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Why does God care about Homosexuality?

madhatter85

Transhumanist
this is a never ending cycle.

there are arguments for both sides of this case. and this is such a predominant issue in society with bigotry everywhere that homosexual people are extremely defensive about it. The thread was why does God care about homosexuality. someone shows them WHY God cares about it, and the homosexuals refute that there is no god, or other things of that nature. you can't debate apples and oranges. it doesn't work. you can't debate the ideas of God to an atheist who doesn't believe in God. and you can't debate the ideals of something that someone finds no relevant value or information in.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
why do some keep saying that homosexuality is a BIOLOGICAL AND GENETIC FACT?!!!

these results are not " PROVEN" yet , so why are you acting like they are?


and please don't give me some googled links, because i can pull just as many to refute them.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
why do some keep saying that homosexuality is a BIOLOGICAL AND GENETIC FACT?!!!

these results are not " PROVEN" yet , so why are you acting like they are?


and please don't give me some googled links, because i can pull just as many to refute them.

Well there's certainly far more evidence to support the claim that homosexuality is biological/genetic than there is for the claim that it is a choice. Not to mention that you ask a homosexual how they became that way and they'll say they were born that way and flat out deny that it was a choice. If after all this you still doubt that homosexuals had no choice in the matter then ask yourself this, did you choose to be heterosexual(as I'm assuming you are)?
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
this is a never ending cycle.

there are arguments for both sides of this case. and this is such a predominant issue in society with bigotry everywhere that homosexual people are extremely defensive about it. The thread was why does God care about homosexuality. someone shows them WHY God cares about it, and the homosexuals refute that there is no god, or other things of that nature. you can't debate apples and oranges. it doesn't work. you can't debate the ideas of God to an atheist who doesn't believe in God. and you can't debate the ideals of something that someone finds no relevant value or information in.

I'll madhatter85 this point.

The OP asked a question and he answered it. When I reread through the first primarily pointless ten pages of the thread and saw your first response, you did answer the OP.

I missed it when I said other Christians did not hold that view. My point was irrelevant.

It should also be noted that believing in a God who declares homosexuality to be a sin lacks no more logical basis than believing in The Green Man, reincarnation or the notion that "God is love".

Someone asked a theological question and it was answered.

I don't agree with it but hey, this is not a political or biological question.
 

Smoke

Done here.
why do some keep saying that homosexuality is a BIOLOGICAL AND GENETIC FACT?!!!

these results are not " PROVEN" yet , so why are you acting like they are?
All the evidence we have indicates that there is some genetic component to human sexuality. Certainly, I've never heard an anti-gay activist claim that there is no genetic component to heterosexuality. It doesn't take a genius to see that if there is ever any genetic component to sexuality, there are bound to be genetic variations.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
If homosexuality is a biological and genetic fact, by Darwin's theory of natural selection, then it's a recessive gene that must die out one way or the other. Why? Because you can't procreate naturally, and therefore can't survive.

The Atheistic liberals who spew crap about it being genetic forget that little fact.
 

Smoke

Done here.
If homosexuality is a biological and genetic fact, by Darwin's theory of natural selection, then it's a recessive gene that must die out one way or the other. Why? Because you can't procreate naturally, and therefore can't survive.

The Atheistic liberals who spew crap about it being genetic forget that little fact.
No, we didn't forget -- it's just that you're wrong about the facts. Homosexuals can and often do reproduce, more often than not in the old-fashioned way. Furthermore, there's no reason recessive genes -- the genes that cause blond hair and blue eyes, for instance -- necessarily have to die out. Nor is anybody claiming that sexuality is determined by a single gene. Also, it's quite likely -- in fact, it's obvious -- that we have evolved to have a substantial minority of our species be homosexual, and it's likely that homosexuality has some value for the survival of genes.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
this is a never ending cycle.

there are arguments for both sides of this case. and this is such a predominant issue in society with bigotry everywhere that homosexual people are extremely defensive about it. The thread was why does God care about homosexuality. someone shows them WHY God cares about it, and the homosexuals refute that there is no god, or other things of that nature. you can't debate apples and oranges. it doesn't work. you can't debate the ideas of God to an atheist who doesn't believe in God. and you can't debate the ideals of something that someone finds no relevant value or information in.

I must have missed the post where someone explained why God would care. It's a mystery to me.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
Luke I'm beggining to think you've put me on your ignore list though I can't imagine why. This is the third time I've asked for your input on a post of mine and you have yet to respond.

Hey Luke are you going to respond to my post or not. I specifically asked you to respond to this as I would like to hear your input.

Quote:
The thing is if you study the etimology of the word "Abomination" you find that at the time it simply meant "Taboo". Or in other words meant that it wasn't really wrong just something that one who is a member of the biblical religions should not partake in. only in the past few hundred years has the word slowly come to mean what it means today. For that matter, back then the word "sin" simply meant "mistake". So neither abomination nor sin had the same connotation back then as they do now. And the same can be said for numerous other words in the bible. The best known example of this definition change is the word "knew". In the bible it means to have sex. But these days it is rarely used in a sexual conotation. If the word "knew" can have it's definition changed so drastically from biblical times to present then it logically follows that other words could have done the same. Which is exactly what happened. In order to understand what the bible is saying you should really look at it in the context of the time when it was written. It helps to avoid such confusion.
Oh, and conservatives are guilty of just as many crimes as liberals. The conservative religious right in particular have been trying to make their values into law for some time now. The thing is this is a secular nation and thus any laws made, while they may have commonalities with religions are not to be made because of religion. And it is only through religious reasons that Homosexuality can be considered wrong. Many believe that homosexuality is wrong and as a result try and deny them the ability to marry and other basic rights same as we did to negroes just 50 years ago.(I'm not accusing you of being apart of this). The way I see it the bible's rules are meant for those who follow biblical religions(like Christianity). Thus if you are say Christian and Christian doctrine says that homosexuality is wrong(debatable) then it simply means that you yourself are not to partake in it. But why should one who is not Christian or does not follow the bible be held accountable for the laws and mandates of Christianity and/or the bible? I eagerly await your reply:D

Will you reply this time Luke or will you continue to ignore me?

Anyone else who wishes to comment on this is welcome to. I am mostly interested in hearing what other people have to say about the etimology of the words "abomination" and "sin" as I mentioned above.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
Luke I'm beggining to think you've put me on your ignore list though I can't imagine why. This is the third time I've asked for your input on a post of mine and you have yet to respond.

Hey Luke are you going to respond to my post or not. I specifically asked you to respond to this as I would like to hear your input.

Will you reply this time Luke or will you continue to ignore me?

I wasn't ignoring you. I'm annoying too many people at once, and am losing track. I'll respond in a separate post when I can.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
If you really want to walk down this path, it makes even a lesser case for lesbianism.

If you remove the writings of Paul which dominates the New Testament, it makes an even lesser argument.

The real deal is, are Gay's and lesbians being pushed away from religion because of this? I mean, we don't drive fat people away from church do we?

The same with marriage after divorce. Will God forgive these folks or burn them in hell? Forgiveness comes in here somewhere and it is not for us Christians to judge lest we be judged ourselves. I don't think anyone wants to be judged. Who am I to say who goes to heaven or not? For that matter, I believe Paul was secretly gay and hated himself for it.

That's an interesting thought. Though it certainly wouldn't surprise me. No doubt many are pushed away from religion because of what many of the followers are so against them. Indeed there is not mention whatsoever of Lesbianism in the bible unless one decides to lump lesbian with homosexual but traditionaly homosexual has been a term for males only. Something else to consider that the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages that the bible was written in didn't have a word for homosexual. So the word is an add on. True the concept could be described but where it is described it merely says something about "leaving natural relations" which could be interpreted as saying homosexuality is unnatural and sinful but could also be interpreted as saying that people were going against their nature, that homosexuals were pretending to be hetero and/or vice versa. Other passages where the word homosexual is used the original word was I believe "effiminate"(sp?) which had more to do with rape and prostitution then homosexuality. Though I believe the best translation of the word is "homosexual prostitute" but then that would imply that "heterosexual prostitution is "okay"(were it not condemned so heavily throughout the rest of the bible.) It seems to me that the only way to know for sure what the bible really says about homosexuality you would have to learn to read ancient greek and hebrew and read the bible in it's original text(before it was translated) and also take into account the time period in which it was written.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yes, I have no expertise, no knowledge of Koine Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, so have to rely on the experts. I understand that the Greek word arsenokoitai only appears in the Bible twice, so is hard to accurately translate. Here's what one source says:
What does "arsenokoitai" really mean?

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] Nobody knows for certain.
[/FONT]
"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds."
Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to homosexuals, we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the word "paiderasste." That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual behavior between males. We can conclude that he probably meant something different than people who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.
One source states that the Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek made between the 3rd and 1st century BCE) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 into a Greek word somewhat similar to "arsenokoitai." This passage referred to "male temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples.
This makes a heck of a lot more sense to me, as Yahweh is often quite concerned with prohibiting pagan religious practices, mandating monotheism, and distinguishing Jews and Christians from pagans.

Apparently until fairly recently, this word was thought to mean "masturbators" not "homosexuals." That may be in part because English did not have a word for homosexuals until pretty recently.

What is clear is that lesbianism or same-sex relations between women are nowhere prohibited. Nowhere. Not once. In the entire Bible.

That's where the divorce issue comes in, or rather, re-marriage after divorce. Here you have something that is very clearly prohibited (except for adultery), repeatedly, by Jesus himself, with no translation problems. Conservative Christians practice it regularly, vote for people who do it (Ronald Reagan comes to mind) and generally have no problem with it. You don't see them advocating for legislation to prohibit re-marriage after divorce, although their religion prohibits it.

On the other hand you have something--lesbianism--which is not prohibited at all. Anywhere. In several thousand pages, where it gets only one not very favorable mention in a story told by Paul. But bigoted hypocrites not only condemn it, but feel they're justified in denying equal marital rights to us. They certainly wouldn't vote for a lesbian. And they have no biblical justification for this whatsoever.

As far as Rick and Luke claiming that other people are trying to conjure up hypocrisy so they don't have to listen to what they say--please. I don't have to listen to what you say, because I'm not Christian. It doesn't matter to me whether you want to engage in gay sex or not. The reason I call these Christians--specifically, those who decry lesbianism while accepting remarriage after divorce--hypocrites is that they are. And for me, this exposes them as fundamentally dishonest. It has nothing to do with scripture, and everything to do with their own prejudice. As Luke said, he thinks it's "disgusting," and doesn't have enough manners to keep his opinion to himself. I think his sex life is disgusting too, but would not volunteer my personal opinion in the matter, had he not opened the door. His sex life is his business, and does not have to pass my personal taste test.

In any case, what is really disgusting to me is: prostitution, rape, sexual exploitation, child pornography, and other sexual behavior that is primarily heterosexual and almost never lesbian.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
Oh, and conservatives are guilty of just as many crimes as liberals. The conservative religious right in particular have been trying to make their values into law for some time now.

In the past; not anymore. Now is the left that is turning this country into a police state.

The thing is this is a secular nation and thus any laws made,

This is not a secular nation. It has a secular government, but the majority of the people are, and always have been, Christian. It was the Christians who condescended to accept the secular government laid down by the founding fathers.

while they may have commonalities with religions are not to be made because of religion.

And it is only through religious reasons that Homosexuality can be considered wrong.

True, but it’s only religious people who can consider it normal.

Many believe that homosexuality is wrong and as a result try and deny them the ability to marry and other basic rights same as we did to negroes just 50 years ago.(I'm not accusing you of being apart of this).


I wouldn’t deny them basic rights. I would deny them marriage because that isn’t their right: marriage is between a man and a woman. Period. WE have a right to keep it so. But I am for a special civil union for homosexuals –as long as they don’t call it marriage. I’ve as post in another thread on the subject.


The way I see it the bible's rules are meant for those who follow biblical religions(like Christianity). Thus if you are say Christian and Christian doctrine says that homosexuality is wrong(debatable) then it simply means that you yourself are not to partake in it. But why should one who is not Christian or does not follow the bible be held accountable for the laws and mandates of Christianity and/or the bible? I eagerly await your reply



I 100% agree. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the way Christians are supposed to live are the way Christians are supposed to live; not anyone else. It is our job to lead you to the Lord, and let Him deal with the rest.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
In the past; not anymore. Now is the left that is turning this country into a police state.


"police state"? could you explain this a bit more?

This is not a secular nation. It has a secular government, but the majority of the people are, and always have been, Christian. It was the Christians who condescended to accept the secular government laid down by the founding fathers.


Good point though I think the founding fathers were either protestants or puritans rather than Christians. Still you admit that the government is secular. If a government is secular then it should not make any laws for religious reasons alone. Do you have any reason, other than religious, to oppose same sex marriage and/or homosexuality?



True, but it’s only religious people who can consider it normal.


Only religious people consider homosexuality normal? Is that what your saying? Well that is not the case nonreligious also view it as completely natural


I wouldn’t deny them basic rights. I would deny them marriage because that isn’t their right: marriage is between a man and a woman. Period. WE have a right to keep it so. But I am for a special civil union for homosexuals –as long as they don’t call it marriage. I’ve as post in another thread on the subject.


Marriage has changed much over the thousands of years it has been around why not the whole man and woman part? Would you be in favor of giving civil unions all of the rights that are given to marriage? Why or why not? Do you have a reason, other than religious, to oppose same sex marriage or activity? Do you have any reason, other than religious, to make a distinction between marriage and civil union?

I 100% agree. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the way Christians are supposed to live are the way Christians are supposed to live; not anyone else. It is our job to lead you to the Lord, and let Him deal with the rest.

I appreciate and respect that However this also brings up a whole other slew of questions that have no place in this particular thread(i.e. Which "Lord"? how do you know he/she/it is THE lord?, etc.)

Are you going to reply to the other half of my post? The bit about etymology and the changing of word definitions?
 
frg001 said:
Much as I know what you're trying to say, you cannot equate an action that is a choice - 'eating pork' , to a biological/genetic fact of birth - 'homosexuality'
I compared them, I did not equate them.

Midnight Blue said:
Three questions:
  • Are the people you defend advocating full equality under the law for homosexuals?
I didn't set out to defend anyone so much as to make a distinction between a greater and a lesser evil. But in the spirit of not dodging the question....

Yes. I cannot defend a position that is against the full legal and social equality of homosexuals.

  • If I say that black people are dirty, shiftless, stupid, and physically repulsive, and, but I believe in treating them similarly under the law, for instance maybe allowing them to enter into civil unions but not into marriages, am I a bigot?
Yes (although technically a better term in this case would be 'racist').

To anticipate your next question, my answer would be the same if you replaced the word 'black' with 'homosexual'.

  • If, in accordance with the clear teaching of the Bible, I believe that Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons, if I am politically opposed to granting people of Cretan descent full equality under the law because of the danger their morality poses to our culture and our society, but I declare that I'm willing to tolerate Cretans as part of our society, and wish them no harm as long as they know their place, am I a bigot?
Yes, of course (though again 'racist' would be a better term here). Same answer if you replaced 'Cretan' with 'homosexual'.

A note on the word 'bigot':

dictionary.com said:
big·ot
premium.gif
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/ˈbɪg
thinsp.png
ət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uh
thinsp.png
t] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Thus, even someone who has a factually incorrect or demeaning view of a group of people is not necessarily a 'bigot', as long as he/she is not 'utterly intolerant' of different opinions. Of course, it is often the case that people with factually incorrect or demeaning views of groups of people are bigots.

Autodidact said:
I agree. That's why Luke supports gay marriage. He's all for equal rights for gay people.
I could be mistaken, but I thought Luke said that he supports the legal equailty of homosexuals. If he doesn't agree with that, then the point I was trying to make in my previous post does not apply to him.

For the sake of argument, let's say that someone (it doesn't have to be Luke) doesn't support gay marriage. This person thinks, however, that this does not constitute legal discrimination. The person who thinks this way is mistaken, to be sure: disallowing gay marriage is, in fact, legal discrimination.

But such a person does not necessarily hate homosexuals, and it is a waste of time to accuse them of this and have them defend themselves. Unfortunately, the anti-gay opposition is not composed only of hate-filled bigots, just as suicide bombers are not necessarily hate-filled psychopaths. Some of them are simply ignorant of facts or mistaken in their reasoning. Patient, open discourse is the ideal way to engage this particular brand of anti-gay-rights people.

Of course, I can only sympathize with the righteous outrage and indignation that comes from those who are denied the basic human right of marriage.
 

McBell

Unbound
In the past; not anymore. Now is the left that is turning this country into a police state.

And the right is trying to make it a theocracy.

I wouldn’t deny them basic rights. I would deny them marriage because that isn’t their right: marriage is between a man and a woman. Period. WE have a right to keep it so. But I am for a special civil union for homosexuals –as long as they don’t call it marriage. I’ve as post in another thread on the subject.

please present a legitimate legal reason to ban same sex marriage.
The fact is that marriage is not some religiously owned monopoly.
Marriage is a legal contract, plan and simple.
All the fluff,window dressing, importance, and sanctity that the various religions attach to it are just that, attachments.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I compared them, I did not equate them.

I didn't set out to defend anyone so much as to make a distinction between a greater and a lesser evil. But in the spirit of not dodging the question....

Yes. I cannot defend a position that is against the full legal and social equality of homosexuals.

Yes (although technically a better term in this case would be 'racist').

To anticipate your next question, my answer would be the same if you replaced the word 'black' with 'homosexual'.

Yes, of course (though again 'racist' would be a better term here). Same answer if you replaced 'Cretan' with 'homosexual'.

A note on the word 'bigot':

Thus, even someone who has a factually incorrect or demeaning view of a group of people is not necessarily a 'bigot', as long as he/she is not 'utterly intolerant' of different opinions. Of course, it is often the case that people with factually incorrect or demeaning views of groups of people are bigots.

I could be mistaken, but I thought Luke said that he supports the legal equailty of homosexuals. If he doesn't agree with that, then the point I was trying to make in my previous post does not apply to him.

For the sake of argument, let's say that someone (it doesn't have to be Luke) doesn't support gay marriage. This person thinks, however, that this does not constitute legal discrimination. The person who thinks this way is mistaken, to be sure: disallowing gay marriage is, in fact, legal discrimination.

But such a person does not necessarily hate homosexuals, and it is a waste of time to accuse them of this and have them defend themselves. Unfortunately, the anti-gay opposition is not composed only of hate-filled bigots, just as suicide bombers are not necessarily hate-filled psychopaths. Some of them are simply ignorant of facts or mistaken in their reasoning. Patient, open discourse is the ideal way to engage this particular brand of anti-gay-rights people.

Of course, I can only sympathize with the righteous outrage and indignation that comes from those who are denied the basic human right of marriage.

I agree with Spinks, here. I think it is mistaken to assume that all people who oppose equal rights for homosexuals are bigots. Many are, but not all.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
I agree with Spinks, here. I think it is mistaken to assume that all people who oppose equal rights for homosexuals are bigots. Many are, but not all.

i agree as well... however when most of those people are also describing you specifically with words like abomination and unnatural for simply not denying who you truly are, it can be very hard to keep this in mind... i know i'm guilty of it.

which actually leads me back to one of my earlier posts that got ignored. Luke, you said that you think people should be able to believe what they want without being labeled by society. i asked you if you believe that you should also not be labeled for conducting your personal life within the reason of the law without being judged by wider society? could you spare a few minutes to quickly answer this please :)
 

.lava

Veteran Member
i disagree here because i can't separate the person and the action. if the way someone acts changes significantly, then something inside of them has changed, something in their personality, probably due to some realisation or maturity. people's actions and people's personalities are so entwined that a change in one will affect the other - so how can you judge a person's actions without judging them? i say you can't.
i can and i do.

action is like a dress, what i mean by person isnot personality, it is that human being who wears that dress. personality might change and develope by experiences but human is still same human, someone just like me.
 
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