Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[Vjkingjr]

We believe that you will have the same notions, the same personality you have here when you depart this earth for the afterlife. some people even though the truth is staring them in the face that it's plain english refuse to still believe it. and that is thier right. we believe that nothing can take away our free agency or right to choose.

As for little children, we belive they will go straight to the celestial kingdom because they are not accountable for thier sins.

The three kingdoms of glory are all mentioned in the bible.

We also believe that anyone who doesn't know the truth, won't go to "Hell" because peopel are judged accroding to thier own knowledge and works.

But ofcourse who wants to go to Hell..when heaven is staring you right in the face.

Terrestrial and celestial bodies in the NT do not refer to the physical bodies of men or afterlife (1 Cor. 15:35-49).

Paul mentioned the "third heaven" but it was a reference to heaven itself (2 Cor. 12:1, 2).
1. First heaven: atmosphere.
2. Second heaven: space.​

3. Third heaven: God’s dwelling place.

 

[Vjkingjr]

I appreciate your offer but i gracefully decline, the word is too long and i would feel silly sayign it outloud,

/off topic-in a jokign sense it reminds me of pedophilia for some reason, probably just the pronunciation or whatnot, and there's too much of that in the catholic church right now anwyays. /end off topic

Cant say you wern't given the chance

 

[madhatter85]

But ofcourse who wants to go to Hell..when heaven is staring you right in the face.

okay, so if you're makign this comment you accept that we are allowing them an opportunity to go to heaven. okay.

So wouldn't it suck that if it was staring at you in the face but nobody down on earth was baptising you or knew you existed to baptise you to allow you to go there?

my point be proven, it's just a gift we give to our anscestors to either accept or reject. we in no way force thier hands or bind them. that would go against the principle of free-agency.

someone buys you a bike, gives it to you, you have a choice to either return it or keep it. just because someone gave you the bike didn't take away any choice of yours to ride it or keep it. it was the gifter's choice to give you it because they care for you.

giving someone a gift does not bind them or control them or force them. that is the principle of the matter.


/off topic. as for your "foundation" comment you have yet to provide a true rebuttle, you re-stated something you said previous after i rebuked your comment. Even so, IF the foundation of our religion is the BoM, it still exists and it will never go away. it is plain and simple to read, easy to understand and figure out. /end off topic

 

[Bishka]

So without the B.O.M what would you have? The Book of Bible? If there was no B.O.M around the LSD church would not be in existence..therefore it is the foundation of your church.

That's right, the LSD Church would not exist.

Actually it is a keystone of the Church, not the foundation. Please stick to your beliefs and we'll all stick to ours. You obviously do not have a very good grasp on the theology of what we believe (not matter how many 'Mormon' friends you have or how many times you've been to church with them). If you don't believe the theology you'll always find problems with it. You stick to your Christdelphian and we'll stick to ours, okay?

 

[madhatter85]

Terrestrial and celestial bodies in the NT do not refer to the physical bodies of men or afterlife (1 Cor. 15:35-49).

Paul mentioned the "third heaven" but it was a reference to heaven itself (2 Cor. 12:1, 2).
1. First heaven: atmosphere.
2. Second heaven: space. ​

3. Third heaven: God’s dwelling place.

Read those versus again, paul is talkign about a vision he had regarding "Kingdoms of Glory." and he goes on to explain the Celestial and the Terrestrial, and then a 3rd kingdom in 2nd epistle, the kingdom of man. he never ever mentions Atmosphere or space, he mentions how he was caught up into the dwelling place of god (he wasn't sure if he had left hsi body, or if he was in the flesh still), and then in 2nd corinthians shown things regarding the 3rd kingdom, the one where someone he knew of was there. the man he knew had listened to things that were not to bo spoken which is why he hended up there.

We believe:
the Celestial kingdom, which is like unto the brightness of the Sun (god's dwelling place)
The Terrestrial Kingdom Which brightness is like unto the Moon (where Christ will reign)
And the Telestial kingdom which brighteness is like unto the stars (where the Holy Ghost will Reign)

 

[Vjkingjr]

So why is it up to your anscestors to baptise you?

Well think about it! Without the BoM what have you got?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o&mode=related&search=
watch it.

 

[Vjkingjr]

That's right, the LSD Church would not exist.

Actually it is a keystone of the Church, not the foundation. Please stick to your beliefs and we'll all stick to ours. You obviously do not have a very good grasp on the theology of what we believe (not matter how many 'Mormon' friends you have or how many times you've been to church with them). If you don't believe the theology you'll always find problems with it. You stick to your Christdelphian and we'll stick to ours, okay?

Well considering the BoM has no external sources validating a single place, a single person or a single event - where as the Bible does. I'll stick to mine

 

[Bishka]

So why is it up to your anscestors to baptise you

It's not, it's up to us to baptize them because we believe in eternal families (for another thread if you would like to discuss that)

Well think about it!

Think about what?

Without the BoM what have you got?!

Jesus Christ -- yet with the Book of Mormon we have Him too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o&mode=related&search=
watch it.

Why? Do you think this will dissuade anyone from the LDS Church if they truly believe in it? Let's say someone found "evidence" that Jesus never existed, would you stop believing in Jesus because of that?

 

[Bishka]

Well considering the BoM has no external sources validating a single place, a single person or a single event - where as the Bible does. I'll stick to mine

FAIR

Enjoy. You are oblivious to the fact that we get this all the time. Do you really think that your statements against the LDS Church are new and original?

 

[madhatter85]

So why is it up to your anscestors to baptise you?

Well think about it! Without the BoM what have you got?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o&mode=related&search=
watch it.

As we have already agreed on, Without the book of mormon, our church would not exist.
But, it does exist, and so does our church, stop runnign in circles in "what if" land please.

And i don't understand the question you ask, we don't have our ancestors baptise us...

 

[Vjkingjr]

1. It is assumed that the man Paul knew died; the passage does not say so. Until it is proven that he did die, there is no warrant for the sweeping generalization that the souls of any righteous dead persons go to heaven.
2. It is assumed that to be in the third heaven is to be "with the Lord". Until it is proven that to be in the third heaven is to be with the Lord, there is no warrant for asserting that the man Paul knew, or any, go "to be with their Lord" at the instant of death.

"Whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth." (vs. 2,3). Various interpretations of these words have been proposed. The following one has the advantage of fitting the context: Paul did not know for certain whether he was transported to participate objectively in the visions and revelations, as did Daniel (Dan. 10), or whether his experience was subjective, as was Peter's vision of the sheet let down from heaven. (Acts 10:10,11,17). Later, when Peter was led out of prison by an angel he "wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision." (Acts 12:9). Peter thought his objective experience might only be subjective - that what was actually occurring might only be transpiring in his mind. When Peter was "come to himself, he said, Now I know for a surety . . ." (Acts 12:11). Similarly, Paul was unable to know for certain whether he was in the body (actually participating) or out of the body (whether the events transpired only in a vision in the mind).

Since Paul says that the man he knew was caught away to the third heaven (vs. 2) and caught away to paradise (vs. 4) it can be inferred that the two locations are synonymous. Since it is known that paradise refers either to the Garden of Eden or to paradise-like conditions on the earth, by implication it is also known that the third heaven refers to the same thing. The word "heavens" is used figuratively elsewhere in Scripture. See 2 Pet. 3:13 cf. Isa. 65:17.

=]

 

[rocka21]

Why? Do you think this will dissuade anyone from the LDS Church if they truly believe in it? Let's say someone found "evidence" that Jesus never existed, would you stop believing in Jesus because of that?

yes, if they had evidence, but he did exsit.

i think everyone should look at evidence nomatter what they believe.

 

[Vjkingjr]

Well yes that is true there is the BoM and you have a church.

Let me refraise. Why is it up to your relatives to baptise you?

Im off to bed now night night

 

[Vjkingjr]

yes, if they had evidence, but he did exsit.

i think everyone should look at evidence nomatter what they believe.

I agree. I accept the truth, weather i like what i found, or not. Thats why i go along to different churches aswell

 

[Bishka]

yes, if they had evidence, but he did exsit.

Exactly.

You wouldn't.

And we believe that the Book of Mormon is real and those people existed. More science and archeology is coming day by day. So your no proof does not mean that they never existed.

 

[Bishka]

Let me refraise. Why is it up to your relatives to baptise you?

It's not. I'm baptized.

 

[Bishka]

1. It is assumed that the man Paul knew died; the passage does not say so. Until it is proven that he did die, there is no warrant for the sweeping generalization that the souls of any righteous dead persons go to heaven.
2. It is assumed that to be in the third heaven is to be "with the Lord". Until it is proven that to be in the third heaven is to be with the Lord, there is no warrant for asserting that the man Paul knew, or any, go "to be with their Lord" at the instant of death.

"Whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth." (vs. 2,3). Various interpretations of these words have been proposed. The following one has the advantage of fitting the context: Paul did not know for certain whether he was transported to participate objectively in the visions and revelations, as did Daniel (Dan. 10), or whether his experience was subjective, as was Peter's vision of the sheet let down from heaven. (Acts 10:10,11,17). Later, when Peter was led out of prison by an angel he "wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision." (Acts 12:9). Peter thought his objective experience might only be subjective - that what was actually occurring might only be transpiring in his mind. When Peter was "come to himself, he said, Now I know for a surety . . ." (Acts 12:11). Similarly, Paul was unable to know for certain whether he was in the body (actually participating) or out of the body (whether the events transpired only in a vision in the mind).

Since Paul says that the man he knew was caught away to the third heaven (vs. 2) and caught away to paradise (vs. 4) it can be inferred that the two locations are synonymous. Since it is known that paradise refers either to the Garden of Eden or to paradise-like conditions on the earth, by implication it is also known that the third heaven refers to the same thing. The word "heavens" is used figuratively elsewhere in Scripture. See 2 Pet. 3:13 cf. Isa. 65:17.

=]

Yet this thread is not about that, it's about whether baptism for the dead bothers you or not.

 

[Vjkingjr]

It's not, it's up to us to baptize them because we believe in eternal families (for another thread if you would like to discuss that)

There are no family relationships in the afterlife (Matt. 22:23-33).


Think about what?

What your religion is based on without the BoM


Jesus Christ -- yet with the Book of Mormon we have Him too.

In a slightly different way


Why? Do you think this will dissuade anyone from the LDS Church if they truly believe in it? Let's say someone found "evidence" that Jesus never existed, would you stop believing in Jesus because of that?

Well people have, but there is proof that he did If there was no evidence of Jesus existing and external sources of battles and events and people - most likely not. But we'r just 'if' ing again.

 

[madhatter85]

yes, if they had evidence, but he did exsit.

i think everyone should look at evidence nomatter what they believe.

/offtopic
A person i can respect is a person of reason. people choose wether or not to believe evidence or not. Scientests say the world is billions of years old, and there is archeological proof of that.

i think of it like this, you took apart a 100 year old wood shed, and built another shed out of it (including the nails ect..). the shed you built is only a few days old, but if your archeology expert came along and tested the shed, he would say that the shed was a hundred years old.

Who's to say that the materials used to create the earth and the galaxy and the universe isn't billions of years old?

My point is that science cannot alone prove or disprove anything, just as Theology cant-
Back to topic - I love beign able to do baptisms for the dead because i get an incredible feeling doing it.

 

[Vjkingjr]

Exactly.

You wouldn't.

And we believe that the Book of Mormon is real and those people existed. More science and archeology is coming day by day. So your no proof does not mean that they never existed.

Yes thats what you like to believe. But its not a case of what you would like to believe - the truth is what matters. Yes would you like to show me some? Well you wouldn't know weather its proof or not if you haven't watched it