Why does god need to test us?

[SigurdReginson]

SR,

Who says that challenges might suddenly stop in the afterlife?

Could God have something for us to do even though we might not bodies? Now some might believe differently than this; and believe that maybe there will be a new world, and new heavens; and they will go and be resurrected there. ( I personally do not believe this myself anymore and have accepted from Paul the resurrection of the spiritual body which is given by God through faith and raised again 1 Corinthians 15 ).

My thinking on the afterlife if there are people who are still out there in the darkness, and are lost, need help so maybe that will be a challenge trying to reach people so they can be set free from the darkness by seeing the light, and the truth about the light found in Christ Jesus, and help them come back and be set free of their bondage. Bondage is a terrible thing to be in; its restrictive and there is not freedom.

I could be wrong; anyway thank you for the polite conversation !

That's a very hopeful and positive interpretation. It reminds me a lot of the theology in Gathic Zoroastrianism where they believe that in the final fight between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, Ahura Mazda and the people who live in his paradise will come down into the darkness that Ahura Mazda dwells in and free the people that had been trapped there (those who didn't pass judgement).

As for your thoughts on challenge in the afterlife, that would be interesting. I'd be curious to see how that challenge would manifest itself.

 

[McBell]

Other aspects? Maybe. Aspects that matter in a meaningful or critical way? Doesn't seem so.

I would think that teamwork would matter...

Hmm, I suppose they are not the same thing, though tests must include challenge as an element, otherwise there really would be no point for the test to begin with. Anyone could pass it without any real effort at all, and the test would be meaningless.

Like I said, if you are using them interchangingly in this thread, that is fine.
I just want to verify it one way or another so it does not come back and bite me in the arse on page 30 or something.

Maybe instead of the baseball example, we could use a mandatory underwater basket weaving class as an example. What's the point of passing that class and getting my degree in underwater basket weaving if I will spend minimal time in my life underwater and will never weave a basket again after it's over?

The problem I see with your baseball example is the same with your underwater basket weaving example.
You chose them.
Thus I am confused why you would think "God" had anything to do with them, let alone them being some sort of test or challenge orchestrated by God....

In an afterlife where I will never know sadness and hardship again, why do I need to experience sadness and hardship in the first place?

You will need to ask someone who believes in an after life.

I mean, I can offer you up my opinion(s), but I do not know how helpful they will be.
But if you want to see for yourself, just let me know.

If it's some kind of test, it doesn't seem like it would prepare me for anything I'd actually be doing in the afterlife.

Do you believe that God would be testing you for no reason?

 

[SigurdReginson]

I would think that teamwork would matter...

That is a wonderful point.

Like I said, if you are using them interchangingly in this thread, that is fine.
I just want to verify it one way or another so it does not come back and bite me in the arse on page 30 or something.

I suppose for the purposes of this thread it makes sense, since when people point out the challenges we face in life, they often times say that "god is testing us." I'm just curious what the end goal of that test is supposed to produce, and why that test even needs to exist.

The problem I see with your baseball example is the same with your underwater basket weaving example.
You chose them.
Thus I am confused why you would think "God" had anything to do with them, let alone them being some sort of test or challenge orchestrated by God....

Very good point!

Maybe one example of a pointless test that's mandatory is one of my certifications. As a dietitian tech, one of the certifications I need to pass is a Servsafe manager's certification.

This certification tells me everything I need to know about cooking food, making sure stock is stored properly, and what signs of foodborne illness looks like. The thing tells me how to tell people how to wash their hands...

When I do my job, I'm helping people to choose food that they can eat. No potassium for renal patients. No heavy fats or salts for cardiac patients. Salty liquids for patients with free water diets.... I don't cook food, I don't store food, and I don't tell people who prepare food how to wash their hands.

I have literally not used one thing from that certification since I started my job. That said, many of our dietitian techs have lost their jobs because they couldn't pass that useless certification in the time given.

Do Dou believe that God would be testing you for no reason?

I suppose that could be a possibility. It could also be out of his control. My Servsafe certification is mandatory because I deal with food, but the only reason I have to take it is because my managers have to make me take it... It's interesting to think that someone could be making god test me in life, but I don't think many theologies allow for a boss over god.

 

[YoursTrue]

Hmmm... But why does he need that? Why does he need for us to be an extension? Surely he was complete before our creation: he is all perfect. So why would he need that of us?

The first test -- according to the Bible, with Adam & Eve -- were they sick? Born sickly? In pain? If you're going to believe in God, depends how you look at things religiously speaking.

 

[YoursTrue]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

By the way, do you feel tested? Are you tested? If so, what's the test?

 

[SigurdReginson]

By the way, do you feel tested? Are you tested? If so, what's the test?

I don't really feel tested by a tester, no. I feel there are pressures in life, and I can either respect those pressures and avoid discomfort, or I can ignore them and maybe face consequences for ignoring them. Maybe a better word than "challenge" would be "hardship," since what we endure in life can't always be conquered...

I don't see hardship as a test, though if I believed that there's a grand director who has already planned how everything goes, I suppose I'd have to.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

Before we can inherit what our Father has - He wants us to show Him what we would do when given freedom of choice.

How we act will affect what benefits/authority - if any - He will give us in His Kingdom.

 

[SigurdReginson]

The first test -- according to the Bible, with Adam & Eve -- were they sick? Born sickly? In pain? If you're going to believe in God, depends how you look at things religiously speaking.

Well, god did put the tree of knowledge of good and evil there as a test for Adam and Eve though, didn't he? Even then, I'm not quite sure what the point of that test was, either. It seems like Murphy's law in action.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

I might be answering your query indirectly, but i happen to find the comparison between norse mythology and the biblical stories rather striking and bizarre in the various congruence points. Something tells me that not too many people have really looked at it too hard.. not that I have, but it really is convincing me that some kind of unwritten indo-european religion existed, that radiated out from the middle-east westward

For example, why do both Jesus and Odin have self-sacrifices associated with the number 9? Jesus hangs for 9 hours on the cross, while Odin hangs for nine nights. Both are pierced with a spear.. Jesus talks about sacrificing an eye, and Odin does this.. as well has a hand, which Tyr loses. Jesus is a weary traveler, the Havamal describes this kind of lifestyle. So I think we might start there at least, to see what the resurrecting God archetype achieves, by being tested itself.. And that seems to be the attainment of knowledge, wisdom, or advancement up some kind of spiritual dimensional level.. It's a metaphor for transformation to gain more by passing a test

 

[SigurdReginson]

Before we can inherit what our Father has - He wants us to show Him what we would do when given freedom of choice.

How we act will affect what benefits/authority - if any - He will give us in His Kingdom.

Hmmm, ok. What are we inheriting, exactly? What kind of choices would we be making in the afterlife, and what kind of challenges or hardships would we face there?

Also, are these tests for him, or are they for us? Do we face them for our benefit, or do we face them so he can be sure that we wouldn't mess things up in heaven?

 

[SigurdReginson]

I might be answering your query indirectly, but i happen to find the comparison between norse mythology and the biblical stories rather striking and bizarre in the various congruence points. Something tells me that not too many people have really looked at it too hard.. not that I have, but it really is convincing me that some kind of unwritten indo-european religion existed, that radiated out from the middle-east westward

For example, why do both Jesus and Odin have self-sacrifices associated with the number 9? Jesus hangs for 9 hours on the cross, while Odin hangs for nine nights. Both are pierced with a spear.. Jesus talks about sacrificing an eye, and Odin does this.. as well has a hand, which Tyr loses. Jesus is a weary traveler, the Havamal describes this kind of lifestyle. So I think we might start there at least, to see what the resurrecting God archetype achieves, by being tested itself.. And that seems to be the attainment of knowledge, wisdom, or advancement up some kind of spiritual dimensional level.. It's a metaphor for transformation to gain more by passing a test

Very cool thoughts and insights... Gods sacrificing themselves to themselves. I'm not sure that there's a direct correlation, but it's cool to think about.

Then again, I'd be surprised if some of the theology didn't bleed out either way; religions don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[74x12]

If God sees us as His children, then he can only be described as an absentee parent. It's as if a parent were to stick a list of do's and don't on the fridge and then left for good. Hardly the best way to raise a child.

What you're saying happens only if you focus on the material world and ignore the spiritual connection you can have with God; in which case the rules become useless by themselves.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

In my understanding.
The tests we go through is to teach us about ourself, to make it possible for us to understand that we need to change our way of living, thinking or how we speak. The tests is there for us to find answers so we can elevate our own being to the next level.

 

[SigurdReginson]

In my understanding.
The tests we go through is to teach us about ourself, to make it possible for us to understand that we need to change our way of living, thinking or how we speak. The tests is there for us to find answers so we can elevate our own being to the next level.

I'd like to think this is the most useful and practical understanding on these things... Why would god want this for us, though? Why does he care whether or not we elevate ourselves?

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't really feel tested by a tester, no. I feel there are pressures in life, and I can either respect those pressures and avoid discomfort, or I can ignore them and maybe face consequences for ignoring them. Maybe a better word than "challenge" would be "hardship," since what we endure in life can't always be conquered...

I don't see hardship as a test, though if I believed that there's a grand director who has already planned how everything goes, I suppose I'd have to.

In reference to a grand director who plans everything in reference to our biological makeup ahead of time, that's not what I think in terms of difficulties we endure or encounter. But, as I understand it, God permits problems now in the sense of hardships. He does not plan each and every hardship. That is what I understand from the Bible. So the test -- may come in reference to faith and understanding.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'd like to think this is the most useful and practical understanding on these things... Why would god want this for us, though? Why does he care whether or not we elevate ourselves?

Because we are a part of God, but at the moment we are seperated by our own ego, God can see "himself" in us but humans struggle to see them self in God.
The tests awaken something deep within us and then it dawn on us that the struggle in life is not meant to punish us, but to awaken us to the truth, then we begin to see God within our own being.
This is how i have come to understand it

 

[SigurdReginson]

In reference to a grand director who plans everything in reference to our biological makeup ahead of time, that's not what I think in terms of difficulties we endure or encounter. But, as I understand it, God permits problems now in the sense of hardships. He does not plan each and every hardship. That is what I understand from the Bible. So the test -- may come in reference to faith and understanding.

Hmmm, interesting. It makes sense in a biblical sense as well when I think of the parable of Elijah and the forces of nature found in 1 Kings 19:11 on. God doesn't have to, and frankly doesn't intend to pull all the strings. I wonder why so many biblical literalists insist he does, then, when the bible itself says the opposite?

 

[SigurdReginson]

Because we are a part of God, but at the moment we are seperated by our own ego, God can see "himself" in us but humans struggle to see them self in God.

Hmmm... Humans struggle to see themselves in god. What does this mean to you, exactly?

The tests awaken something deep within us and then it dawn on us that the struggle in life is not meant to punish us, but to awaken us to the truth, then we begin to see God within our own being.
This is how i have come to understand it

That's nice. I think it's also important to not only see what's special in ourselves, but also to step outside of ourselves and see what's special in others.

I'm not sure everyone can walk away with that realization since life isn't always so fair, though... I can only ever truly understand my own experiences, so empathy does have it's limits, unfortunately. Sometimes challenge turns into torment, and when that's the case, I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind that.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Hmmm... Humans struggle to see themselves in god. What does this mean to you, exactly?



That's nice. I think it's also important to not only see what's special in ourselves, but also to step outside of ourselves and see what's special in others.

I'm not sure everyone can walk away with that realization since life isn't always so fair, though... I can only ever truly understand my own experiences, so empathy does have it's limits, unfortunately. Sometimes challenge turns into torment, and when that's the case, I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind that.

"humans struggle to see them self in God" To me it means that as long as we are in human form there is the pull toward the physical world and its "pleasure" and our ego or self want to feel pleasure and when we try to get ridd of it, it hurts, so instead of looking toward God and try to become one with God, humans tend to say, "But i have it so good here, i do not want to let go of this pleasure" Because shreding our ego hurt like nothing else
"Realizing God from within us only happens when we start letting go of this human realm we call earth" that is how i see it.

 

[Deeje]

So according to the Lord Jesus Christ himself - He says that a person must take up their own cross: (Matthew 16:24-26)

What does that mean? How does a Christian do that in real terms? What did Christ's execution stake come to represent? How does the road leading to life make the journey difficult? (Matthew 7:13-14)

And the disciples went through many challenges, including being put in prison for being Christian. Faced many different challenges going to different provinces, and traveling around the land of Israel, all 12 of the Apostles would go and teach about the good news of the coming of the kingdom the lost sheep of Israel.

It was many more than the 12....(Luke 10:1) Christ's instructions at Matthew 28:19-20 was to all Christians....and it was to be the case that they would be preaching about his Kingdom right to "the end". (Matthew 24: 13-14)
So what is "the good news of the Kingdom" and what is "the end" that he spoke about?
How many Christians do you personally know who have been in prison for their faith?

Suffering ups and downs of experiences in life; with or without God produces your character:

It does, but it produces something much more important.....it produces "endurance". (Matthew 24:13, 21-22) This is a quality in man that is like a muscle...it only gets stronger through use.....so the more we endure, the better we are at enduring. It will be needed as the time approaches for Christ's return as judge.

There are promises of rewards in heaven;. . . .
Suffering endured ~ Notice suffering : Thinking about this word and Christianity is funny because it one of the least expected notions that is of suffering for Christ.

It was never going to be a piece of cake....look what Jesus said in John 15:18-21...
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."

He was speaking to his disciples about their fellow Jews....those who believed in the same God, but they did not live up to what their scriptures taught, instead, through their ego driven leaders, they relied on human traditions to dictate their faith. Christendom has done the exact same thing. As Jesus said, in castigating the Jews for their adherence to tradition....
"he need not honor his father at all.’ So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matthew 15:6-9)

There are promises of eternal life:

Eternal life where? If you look at Genesis 3:22-24, the humans were kicked out of the garden and barred from "the tree of life" because of what would happen if sinful humans ate from that tree and "lived forever" here on earth!

The earth was supposed to be man's permanent home....
Ask yourself what would have happened if Adam and his wife had told the devil to "go away" as Jesus did? Would they ever have died? Would humans have ever needed Jesus to be their "Redeemer"? No sin, would have meant no death, because 'death is the wages of sin'.

There are promises of spiritual resurrection

Yes, but not all are promised this resurrection to heavenly life because those chosen ("the elect") will be "kings and priests" who are "resurrected first". (Revelation 20:6)
Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....so does the Bible indicate that there are others who attribute salvation to God and his Christ who are not chosen for rulership positions? Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 answer YES!...a great number of them.

Revelation 21:2-4 indicate that Christ and his Bride will rule over earthly subjects.....many of whom are pre-Christian servants of God who looked forward to the paradise foretold in Isaiah's prophesies. (Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 65:17-25) The ancient Jews had no notion of going to heaven.....the Kingdom of God was always going to rule on earth.

There are promises of justification by faith:

Yes, but justification cannot apply to willful sin. And in order for forgiveness to take place, repentance has to be demonstrated. Strong faith and honest humility is needed to overcome sinful traits. The unrepentant will therefore not be forgiven.

Always will be about the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did for mankind on the cross; and being risen again 3 days later by God ~

Indeed...but the majority of those who identify as "Christians" have no idea what Christ did by offering his life on our behalf. Nor do they have a clue as to what the Kingdom of God actually is.....that takes a careful study of the scriptures and in Christendom, the pastor, minister or priest knows it all for them, so they are virtually off the hook as long as they "believe on the Lord Jesus".....but what does it mean to "believe"? (James 2:19)