Why does god need to test us?

[SigurdReginson]

How does one learn empathy if one has never had hardship?

How can you relate to something (pain, hardship, loss, confusion, etc.) if you have no basis for comparison?
Of course, the same is true for the "good" things as well, (love, happiness, etc.)

If everything is always good, how do you know it is good if you never experience anything bad?

Seems to me that some things you believe about God is not lining up with your life experiences.
Thus your confusion.
So perhaps it is your expectations of God that needs to be looked at?

Oh, I'm an atheist. My understanding and expectations of god come from my upbringing as a biblical literalist, though. I also have experience with other god ideas, but I'm specifically curious about this one... Everyone has a different idea of god, and it's interesting to see their thoughts on the subject.

As for empathy, I'm not sure knowing hardships is essential to trying to understand how others feel about things - especially if other people in heaven never know hardships. It's like being able to see the color infrared. Why do I need to see that if no one else around me would be able to see it?

The only form of empathy I would need is in the shared experiences people would actually experience in heaven.

 

[McBell]

Oh, I'm an atheist. My understanding and expectations of god come from my upbringing as a biblical literalist, though. I also have experience with other god ideas, but I'm specifically curious about this one... Everyone has a different idea of god, and it's interesting to see their thoughts on the subject.

As for empathy, I'm not sure knowing hardships is essential to trying to understand how others feel about things - especially if other people in heaven never know hardships. It's like being able to see the color infrared. Why do I need to see that if no one else around me would be able to see it?

The only form of empathy I would need is in the shared experiences people would actually experience in heaven.

So in heaven you will become someone you are not?
I mean, after working so hard to get into heaven, it is all for naught once you get there?
Seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

 

[SigurdReginson]

So in heaven you will become someone you are not?
I mean, after working so hard to get into heaven, it is all for naught once you get there?
Seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

What I used to believe was that in heaven we would be given new spiritual bodies and would live in eternal Bliss. We'd be given grand mansions in heaven and spend eternity serving god in paradise.

Some would be given new spiritual bodies and go to hell and live in eternal torment. So... That's my understanding on the subject, and my point of reference.

The problem is that everyone has their own ideas, so it's nice to see what their ideas are, and their reasoning behind it.

 

[McBell]

What I used to believe was that in heaven we would be given new spiritual bodies and would live in eternal Bliss. We'd be given grand mansions in heaven and spend eternity serving god in paradise.

Some would be given new spiritual bodies and go to hell and live in eternal torment. So... That's my understanding on the subject, and my point of reference.

The problem is that everyone has their own ideas, so it's nice to see what their ideas are, and their reasoning behind it.

So a place where there is never any adversity to overcome?
Never getting the feeling of success?
The glow of accomplishment?

That sounds like hell to me...

 

[SigurdReginson]

So a place where there is never any adversity to overcome?
Never getting the feeling of success?
The glow of accomplishment?

That sounds like hell to me...

I don't think so. It won't feel like hell if your new spiritual body/brain doesn't interpret the lack of challenge or adversity as a bad thing. Can't get bored if you naturally can't get bored. those are earthly concepts for spiritual realities, so they can't really be compared...

So then why even have the mortal experience in the first place if it's spiritually incompatible in the afterlife?

To be fair, though, not everyone (not even the majority) of people with afterlife beliefs believe this. This was just my own ideas according to my religious upbringing.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Everything that He has.

Because we are the literal children of God - we can become just like Him one day - if that is what we desire.

The same choices that God makes and the same hardships He needs to deal with.

I mean - I don't know exactly what it means to become like God - because I don't know everything about Him and what He does - but I'm sure there's plenty involved.

I don't personally like referring to it as the "afterlife" because I believe that we lived before this life and physical death is just a transition.

Both of us.

Up until we entered mortality - we always knew there was a God because we lived with Him and He taught us everything there was to know to become like Him.

However - neither us or Him - knew that we would use this knowledge appropriately or if we even wanted to become like Him.

Ever heard the phrase, "Your true character is measured by what you do when no one is looking"?

This is why we passed through a veil of forgetfulness when we came into mortality - because this test is not one of "knowledge" - but of character.

He wants to see what we decide to do without knowing He is looking over our shoulder - to see where we will go and what we will do in eternity.

This life is really the only time in our eternal existence where we are completely free from knowing the truth - which is why it is referred to as our "probationary state".

So we get know who and what we really are. Not just automatons doing what our Father wants.

And He not only gets to see us use what He has given us - but He also gets to see who we really are blossom forth - not just a reflection of what He taught us - but the real us.

Honestly - we are His children and He loves us - all of us and we are all are edified by this experience.

It is impossible for us to mess things up anywhere but here in this life - because He rules and we will remember it when we return there.

However - rather than just having God give us things or positions of authority - without us ever knowing if we really want them or if we truly deserve them - we will have this experience in mortality that will confirm to us who we really are and what we really want.

So - even though this test edifies us all - I believe it is mostly for our benefit. It helps us discern what we want - because not everyone is going to want to be like our Father.

Hmmm... That's an interesting and thoughtful point if view as far as theology goes. Do your beliefs stem from a specific religion, or are they more solitary beliefs of yours? Also, life as a test is hardly fair... What lesson is there for a spirit to learn as a toddler who's life is cut short because of a brain tumor, or as a severely autistic individual who is forced to be trapped within the universe they construct within their own mind for their entire life?

 

[Jainarayan]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

It looks like we’re talking about the Abrahamic God, in which case I have no idea why he tests anyone. It’s one of the reasons I abandoned Christianity. It doesn’t make sense to me. I still hear “it’s God’s will” and “God doesn’t give us more than we can bear” when something bad happens. Well, for those who commit suicide because they’re at the end of their ropes it looks like God went a tad too far.

I think these are beliefs to try to explain why **** happens. Hinduism has no such tests from God(s) because everything that happens is a result of our karma and dharma (life duty based on our karma). God has no need to test us. God has no needs or wants, period. If one accepts that the universe and what we endure is a result of cause and effect (a greatly simplified explanation of karma) it necessarily removes God from the testing equation.

 

[McBell]

I don't think so. It won't feel like hell if your new spiritual body/brain doesn't interpret the lack of challenge or adversity as a bad thing. Can't get bored if you naturally can't get bored. those are earthly concepts for spiritual realities, so they can't really be compared...

So then why even have the mortal experience in the first place if it's spiritually incompatible in the afterlife?

To be fair, though, not everyone (not even the majority) of people with afterlife beliefs believe this. This was just my own ideas according to my religious upbringing.

So it will not be "me" going to heaven then.
I see no point in going if I am not even going to be me when I get there.

This is kinda the end result for the vast majority, if not all, the concepts of "heaven" (though there are numerous names for the afterlifes believed by people) I have heard.
You will not be you when you get there.
You will be a completely different person.

Now I can understand that for some people that is extremely appealing.
But I am not one of them.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Hmmm... That's an interesting and thoughtful point if view as far as theology goes. Do your beliefs stem from a specific religion, or are they more solitary beliefs of yours?

I follow a specific religion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Also, life as a test is hardly fair... What lesson is there for a spirit to learn as a toddler who's life is cut short because of a brain tumor, or as a severely autistic individual who is forced to be trapped within the universe they construct within their own mind for their entire life?

Mortal life can definitely be unfair - however - I believe that truth has been revealed that offers some solace.

Joseph Smith - the man I believe was a prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ - had many children with his wife - but most of them died either in infancy or when they were extremely young.

He claimed that he often pondered on these types of questions. Why do they live only to be snuffed out so soon? Why are so many people born with infirmities of mind and body if the point is for them to excel in this life?

He also claimed that he received some revelation on these topics and was comforted by them.

First - one of the main reasons that we enter into mortality - other than to be tested - was to obtain our own physical body.

Up until that point in our existence - we were spirits - only composed of spirit matter. We did comprehend pleasure and pain, sweet and bitter, energized or tired, health or sickness - good and evil.

There needs to be a time set aside for us to experience these things. And there is a promise that all of us will be able to keep our physical bodies at the conclusion of this world - much like the Lord Jesus Christ.

Second - he claimed that all of us knew the conditions that would be placed upon us before we entered this life - and we all agreed to them.

The toddler that died from a brain tumor knew what would happen - and felt that it was worth it - because even though their mortal life was brief - it allowed them to inherit a physical body that they will be reunited with it for an eternal inheritance at the moment of their Resurrection.

Third - their being born into mortality ensured that they entered into a family - and because of the promises made to Adam and Eve - they would be redeemed as a family unit and know joy from that relationship.

Fourth - there are certain ordinances that can only be performed in mortality. Things that need to take place while time is in effect. Everyone who has entered into mortality - even if they leave it early on - will have the opportunity to have these ordinances performed on their behalf.

Fifth - any and all infirmities placed upon us in mortality are temporary - and only have place in mortality. Mortal life is only a *blip* in our eternal existence. An important *blip* - but still a *blip* - and once we are Resurrected - all our infirmities of mind and body will be gone.

Sixth - our Father knew us intimately before we came to this world and therefore many of the infirmities that are placed on us are given to us to help us along our journey. To teach us something or push us in the right direction. We need to learn from them.

This is not to say that everything that happens to us is planned out completely - because imperfect mortality will always bring in some randomness.

Lastly - those who died before reaching the age of accountability - the age where they can appropriately discern good from evil - or those who live without being accountable - will be considered completely innocent at the time of their death - therefore they will immediately be ushered back into the arms of the Father. No need for Judgment.

Many of those who die before the age of accountability or who live without accountability (like with extreme cases of autism) are those spirits who did not need the rigors of mortal life to excel. They have already attained a level of excellence - and there was no need to test them further - and all they needed from mortality to grow was to obtain a physical body, inherit the promises made to Adam, enter into a family unit and receive gospel ordinances.

So they agreed to enter into mortal life - not only for their own benefit - but to be a benefit to others. They were here to help someone else learn something. To help them see a portion of the truth.

I know this last one to be true because I lost a son when he was a baby and I have two sons who are autistic - one severe - and I know that even though these things can be painful - I'm grateful for them.

Wow. I'm literally crying right now. Good time to end.

 

[Trailblazer]

IF it is God testing you with the ServSafe Certification, I would suspect that the experience of going through the certification process has taught you something that you will use later.

Yes, we will use what we have learned in this life later, when we pass from this world to the spiritual world. That is the primary reason for all these tests. They are supposed to make us more spiritual and stronger, build our character.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51

 

[Trailblazer]

So a place where there is never any adversity to overcome?
Never getting the feeling of success?
The glow of accomplishment?

That sounds like hell to me...

No, heaven won't be like that. There will still be work to do but there won't be adversities to overcome, because did that on earth. Why would God make a heaven where we would continue to have adversities forever? That would not be loving or just.

“A friend asked: “How should one look forward to death?”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

 

[McBell]

... Why would God make a heaven where we would continue to have adversities forever? That would not be loving or just.
...

Opinions differ.
I have no want or desire to become someone/something I am not.
I like adversity.
Keeps things from being boring.

What you describe sounds just plain awful.
I prefer to live, not merely exist.
And what the two of you have described is not living.
It is merely existing.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it will not be "me" going to heaven then.
I see no point in going if I am not even going to be me when I get there.

Rest assured that you will be you when you get to heaven, since the soul that continues to exist after we die is the sum total of our personality, and that is why it is so important to learn and grown and develop in THIS world, since we will not have the same opportunity in the next world, and that is one reason there is suffering. There will be no more suffering in the next life is we played our cards right in this life. Those of us who have suffered much cannot even imagine what that will be like with no more suffering, but we can still believe it will be the case.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[McBell]

Rest assured that you will be you when you get to heaven, since the soul that continues to exist after we die is the sum total of our personality, and that is why it is so important to learn and grown and develop in THIS world, since we will not have the same opportunity in the next world, and that is one reason there is suffering. There will be no more suffering in the next life is we played our cards right in this life. Those of us who have suffered much cannot even imagine what that will be like with no more suffering, but we can still believe it will be the case.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

I prefer to grow and learn over stagnating in bliss.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no want or desire to become someone/something I am not.
I like adversity.
Keeps things from being boring.

I guess that all depends upon what you mean by adversity. I do not think you would want to live forever in adversity, not if it is anything like what I have endured in this life. That is not living, it is just getting by. But if you are talking about challenges that is another story. I would be bored silly if I was just floating around in the clouds for eternity with nothing to do.

What you describe sounds just plain awful.
I prefer to live, not merely exist.
And what the two of you have described is not living.
It is merely existing.

It really won't be any different from this life except there will be no suffering and we will have a spiritual body instead of a physical body. The cause if suffering in this world is the physical body and the material world so when there is no more physical body and no more material world there will be no more suffering. But that does not mean there won't be any challenges or work to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

I prefer to grow and learn over stagnating in bliss.

There will be no stagnation, just movement forward. We will continue to grow and learn and there will be much more to learn in all the Worlds of God as opposed to just one world.

Stagnating in bliss is a Christian concept, not a Baha'i belief.

 

[Deeje]

Why does god want to put us through those trials in the first place, though? What is the end goal?

If you understand that free will was a gift in the beginning, to have the ability to make hundreds of choices every day...what to do, where to go, what to explore, what to eat or what to wear etc.....but exercised only within the parameters set by our Creator, otherwise it would become a curse if it was abused. Free will is only beneficial when those who possess it do not impose their will on others, to their detriment....then it becomes a curse. But humans needed to learn that lesson the hard way.....they were told to obey God, but they chose not to for their own reasons.....death, suffering and pain was the result.

It was God’s intention to have a perfect world inhabited by perfect beings who would follow his direction without trying to impose their own will on him or on their fellow humans. When temptation was placed in their path, they chose badly and unleashed imperfection, sin and death on all of their children.

In order to test humans as to their use of free will, he gave us all the choice between doing his will (with all the wonderful benefits promised for those who do) or to choose to do our own thing and ignore him. Each had clearly stated outcomes....but it was an “all or nothing” offer. Nothing half-hearted would do.

Since everything is his creation and therefore his property, God has the right to set the rules governing our life here. The universe is his project and this earth is but a tiny speck, and what I believe is the starting point of a much bigger plan. We are like the pilot program where all the “bugs” get ironed out, and all the tweaking takes place. Everything that takes place here is creating precedents for all time to come. Never again will God have to allow humans or angels to challenge his Sovereignty.

And we have to remember that God is a Creator, not a magician. He has all the time in the world to accomplish his will and to bring his purpose to a completion.

In order for ‘his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven’ then God must have as his subjects, those who will obey him of their own free will, so that everything he has planned can go ahead without conflict or abuse. We were robbed of that life because some humans did not want to do God’s will....they wanted to carry out their own, regardless of the consequences, with no concern about the pain and suffering they would cause to their offspring.

The world we have now, is the result. Do any of us love living here at present, with one major hit after another? Have we ever experienced collective life like this at any time in the past? Who do we have to blame for this?....humans who have followed God’s adversary into rebellion, IMO.

God stepped back and allowed this “wannabe” god to show us all what a great ruler he is.....why? Because telling the humans wasn’t enough, he had to show them firsthand what abusing free will would do to the human race.......but he did not leave himself without witness in the world....he left us an instruction manual with a record of his purpose, his dealings with humankind, outlining his future actions and the fact that an accounting would come at the end. In the meantime we are all showing God which god we want to serve, and which road we have chosen to travel. (Matthew 7:13-14)

There will finally be a separation of the “sheep from the goats” and we are all showing God in which of those two categories we have chosen to identify ourselves, of our own free will....so, will we loyally stick to God in difficult circumstances, (realising who is causing them to test our faith) or will we choose the easy way and blame everyone but ourselves for our bad choices?

The test is necessary so that the pain and suffering of this poor excuse for a life, will ever have to be experienced again.

 

[Trailblazer]

The test is necessary so that the pain and suffering of this poor excuse for a life, will ever have to be experienced again.

That's true, so it will never have to be experienced again, if we learned what we needed to from the pain and suffering.

 

[Bird123]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

Are you really being tested or are you being educated?? After overcoming challenges, one is so much smarter having learned through the journey. If those challenges never existed one would merely sit back and enjoy the ride. Not much advancement in that.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Are you really being tested or are you being educated?? After overcoming challenges, one is so much smarter having learned through the journey. If those challenges never existed one would merely sit back and enjoy the ride. Not much advancement in that.

What are we being advanced in preparation for?