Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[Bishka]

Hardly what i would call humble.

How is it not humble? They give up two years of their lives, pay for it all themselves just to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Elder just denotes that it is a calling that they have taken up. Is that a problem?

 

[Bishka]

Doesn't make much sense - and isn't Biblical.

We believe in more then just the Bible, so you cannot hold us to just "Bible-only". You can hold us to Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price only. :yes:

 

[Vjkingjr]

Meaning? :sarcastic

Meaning there is no afterlife. Jesus comes back..sets up his Kingdom and we are all judged worthy or unworthy. Simple.

Proverbs 3:19 "In the swear of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN unto the ground: for out of it wast thou TAKEN: for dust YOU ARE, and unto dust YOU WILL RETURN."

=]

 

[Runt]

How do you know they didn't want to be baptized in life? What if they never got the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Then I think God failed miserably to deliver the message to those who needed tellin'.

If folks need baptism to get into Heaven and God is all-loving and all knowing, then God should have made a point, at least once, of making His message known to the person who died without baptism. Otherwise, it's not the soul's fault he remained in ignorance, it's God's, and God should address the problem directly himself, in Heaven, with the soul, rather than indirectly through this ridiculous process of baptism-by-proxy.

 

[Vjkingjr]

Ok so its Biblical in your B.O.M but not in the Bible..correct. Just the same as Polygamy isnt accepted in the Bible..but is okay in the B.O.M. So without the B.O.M what do you guys have?..the B.O.M is the foundation of your church..not the BIble.

 

[madhatter85]

Then I think God failed miserably to deliver the message to those who needed tellin'.

If folks need baptism to get into Heaven and God is all-loving and all knowing, then God should have made a point, at least once, of making His message known to the person who died without baptism. Otherwise, it's not the soul's fault he remained in ignorance, it's God's, and God should address the problem directly himself, in Heaven, with the soul, rather than indirectly through this ridiculous process of baptism-by-proxy.

He tried, and every time there was an apostasy because of the wickeness of mankind, why should god give words when people don't listen? when he sent christ here, they rejected him. when he sent prophets they were rejected. and in short it made god angry and he masically gave us the silent treatment untill we were ready to listen.

 

[lunamoth]

Why is it that Jesus could not perform the baptism in heaven if the soul in prison so wished? I would think that He would have the authority, and being right there if would be quite handy and a lot more fail-safe than depending upon LDS ancestors finding them.

 

[madhatter85]

Ok so its Biblical in your B.O.M but not in the Bible..correct. Just the same as Polygamy isnt accepted in the Bible..but is okay in the B.O.M. So without the B.O.M what do you guys have?..the B.O.M is the foundation of your church..not the BIble.

The BoM is the Keystone to our church, not the foundation, the foundation is christ's gospel.

 

[rocka21]

Then I think God failed miserably to deliver the message to those who needed tellin'.

If folks need baptism to get into Heaven and God is all-loving and all knowing, then God should have made a point, at least once, of making His message known to the person who died without baptism. Otherwise, it's not the soul's fault he remained in ignorance, it's God's, and God should address the problem directly himself, in Heaven, with the soul, rather than indirectly through this ridiculous process of baptism-by-proxy.

exactly!( see the thief on the cross.) ( see book of acts, ethiopian)

i personally believe in the doctrine of baptisms ( see hebrew 6)

Baptised into the family of God( born again) - confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.
Baptised in water- outward sign of the above.( type of death , burial, and resurection)
Baptised in the Holy Ghost- Filled with the Spirit of God with evidence of tounges.

just think of some man in the desert that is a believer, he can't find water and then drops dead. he gets to heaven and God says " sorry, but you didn't dunk!"

 

[madhatter85]

Why is it that Jesus could not perform the baptism in heaven if the soul in prison so wished? I would think that He would have the authority, and being right there if would be quite handy and a lot more fail-safe than depending upon LDS ancestors finding them.

to answer that you have to go back to our basic beliefs that everyone wil be resurrected to become like god is now, he has perfect body, free of problems and defects, and in order for us to become like him that requires baptism in the flesh before resurrection. and for all those who didn't have the opportunity to learn christ's gospel, they are being taught in "spirit prison" it says in the bible christ went to the prison after he died to teach them himself. but to be baptised they need a phisical body, and hence why we perfom it by proxy.

your comment about going to the earth and becoming dust is of course exactly how it is, our bodies go back to the earth from whence they came. it makes no mention of your spirit (if you believe in spirits) dying and becomign dust, only your temporal imperfect body.

 

[Vjkingjr]

So without the B.O.M what would you have? The Book of Bible? If there was no B.O.M around the LSD church would not be in existence..therefore it is the foundation of your church.

 

[Runt]

The funny thing is, you still don't understand. It's not a 'forced conversion'. The LDS Church believes they can reject it or accept it.

Sure, if Jesus, Mary, Joseph and a choir of angels show up, tell the soul "Hey, if you'd like, we'll have someone down on earth baptize you by proxy!" and the soul wants it, then sure, it's not a forced conversion. But if the soul responds "No thanks", the baptism by proxy still occurs down on earth because you have no way of knowing the soul's response! Thus, you're going against the will of the soul and baptizing him anyway DESPITE his rejection. He may not go to Heaven despite your baptism because he hasn't accepted the baptism in his heart, but YOU still forced him to convert in principle. It's exactly the same as Muslims forcing captives to convert. The captive goes through the motions of the ritual whether they want to be Muslim or not, because they have no choice. They may have the option to not accept Allah in their hearts, but they still were thrust through a forced conversion process. That's wrong.

 

[madhatter85]

So without the B.O.M what would you have? The Book of Bible? If there was no B.O.M around the LSD church would not be in existence..therefore it is the foundation of your church.

but Alas, the BoM exists...... we do not live in fantasy land or "What ifs" we live in the world where the boM does exist and we use it in conjunction with everythign else to help us better unsderstand the trutfulness of the gospel of jesus christ

(assuming again that you are a christian and believe in such things as the bible and christ)

 

[Vjkingjr]

Exactly so then why do you believe in going to an kingdom in heaven? The Bible by no means mentions this..it is a LDS doctorine. Read Eph 4:5 (one baptism), Acts 22:16. (for your sins) 1Cor 13:8-13 (time of prophets and revelation is over)

 

[Runt]

He tried, and every time there was an apostasy because of the wickeness of mankind, why should god give words when people don't listen? when he sent christ here, they rejected him. when he sent prophets they were rejected. and in short it made god angry and he masically gave us the silent treatment untill we were ready to listen.

:biglaugh:

You're right, God should just stop "giving words". Obviously there's no point in having Bibles, churches or missionaries, because according to you the omniscient, omnipotent God failed dismally to deliver his message to humanity and is now off sulking in some corner of Heaven.

If this is the case---and I seriously can't believe you just suggested it---then why bother with things like baptism? GOD HIMSELF is apparently unable to get past our wickedness, so baptism by proxy---heck, baptism of any kind---is kind of pointless...

 

[Vjkingjr]

but Alas, the BoM exists...... we do not live in fantasy land or "What ifs" we live in the world where the boM does exist and we use it in conjunction with everythign else to help us better unsderstand the trutfulness of the gospel of jesus christ

(assuming again that you are a christian and believe in such things as the bible and christ)

So it is then the foundation of your church.

Yes..maybe you should have a look at what the Christadelphians believe..we do have alot in common e.g Jesus is not God, there is no trinity, the 2nd coming etc.

=]

 

[Vjkingjr]

He tried, and every time there was an apostasy because of the wickeness of mankind, why should god give words when people don't listen? when he sent christ here, they rejected him. when he sent prophets they were rejected. and in short it made god angry and he masically gave us the silent treatment untill we were ready to listen.

That is ofcourse if you believe that the Nephites did migrate America. Take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o

 

[madhatter85]

No where in the Bible does it even talk about baptising the dead. The problem with baptising for the dead, iv my view - is that the bible doesn't teach the doctorine of your soul drifiting to heaven, or hell..even if it did, then there would be no need for Christs second coming - the world would end and we would all float off to heaven. I mean, if you weren't a believer of God or the LDS church and your in heaven and all of a sudden some angel comes to you and sais .."well because someone has been baptised in your name, you can choose weather you want to go to Heaven or go to Hell" its not like your going to say i would prefer to go to hell and be in everlasting torment..but thanks anyway - OFCOURSE your going to want to go to heaven.

We believe that you will have the same notions, the same personality you have here when you depart this earth for the afterlife. some people even though the truth is staring them in the face that it's plain english refuse to still believe it. and that is thier right. we believe that nothing can take away our free agency or right to choose.

As for little children, we belive they will go straight to the celestial kingdom because they are not accountable for thier sins.

The three kingdoms of glory are all mentioned in the bible.

We also believe that anyone who doesn't know the truth, won't go to "Hell" because peopel are judged accroding to thier own knowledge and works.

 

[madhatter85]

So it is then the foundation of your church.

Yes..maybe you should have a look at what the Christadelphians believe..we do have alot in common e.g Jesus is not God, there is no trinity, the 2nd coming etc.

=]

I appreciate your offer but i gracefully decline, the word is too long and i would feel silly sayign it outloud,

/off topic-in a jokign sense it reminds me of pedophilia for some reason, probably just the pronunciation or whatnot, and there's too much of that in the catholic church right now anwyays. /end off topic

 

[madhatter85]

Sure, if Jesus, Mary, Joseph and a choir of angels show up, tell the soul "Hey, if you'd like, we'll have someone down on earth baptize you by proxy!" and the soul wants it, then sure, it's not a forced conversion. But if the soul responds "No thanks", the baptism by proxy still occurs down on earth because you have no way of knowing the soul's response! Thus, you're going against the will of the soul and baptizing him anyway DESPITE his rejection. He may not go to Heaven despite your baptism because he hasn't accepted the baptism in his heart, but YOU still forced him to convert in principle. It's exactly the same as Muslims forcing captives to convert. The captive goes through the motions of the ritual whether they want to be Muslim or not, because they have no choice. They may have the option to not accept Allah in their hearts, but they still were thrust through a forced conversion process. That's wrong.

we don't trap souls, we don''t do that at all, it's in no way a conversion to our faith.