Why does God communicate ambiguously?

[connermt]

We have hundreds of churches and even more religions, all convinced that they have the right interpretation of God's word.

So, here's where I have a problem; if God is omnipotent, omniscient and wants the message to be spread to every single one of us, why doesn't it communicate with us unambiguously? So it's crystal clear what it wants you to do and how creation happened?

I have to point out that this thread only deals with that type of god. If it's not omnipotent, omniscient or wants everyone to understand, I don't have a problem.

The simple (and likely the correct) answer is that the christian god doesn't exist as described in the bible. Thus, if it doesn't exist, it can't communicate.
That means that this god was created from the minds of humanity and, as such, is extremely imperfect.
Due to that fact, ambiguity is a perfect conduit for such a "god" to "communicate".

 

[nrg]

The simple (and likely the correct) answer is that the christian god doesn't exist as described in the bible. Thus, if it doesn't exist, it can't communicate.
That means that this god was created from the minds of humanity and, as such, is extremely imperfect.
Due to that fact, ambiguity is a perfect conduit for such a "god" to "communicate".

That's an answer that holds. It's one of the few reasons I am an atheist. But, I'm just curious to read how religious people reconcile a god that communicates in a way that breeds misunderstanding and division with omnipotence and perfection.

So far, I've got answers about defeating my ego, how I can't understand because I believe in evolution, how I'm not meant to understand because I'm not chosen to and that human diversity is a problem for an omnipotent god somehow. I'm curious as to what other explanations might pop up.

 

[Student of X]

That's an answer that holds. It's one of the few reasons I am an atheist. But, I'm just curious to read how religious people reconcile a god that communicates in a way that breeds misunderstanding and division with omnipotence and perfection.

So far, I've got answers about defeating my ego, how I can't understand because I believe in evolution, how I'm not meant to understand because I'm not chosen to and that human diversity is a problem for an omnipotent god somehow. I'm curious as to what other explanations might pop up.

Perfection?

Which conception of God would you like answers about? A perfect God or a complete God? It's one or the other. If God is perfect then he isn't whole, because he excludes imperfections. If he isn't whole then he isn't omnipotent.

If God is whole then he includes misunderstanding and division, because he also includes understanding and unity. A whole God means a God that contains all pairs of opposites. Including understanding-misunderstanding, division-unity.

So which is it, nrg? Perfect or whole?

 

[connermt]

Perfection?

Which conception of God would you like answers about? A perfect God or a complete God? It's one or the other. If God is perfect then he isn't whole, because he excludes imperfections. If he isn't whole then he isn't omnipotent.

If God is whole then he includes misunderstanding and division, because he also includes understanding and unity. A whole God means a God that contains all pairs of opposites. Including understanding-misunderstanding, division-unity.

So which is it, nrg? Perfect or whole?

Explain please
Why would a god be perfect but not whole if it includes imperfection? Seems like including imperfection would mean it's whole.

 

[connermt]

That's an answer that holds. It's one of the few reasons I am an atheist. But, I'm just curious to read how religious people reconcile a god that communicates in a way that breeds misunderstanding and division with omnipotence and perfection.

So far, I've got answers about defeating my ego, how I can't understand because I believe in evolution, how I'm not meant to understand because I'm not chosen to and that human diversity is a problem for an omnipotent god somehow. I'm curious as to what other explanations might pop up.

Those are likely the type of answers you'll get simply because the christian god has become som convaluted with all differeing definitions, excuses, claims, etc that have evolved as society (aka mankind) has evolved because that's the only way a person (people) can make sense of the senseless.

 

[Student of X]

Explain please
Why would a god be perfect but not whole if it includes imperfection? Seems like including imperfection would mean it's whole.

Yes indeed you are correct, I misspoke.

If God is whole then he is omnipotent but includes imperfection. So ambiguous communications might occur.

If God is perfect then he is not whole. He is limited. So ambiguous communications might occur.

There is no basis for expecting perfectly clear communications, even though God is real.

 

[connermt]

Yes indeed you are correct, I misspoke.

If God is whole then he is omnipotent but includes imperfection. So ambiguous communications might occur.

If God is perfect then he is not whole. He is limited. So ambiguous communications might occur.

There is no basis for expecting perfect communications, even though God is real.

Got it
Thanks for the clarification

 

[sojourner]

We have hundreds of churches and even more religions, all convinced that they have the right interpretation of God's word.

So, here's where I have a problem; if God is omnipotent, omniscient and wants the message to be spread to every single one of us, why doesn't it communicate with us unambiguously? So it's crystal clear what it wants you to do and how creation happened?

I have to point out that this thread only deals with that type of god. If it's not omnipotent, omniscient or wants everyone to understand, I don't have a problem.

I need more clarification.
What is "right interpretation?"
What is "God's word?"
What is "the message?"
What is "communicate unambiguously?"
What does God want us to do?
Why should God be concerned if we know how creation happened?
You seem to have an awful lot of presumptions here that aren't necessarily the case.

 

[waitasec]

I need more clarification.
What is "right interpretation?"
What is "God's word?"
What is "the message?"
What is "communicate unambiguously?"
What does God want us to do?
Why should God be concerned if we know how creation happened?
You seem to have an awful lot of presumptions here that aren't necessarily the case.

i think maybe these are the very things he wants to understand as to why there are so many different interpretations of what is the right one, how does one decipher god's word, message and the communication via 3rd party (the bible)
how does one know what god wants them to do and how does one know god is concerned? is it all based on a gut feeling? sure seems like it from an outsiders POV. if so, then of course gods way of communicating is ambiguous because not everyone is going to feel the same about what they think god is...

 

[nrg]

You seem to have an awful lot of presumptions here that aren't necessarily the case.

Really? Let's have a look.

I need more clarification.
What is "right interpretation?"

The one God wants us to recieve. Joseph Kony has his interpretation which tells him it's ok to kidnap children and turn them into sex slaves and soldiers while a priest in my neighbourhood runs a charity and told me that was his interpretation of God's word. I'm assuming both of them is not right.

What is "God's word?"
What is "the message?"

Whatever it is that God wants us to know is his message. His word would be what was actually communicated to us, wether it was a dream, witnessing his power or whatever other way it is you think God communicates with us, if at all.

What is "communicate unambiguously?"

Being that this is an English language forum, I made the presumption that everyone understood the meaning of the word "unambiguous".

: not ambiguous : clear, precise <unambiguous evidence>

— un·am·big·u·ous·ly adverb

See unambiguous defined for English-language learners »

Examples of UNAMBIGUOUS

1. She gave a clear, unambiguous answer.
2. <looked at his neighbor's new car with unambiguous envy>

Here's a link.

What does God want us to do?

I haven't got the slightest idea because he hasn't told me what to do, what I know of.

Why should God be concerned if we know how creation happened?

Again, I haven't got the slightest idea. It is, however, a common claim among religions that God has said how creation happened so I used it as an example of things God is claimed to have said.

I honestly don't think that I've made that many presumptions. The only one I've made is that if God wants to tell everyone something in a way that we understand, that hasn't happened. And I want to know why.

 

[sojourner]

The one God wants us to recieve.

Why do you assume that there's only one "correct" interpretation that God "wants us to receive?"

Joseph Kony has his interpretation which tells him it's ok to kidnap children and turn them into sex slaves and soldiers

Is his "interpretatin" based upon solid theology and biblical scholarship, expressed through healthy relationships within a faith community?

Whatever it is that God wants us to know is his message.

How do you know God intends to disseminate any information?
Maybe God's just looking for a relationship with us.

His word would be what was actually communicated to us, wether it was a dream, witnessing his power or whatever other way it is you think God communicates with us, if at all.

God doesn't usually speak to "us." God usually speaks to "me" and "you." And what God tells me may be completely different than what God tells you. When I talk to my wife, I communicate different things than I do when I deal with someone at work, for example.

Being that this is an English language forum, I made the presumption that everyone understood the meaning of the word "unambiguous".

Yeah, but you're assuming that it's God who's unclear. Perhaps it's our ears that need cleaning out, or our understanding that's lacking. There are always two responsible parties in any communicative exchange, you know.

I haven't got the slightest idea because he hasn't told me what to do, what I know of.

Then how are you so sure that God wants "us" to "do" anything?

It is, however, a common claim among religions that God has said how creation happened so I used it as an example of things God is claimed to have said.

The claim (at least from an orthodox Christian standpoint) is that we have a theological understanding of the creative process. There's a big difference. I don't believe that "God has said how creation happened."

I honestly don't think that I've made that many presumptions.

You're presuming that all religious people are the same as the ubiquitous religious fundies you see on this forum. We're not.

The only one I've made is that if God wants to tell everyone something in a way that we understand, that hasn't happened.

Again, I don't think God has "a message" for "everyone."

And I want to know why.

You think God should have "a message" for "everyone?"

 

[sojourner]

I don't believe God is ambiguous in the slightest in what God communicates. Our understanding of what is communicated may be fuzzy, but that's a different topic.

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't believe God is ambiguous in the slightest in what God communicates. Our understanding of what is communicated may be fuzzy, but that's a different topic.

But that is impossible; an omniscient God could trivially work around any fuzziness in our understanding.

 

[Nakosis]

But that is impossible; an omniscient God could trivially work around any fuzziness in our understanding.

Not without changing man into something man is not.

I suppose he could but then he'd have to get rid man and start over. We are who we are. Maybe allowing us to develop independently was not the best choice in your opinion but here we are such as we are. Our understanding is fuzzy sometimes. If it wasn't we wouldn't be who we are.

So yeah God could scrap the whole project at anytime and start over. Wouldn't do you any good, you wouldn't exist any more. Something else would exist other then man.

 

[sojourner]

But that is impossible; an omniscient God could trivially work around any fuzziness in our understanding.

Sure, if God created us to be puppets. Clearly that's not the case, though.

 

[PolyHedral]

Sure, if God created us to be puppets. Clearly that's not the case, though.

Lawyers and engineers do their best at it all the time. It shouldn't be that hard if you have completely infallible knowledge of psychology.

 

[connermt]

Our understanding of what is communicated may be fuzzy, but that's a different topic.

Then god created us with a flaw if we can't understand what it wants. if that's the case, surely god would fix that flaw, if it was serious about communicating with us. Looking around at all the "correct" or "right" religions, that's not the case.
So that leaves us with, as you put it, our inability to understand god. And god wants us to get to heaven. So everything we understand about said god/heaven isn't what god really wants us to understand so it's pointless and worthless.
A god that creates us, allows us to become imperfect to the extent we can't fully understand it, then punishes us for not doing what is right (aka its will) doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Oh let's just call it like it is: it doesn't just not make a lot of sense, it's a stupid flawed concept coming from a supposedly perfect entity.
Why worship it then?

 

[Student of X]

Lawyers and engineers do their best at it all the time. It shouldn't be that hard if you have completely infallible knowledge of psychology.

But our psychology is based on the illusion of individuality. We are only relatively real.

Gods psychology is based on the realization of an all-encompasing Unity that transcends the illusions of individuality, time, space.

 

[connermt]

Sure, if God created us to be puppets. Clearly that's not the case, though.

Puppets? Maybe not
But definately toys that it plays with for its amusement:
Job and Abraham come to mind immediately.

 

[sojourner]

Lawyers and engineers do their best at it all the time. It shouldn't be that hard if you have completely infallible knowledge of psychology.

"Do their best" does not imply "perfect."