the gospel are waiting for these ordinances to be performed. I believe strongly that we have help with our geneology from those on the other side and that those who are waiting "help" us find their names and information so that their work can be performed. My family has had many spiritual experiences in this regard.

 

[rocka21]

I don't think that we fully understand how things work on the "other side" either. We believe that missionary work is being done, and that people can accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. We believe that baptism is a necessary step in eternal progression and that many of those who have accepted the gospel are waiting for these ordinances to be performed. I believe strongly that we have help with our geneology from those on the other side and that those who are waiting "help" us find their names and information so that their work can be performed. My family has had many spiritual experiences in this regard.

can't baptism can take place on the other side as well?

i still think that accepting Jesus, repentance , baptism, happen on this side only, but now i understand a little more on why Lds do this. thanks.

 

[jonny]

can't baptism can take place on the other side as well?

No, because we believe you need to have a body in order to be baptised, which is why we stand in as "proxy" for someone else.

 

[rocka21]

No, because we believe you need to have a body in order to be baptised, which is why we stand in as "proxy" for someone else.

thats why i think , when you are dead , its to late. ( you have no body).

i believe you don't need ' faith" in the afterlife, faith is only needed on earth. In the afterlife we will have all the answers.

you need faith to believe
faith to repent
faith to get baptised.

thanks again jonny

 

[jonny]

You have no body, but you still have reason and the ability to think and make decisions. Mormons believe in a period of time after death where we wait the judgment and resurrection. During this time, we don't have all the answers, and we still rely on faith. It is an extension of this life, but without a body. Before the judgment, one can still accept and convert to the gospel.

 

[Blindinglight]

By that definition, your name has probably already been "associated" with many religions, and will be associeated with more after you die. Are you going to hunt down all the religious people you meet and ask them not to pray for you? Many write lists of people they pray for, y'know, and they don't even ask the people's permission!

As I said, I am concerned with official documents. I really don't care if people waste there prayers on me.
But from my understanding, it is noted when a dead person's name is baptised. Thus, the note being official church documentation, it goes against my wishes.

 

[Katzpur]

thats why i think , when you are dead , its to late. ( you have no body).

i believe you don't need ' faith" in the afterlife, faith is only needed on earth. In the afterlife we will have all the answers.

you need faith to believe
faith to repent
faith to get baptised.

thanks again jonny

Rocka, do you believe in a physical resurrection, when the spirit will be reunited with a new, perfected, immortal body? If not, why? If so, when do you believe this resurrection will occur?

 

[Runt]

While I personally do not believe that baptism has any effect whatsoever on an individual---living or otherwise---I nevertheless find baptism by proxy to be an unethical practice in principle. Those performing the baptism believe that the individual they are baptizing still exists in some form and is still in possession of free will. Thus, the practice screams to me of forced conversion.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I think that we should respect the wishes of dead people, no matter what we personally think. If we do not base this on the idea that they are watching over us as spirits or the like, we could think of it in terms of the respect of our memories of them, and if we do not know them, in terms of the respect for the memories that other people have of them.

Exactly!!!! We should respect their wishes - we cant know if they have changed their minds! Ill go over my walking through the door theory again. Their is a door in front of you, we wont walk through it til we are dead, some say the room is red, others, white, blue, green etc. I person who things the room is red walks through and sees the room is actually white - I am assuming unless they are completely stubborn will change their opinion. So isnt it better to give them the OPTION and CHANCE of baptism.

Ok... lets say you have a friend who is an atheist. She is adament she doesnt want to be baptised in the earth life. She dies. Thinking your respecting her wishes you dont give permission for a proxy baptism to be performed and disagree with them completely. However what you dont know, is that this friend has seen the truth and wants to be baptised but you are denying her the chance to choose for herself - remember they dont have to accept it - so its slightly different to your grafitti theory! which I completely disagree with btw!

 

[nutshell]

Those performing the baptism believe that the individual they are baptizing still exists in some form and is still in possession of free will. Thus, the practice screams to me of forced conversion.

If the individual is still in possession of free will, how is it forced conversion? Did you mistype because you contradicted yourself?

 

[jonny]

If the individual is still in possession of free will, how is it forced conversion? Did you mistype because you contradicted yourself?

You really need to keep training on this Evangelical thing. I think you've got a long way to go.