Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[madhatter85]

I'll Reiterate, the everythging in the D&C can be cross refrenced with either the Book of Mormon, or the bible, or both.

the Catechism is full of biblcal refrences of ambigual text and lots of added things that have no refrence from whence they came.

 

[Bishka]

just like you have the " doctrine and covenants" the cathloics have the Catechism. smith and other " profits" got revelations, so why could not the popes and other "profits"? they also use the Catechism in conjunction with the bible.

I'm curious, what does this have to do with the current topic at hand?? Do you have a question about baptism for the dead or do you just wish to keep on slandering as you are doing? BTW, it's prophets, not profits.

 

[Runt]

If the individual is still in possession of free will, how is it forced conversion? Did you mistype because you contradicted yourself?

If you take a living person, tackle him, wrestle him into the water, and hold him down while a priest mumbles some words about the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, is he not a free-willed human being? Yes, he has the option to refuse to take the baptism seriously---to reject it even---but he has still been "baptized" by force.

 

[DeepShadow]

But there's a difference: he does not have the option not to be present. A proxy baptism that is rejected by the spirit does not have the spirit as participant. He might be playing cards with some other spirit, without the slightest care that some sot somewhere is getting wet in his or her name.

Or do you believe that spirits must appear when their names are spoken?

 

[Vjkingjr]

No where in the Bible does it even talk about baptising the dead. The problem with baptising for the dead, iv my view - is that the bible doesn't teach the doctorine of your soul drifiting to heaven, or hell..even if it did, then there would be no need for Christs second coming - the world would end and we would all float off to heaven. I mean, if you weren't a believer of God or the LDS church and your in heaven and all of a sudden some angel comes to you and sais .."well because someone has been baptised in your name, you can choose weather you want to go to Heaven or go to Hell" its not like your going to say i would prefer to go to hell and be in everlasting torment..but thanks anyway - OFCOURSE your going to want to go to heaven.

 

[Bishka]

No where in the Bible does it even talk about baptising the dead. The problem with baptising for the dead, iv my view - is that the bible doesn't teach the doctorine of your soul drifiting to heaven, or hell..even if it did, then there would be no need for Christs second coming - the world would end and we would all float off to heaven. I mean, if you weren't a believer of God or the LDS church and your in heaven and all of a sudden some angel comes to you and sais .."well because someone has been baptised in your name, you can choose weather you want to go to Heaven or go to Hell" its not like your going to say i would prefer to go to hell and be in everlasting torment..but thanks anyway - OFCOURSE your going to want to go to heaven.

Have you not been listening? That's not how it goes, does anybody actually bother reading what the LDS members here post before they go on and speak against the LDS Church?

 

[Runt]

The fact that you admit that this is a question of ethics means that there is no right or wrong answer to the question.

You are completely avoiding the possibility that this is the individual who is being baptised WANTS the baptism to occur.

There are right and wrong answers in ethics. They are just hard questions.

Yes, it is possible the soul wants baptism. But we here on earth have no way of knowing that. It's like... a Schrödinger’s Baptism, simultaneously a forced baptism and a welcome respite from Hell.

More seriously though... I have a serious difficulty with this concept of baptism by proxy. If the soul does exist after death, if a lack of baptism is enough to prevent it from entering Heaven, and if God or Jesus or whoever is content with a postmortem baptism being performed (hey, I personally have no problem with second chances!), then they can offer it in Heaven without the interference of humans on earth. That would allow the person being baptized to have a choice before the ritual takes place. Christ is more than capable of performing a baptism, and it would be much more immediate if performed on the willing soul itself, rather than by proxy on a living human back down on earth who has no prior knowledge that the soul wants baptism (and thus may be seriously wronging the soul).

Unless of course Christ isn't in Heaven to perform a baptism, or isn't capable of doing so, or God would accept only a baptism by proxy but not one performed by his own Son...

 

[Vjkingjr]

No sorry i didn't go through 14 pages of posts. Just expressing my opinion thats all.

 

[rocka21]

I'm curious, what does this have to do with the current topic at hand?? Do you have a question about baptism for the dead or do you just wish to keep on slandering as you are doing? BTW, it's prophets, not profits.

slander - words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another

can you give me an example, becky? i have been asking questions about baptism for the dead and most of the other lds on this thread have been kind enough to answer. We are doing just fine, and no one has accused me of slander.


if i have spoken false words that damage your reputation, i am sorry.

and BTW, some prophets do profit.

 

[rocka21]

Have you not been listening? That's not how it goes, does anybody actually bother reading what the LDS members here post before they go on and speak against the LDS Church?

go easy on him becky, it was his 11th post.:drool:


my young friend, the LDS on this site are very nice and if you ask them, they will be more that happy to show you where they get there beliefs.

 

[Runt]

But there's a difference: he does not have the option not to be present. A proxy baptism that is rejected by the spirit does not have the spirit as participant. He might be playing cards with some other spirit, without the slightest care that some sot somewhere is getting wet in his or her name.

Or do you believe that spirits must appear when their names are spoken?

I don't believe in spirits at all. It's the principle of the thing---the very notion, however fictional it may seem to be, of baptizing someone who didn't want to be baptized in life and very well may not want to be baptized in death---that bothers me. Despite the fact that I don't accept the efficacy of baptism or believe in the afterlife or the soul, the idea of forced conversion (however fictional the situation may seem to me and however well-meaning the intentions of those who believe) disturbs me as much as a fairy tale wherein stepsisters cut off their heels and toes in order to make a shoe fit on their feet; it's not the reality of the thing, it's the very idea, compounded with the fact that people actually believe they're able to do what, for me, is merely an exercise in imagination.

 

[Vjkingjr]

Haha yeh im a freshman =]

My best mate who lives 30 seconds down the road, is Mormon. I have been to seminary a few times with him..and also along to his Church on many occasions - so i am quiet well aware of their beliefs =] I also tryed the Mornoni 10 thing...but didn't get any warm fuzzy feeling. Its fun watching them come to the door all dressed up in suits calling themselves elders when they are still in their 20's and seeing my ol Dad having a debate with them..i learn alot from it aswell.

 

[Bishka]

of baptizing someone who didn't want to be baptized in life and very well may not want to be baptized in death---that bothers m.

How do you know they didn't want to be baptized in life? What if they never got the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

[Vjkingjr]

I don't believe in spirits at all. It's the principle of the thing---the very notion, however fictional it may seem to be, of baptizing someone who didn't want to be baptized in life and very well may not want to be baptized in death---that bothers me. Despite the fact that I don't accept the efficacy of baptism or believe in the afterlife or the soul, the idea of forced conversion (however fictional the situation may seem to me and however well-meaning the intentions of those who believe) disturbs me as much as a fairy tale wherein stepsisters cut off their heels and toes in order to make a shoe fit on their feet; it's not the reality of the thing, it's the very idea, compounded with the fact that people actually believe they're able to do what, for me, is merely an exercise in imagination.

Amen =]

 

[Bishka]

Its fun watching them come to the door all dressed up in suits calling themselves elders when they are still in their 20's

Elders is not to denote an old age as many people think. It's meant to denote a calling in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. An Elder can be 19 or 80 -- it's not a matter of age, just a matter of calling.

 

[Vjkingjr]

How do you know they didn't want to be baptized in life? What if they never got the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

It sais in the Bible that everyone gets the chance. It's not like the world is deprived of Bibles?..I can understand it if they were on their way to being baptised and got hit by a truck - but if they wanted to be baptised, they would have been.

 

[Bishka]

the idea of forced conversion (however fictional the situation may seem to me and however well-meaning the intentions of those who believe)

The funny thing is, you still don't understand. It's not a 'forced conversion'. The LDS Church believes they can reject it or accept it.

 

[Bishka]

It sais in the Bible that everyone gets the chance.

What about the 5-year old girl in pre-Christ Mongolia? What about the tribes Africa that have never heard it? I can surely tell you there are many people that have never heard the message of Christ.

 

[Bishka]

Elder

An office of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Also used as a title for male missionaries or general authorities of the Church. Elders have authority to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and to bestow priesthood blessings.

Link here

 

[Vjkingjr]

Elders is not to denote an old age as many people think. It's meant to denote a calling in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. An Elder can be 19 or 80 -- it's not a matter of age, just a matter of calling.

Maquarie Dictionary: Elder - older; senior. A person who is older then oneself. One of the older and more influential men of a tribe or community.

I dont think 20 year olds fit into that catogory. Unless ofcourse they are older than me.