Why Does God Permit Evil?

[nPeace]

You have the right perspective. God creates darkness. It's not that God wants to. Think of a cloud blocking the sun ... or a swarm of locusts blocking the sun. Etc. Obviously we're speaking of a metaphor but it's literally true that one can create darkness.

Thank you.

This prophecy in Isaiah 45 was addressed to Cyrus a Persian and probably a believer in Zoroastrianism. It is likely designed to counter the teaching of Zoroastrianism that the God of light and the god of darkness existed separately from each other. This way Cyrus can see that God claims He made both the Light and the darkness. This refutes the idea that evil is as strong as good. God is in control and Almighty. He will create darkness and He will end it also. (Malachi 4:2)

...and thank you.

God is in control and Almighty. He will create darkness and He will end it also. (Malachi 4:2)

Definitely.

 

[nPeace]

If something doesn't work the way I designed it to it means I lack the skill and judgement to make it properly. Furthermore whatever errors there are are my own fault.

I agree 100%.
That's why I 'm glad that creation wasn't left in any of our hands.

Likewise if God created all things then all evil is his own fault.

I disagree 100%.
Man worked exactly how God designed him to work - to exercise free choice - with whatever consequences.
The creator knew exactly what he was doing, and being in full control, he knows how much strength is needed to pull on, or release the reigns of his chariot.

We on the other hand... well I'm sorry, but we end up running behind the horse, and the cart.
Let me illustrate.
You make a bread knife. What's it for? To cut bread obviously.
You did a real nice job - perfect! As they say, A-OK, and the housewives praise you. You're pleased.

However, one day, in a heat of anger, someone grabbed your bread knife, and cut the baker's throat. He didn't live.
So the cops came to your door, put the handcuffs on you, and drag you off to prison, where you spend the rest of your life.

Bravo! Well done cops. You did a fine job. You got your man.
Case closed.

Precisely. That is why I subscribe to the belief that there is a part of us that has always existed, which God never created or made. And God is trying to teach us to become more like him, that we may grow.

A part of us?
That's still your idea. All you have to do is write a book on it, but how many people will believe your story. Perhaps a handful. and that's because your story has no supportive testimony.
It's merely a belief that you subscribe to.

 

[nPeace]

Only, that's not what I said. The passages are your god literally saying that he creates everything, even evil. That is the "overarching picture"; nothing happens or exists without your god's say-so.

Your personal hang-ups about this are exactly why "The Devil" was created.


I have no clue what your example is supposed to illustrate. The verses from your own holy book say that your god creates good and evil. Your god creates everything.

Let me put it this way. If I'm playing a SIMs game, I am the entity that created their deluxe house and lucrative jobs, and I'm also the entity that killed their son by locking him in a burning room. Me, and only me.

The holy book says God cannot lie. Did he create lies, and liars?

 

[Thanda]

I disagree 100%.
Man worked exactly how God designed him to work - to exercise free choice - with whatever consequences.
The creator knew exactly what he was doing, and being in full control, he knows how much strength is needed to pull on, or release the reigns of his chariot.

Remember that, according to your belief, before God created there was nothing...neither good nor evil. There was just God. Then he created. After that there was both good and evil. It was he therefore who introduced both good and evil into the Universe. He cannot claim the good while absolving himself of the evil. He must claim both or neither.

If God created everything from nothing then he is responsible for everything, good and bad.

We on the other hand... well I'm sorry, but we end up running behind the horse, and the cart.
Let me illustrate.
You make a bread knife. What's it for? To cut bread obviously.
To did a real nice job - perfect! As they say, A-OK, and the housewives praise you. You're pleased.

However, one day, in a heat of, someone grabbed your bread knife, and cut the baker's throat. He didn't live.
So the cops came to your door, put the handcuffs on you, and drag you off to prison, where you spend the rest of your life.

Bravo! Well done cops. You did a fine job. You got your man.
Case closed.

For your analogy to make sense the knife must have been given the intelligence to act on it's own. So let's say the knife is robotic and is created to automatically cut bread whenever it is close to it. But one day instead of cutting the bread the knife decides to cut the baker. Then the police will come and arrest you and ask you why your knife is malfunctioning.

A part of us?
That still your idea. All you have to do is write a book on it, but how many people will believe your story. Perhaps a handful. and that's because you story has no supportive testimony.
It's merely a belief that you subscribe too.

Whose testimony does your story have? Your story that God created the world out of nothing?

In any event I have considered both stories and I find my story (as you call it) to be the one with the most internal consistency and logic.

 

[nPeace]

Remember that, according to your belief, before God created there was nothing...neither good nor evil. There was just God. Then he created. After that there was both good and evil. It was he therefore who introduced both good and evil into the Universe. He cannot claim the good while absolving himself of the evil. He must claim both or neither.

If God created everything from nothing then he is responsible for everything, good and bad.

That's not my belief, sorry.
From my little understanding, I know it's impossible to get anything from nothing. It's a mathematical truth - zero plus zero is still zero.

I do not believe God created everything from nothing. Energy isn't nothing.
I believe God is, so before anything else existed, there existed good, and also with God, a knowing of good and evil.
Yes. God does know what constitutes evil, but it doesn't mean he is evil, nor do I believe that he introduced it.

I may know what can happen if I were to drop a child on it's head, but I haven't done it, nor will I do it.
It's just a matter of direction imo. If one goes against what is good, then it's bad.
By having freedom of choice one can take a course that is bad.

For your analogy to make sense the knife must have been given the intelligence to act on it's own. So let's say the knife is robotic and is created to automatically cut bread whenever it is close to it. But one day instead of cutting the bread the knife decides to cut the baker. Then the police will come and arrest you and ask you why your knife is malfunctioning.

No, your analogy only makes it worst, and complicated. Adam and Eve weren't designed to function like robots, nor in an automatic way. So my analogy seems better, in that God did not design them to do only good. He knew that they could choose otherwise, but like I said, being in control, things would not be allowed to get to a stage where God ends up running behind the horse and cart, as in the case with humans.
That, to me, makes all the difference.

Whose testimony does your story have? Your story that God created the world out of nothing?

In any event I have considered both stories and I find my story (as you call it) to be the one with the most internal consistency and logic.

That God created the heavens and earth with his power, and dynamic energy has the testimony of many witnesses - Genesis through to Revelation.
Okay. I believe the Bible's account to be accurate and reliable.

 

[Thanda]

That's not my belief, sorry.
From my little understanding, I know it's impossible to get anything from nothing. It's a mathematical truth - zero plus zero is still zero.

I do not believe God created everything from nothing. Energy isn't nothing.
I believe God is, so before anything else existed, there existed good, and also with God, a knowing of good and evil.
Yes. God does know what constitutes evil, but it doesn't mean he is evil, nor do I believe that he introduced it.

Great, I'm glad we agree something can't be made of nothing. So you say it is energy that was used to create life? Is this energy good or evil? If it is neither good nor evil and God is good then whatever God creates from it must be good no? And if what God only creates good then from where does the evil comes? Where do the evil desires of human beings come from? Who gave it to them?

No, your analogy only makes it worst, and complicated. Adam and Eve weren't designed to function like robots, nor in an automatic way. So my analogy seems better, in that God did not design them to do only good. He knew that they could choose otherwise, but like I said, being in control, things would not be allowed to get to a stage where God ends up running behind the horse and cart, as in the case with humans.
That, to me, makes all the difference.

Being able to choose and doing evil are two different things. God is able to choose but he always does good right? If so then giving Adam and Eve the power to choose doesn't mean they will do evil. People only do evil because there is evil desires in their hearts. Again I ask who gave them these desires? Adam and Eve did not create themselves. Who gave them the desires to disobey God?

That God created the heavens and earth with his power, and dynamic energy has the testimony of many witnesses - Genesis through to Revelation.
Okay. I believe the Bible's account to be accurate and reliable.

Do you know what a witness is? Nobody witnessed God creating the heaven and the earth. Anybody who says he they know God created it is not a witness but a believer - unless they have received a revelation from God.

 

[sojourner]

Only, that's not what I said. The passages are your god literally saying that he creates everything, even evil. That is the "overarching picture"; nothing happens or exists without your god's say-so.

Your personal hang-ups about this are exactly why "The Devil" was created.

It’s still disingenuous, no matter what you said, because you’re still pulling passages out of context, treating them in a dishonest way. God didn’t literally say what you’re accusing God of having said. The author said that God said that. It may be poetry, it may be hyperbole. But it is not a literalism, given the type of literature. This isn’t news reporting. Discovering why the author had God say that is more important, and says way more about the context than it does about God.

And for the record, you don’t know me well enough to comment on my “personal hang-ups.” You have no idea what they may or may not be, and the ad hominem isn’t cogent to the argument, at any rate. If you knew to whom you were speaking, you wouldn’t have made the comment.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Man. That is deep. Thanks for sharing.
I guess for the most part, we don't know how to be appropriative and thankful.
The sun shines - we bawl.
The rain falls - we bawl.
What?

To be fair though, I think out of those 50, about 20 are genuinely confused, simply because they have been lied to, and misled by the priest, that's just interested in taking their money, or being paid by the government.

Thank you, sincerely.

 

[dfnj]

What does the Bible have to say on this subject?
Some say if God existed, he would put an end to the suffering we see in the world.
Others say that there is evidence God exists, and there is a reason why God permits suffering.
I want to get some input on the Biblical view on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering.
Please try to provide scripture to support what you say, since this is supposed to present what the Bible says on the topic.

The Bible is clear on the existence of evil and who is responsible:

Isaiah 45:7 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

The question of why has to do with faith which I will explain below.

The Bible is full of verses about our relationship to evil:

Proverbs 17:15 ESV / 16 helpful votes
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord.

Your question "on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering" is not answered in the Bible because in my opinion your question is an incorrect interpretation of the problem of evil: "The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world."

Here is my interpretation and solution to the problem of evil. I believe the interpretation I am about to give is in perfect alignment with the verses in the Bible.

So the problem with "the problem of evil" is the idea of evil. And what what is the source of evil. God did not create us as perfect beings. God did not create us with omnipotent powers. Because each of us has imperfections the challenge of faith is to choose to have a loving relationship with our creator in spite of all our own imperfections which are the causes of all our suffering. We are the ones responsible for ALL that is evil in the world because of our imperfections. This is how God created us. The problem of evil is really just a childish view like hating your parents because your parents have weaknesses (which are also your own weaknesses). The same is true for God. It is a immature way of thinking to blame God for the all the evil in the world since it is our own imperfections which are causing it.

So what you are really asking in your original post is why did God create us with imperfections? Why didn't God create us perfect with omnipotent powers? Why are we separate from God? Why did God create the Universe at all in the first place since we have so much suffering? I think the answer to all these questions is we are our omnipotent God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joys and frustrations. And in spite of all our imperfections and sufferings, when we die we get to return back to God and experience eternally heavenly bliss which heals all our pain and suffering.

 

[nPeace]

Great, I'm glad we agree something can't be made of nothing. So you say it is energy that was used to create life? Is this energy good or evil? If it is neither good nor evil and God is good then whatever God creates from it must be good no? And if what God only creates good then from where does the evil comes? Where do the evil desires of human beings come from? Who gave it to them?



Being able to choose and doing evil are two different things. God is able to choose but he always does good right? If so then giving Adam and Eve the power to choose doesn't mean they will do evil. People only do evil because there is evil desires in their hearts. Again I ask who gave them these desires? Adam and Eve did not create themselves. Who gave them the desires to disobey God?



Do you know what a witness is? Nobody witnessed God creating the heaven and the earth. Anybody who says he they know God created it is not a witness but a believer - unless they have received a revelation from God.

I think I am beginning to lose you, so let me ask. What do you believe evil to be again?

I'm not referring to witnessing God creating, but now that you mentioned it. The son of God did, and he referred to it - including the creation of the first man and woman.

 

[nPeace]

The Bible is clear on the existence of evil and who is responsible:



The question of why has to do with faith which I will explain below.

The Bible is full of verses about our relationship to evil:



Your question "on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering" is not answered in the Bible because in my opinion your question is an incorrect interpretation of the problem of evil: "The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world."

Here is my interpretation and solution to the problem of evil. I believe the interpretation I am about to give is in perfect alignment with the verses in the Bible.

So the problem with "the problem of evil" is the idea of evil. And what what is the source of evil. God did not create us as perfect beings. God did not create us with omnipotent powers. Because each of us has imperfections the challenge of faith is to choose to have a loving relationship with our creator in spite of all our own imperfections which are the causes of all our suffering. We are the ones responsible for ALL that is evil in the world because of our imperfections. This is how God created us. The problem of evil is really just a childish view like hating your parents because your parents have weaknesses (which are also your own weaknesses). The same is true for God. It is a immature way of thinking to blame God for the all the evil in the world since it is our own imperfections which are causing it.

So what you are really asking in your original post is why did God create us with imperfections? Why didn't God create us perfect with omnipotent powers? Why are we separate from God? Why did God create the Universe at all in the first place since we have so much suffering? I think the answer to all these questions is we are our omnipotent God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joys and frustrations. And in spite of all our imperfections and sufferings, when we die we get to return back to God and experience eternally heavenly bliss which heals all our pain and suffering.

You said

I am about to give is in perfect alignment with the verses in the Bible.

... but I don't see any scriptures that supports this view.

 

[Thanda]

I think I am beginning to lose you, so let me ask. What do you believe evil to be again?

Evil is doing that which is against the will of God.

I'm not referring to witnessing God creating, but now that you mentioned it. The son of God did, and he referred to it - including the creation of the first man and woman.

What kind of witnesses are you talking about then?

 

[Sleeppy]

God created of, or out of, Himself. Being the "only good", according to Jesus, everything else is a lesser good, i.e. 'evil' to some degree. 'Evil' denotes the lesser state of anything or anyone, apart from God.

As long as creation exists, evil will exist. Evil however is not a creation, it is a result of being lesser than absolute good, which only God maintains.

 

[nPeace]

Evil is doing that which is against the will of God.

I thought you said that before.
So aren't you answering your own questions then?
Why Does God Permit Evil?

What kind of witnesses are you talking about then?

I meant that the many Bible writers, and they accounts are testimony, and witness to the truthfulness of the texts. The texts are harmoniously supportive.

 

[dfnj]

You said

... but I don't see any scriptures that supports this view.

As I said in my post I don't think there are any scriptures addressing the "Problem of Evil" as it has been framed and defined by philosophers.

Problem of evil - Wikipedia

The Bible also doesn't specifically use the words omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent. If you are Hell bent on blaming God for man's own imperfections I think you are missing the point of what the Bible is saying about evil. Evil comes from man's choices and not from God. Of course, if you say God is ultimately responsible for all that is evil the scripture I quoted accepts God's responsibility. Again, I think you are missing the point of what the Bible is saying. The essential message of the Bible is clear and that is don't be an evil jerk hurting other people.

The problem with philosophy is it is mostly BS with language. Can God have a thought so complex that even She can't understand it? Of course and omnipotent God can have such thought because an omnipotent God does not have limitations.

What are you trying to prove? Yes, God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about. Maybe the expressions of evil God tolerates are because of some grander master plan beyond our comprehension. Maybe there exists an infinite number of alternate Universes that are only different based on the choices you make. Maybe God tolerates evil so God can realize every possible outcome on the quantum level so God's omnipotence is fully realized. We exist in just one finite Universe with a finite set of choices made by its participates. God's omnipotence would not be complete without letting us play out every choice we can make. I'm speculating of course. But I don't accept the argument God is essentially evil because He tolerates bad human behavior. I think each of us is responsible for crapping in our beds. I don't think I want God to clean up our mess. What would be the point of living if we had nothing to complain about?

Maybe there does exist an alternate Universe where God prevents every act of evil. Apparently, it's not this one!

 

[Thanda]

I thought you said that before.
So aren't you answering your own questions then?
Why Does God Permit Evil?

Please explain how you think I've answered my own questions

I meant that the many Bible writers, and they accounts are testimony, and witness to the truthfulness of the texts. The texts are harmoniously supportive.

In that case my story about our eternal existence also has many witnesses. There are many within the LDS faith who have written about it and they testimonies are harmonious.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

What does the Bible have to say on this subject?

Some say if God existed, he would put an end to the suffering we see in the world.
Others say that there is evidence God exists, and there is a reason why God permits suffering.
I want to get some input on the Biblical view on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering.
Please try to provide scripture to support what you say, since this is supposed to present what the Bible says on the topic.

Because their has to be a natural order to the universe.

Or maybe it's for ****s and giggles

or Maybe it's because you touch yourselves at night.

I bet if you ask him, he'll tell you.

 

[nPeace]

The Bible is clear on the existence of evil and who is responsible:



The question of why has to do with faith which I will explain below.

The Bible is full of verses about our relationship to evil:



Your question "on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering" is not answered in the Bible because in my opinion your question is an incorrect interpretation of the problem of evil: "The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world."

Here is my interpretation and solution to the problem of evil. I believe the interpretation I am about to give is in perfect alignment with the verses in the Bible.

So the problem with "the problem of evil" is the idea of evil. And what what is the source of evil. God did not create us as perfect beings. God did not create us with omnipotent powers. Because each of us has imperfections the challenge of faith is to choose to have a loving relationship with our creator in spite of all our own imperfections which are the causes of all our suffering. We are the ones responsible for ALL that is evil in the world because of our imperfections. This is how God created us. The problem of evil is really just a childish view like hating your parents because your parents have weaknesses (which are also your own weaknesses). The same is true for God. It is a immature way of thinking to blame God for the all the evil in the world since it is our own imperfections which are causing it.

So what you are really asking in your original post is why did God create us with imperfections? Why didn't God create us perfect with omnipotent powers? Why are we separate from God? Why did God create the Universe at all in the first place since we have so much suffering? I think the answer to all these questions is we are our omnipotent God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joys and frustrations. And in spite of all our imperfections and sufferings, when we die we get to return back to God and experience eternally heavenly bliss which heals all our pain and suffering.

You said:

Here is my interpretation and solution to the problem of evil. I believe the interpretation I am about to give is in perfect alignment with the verses in the Bible.

Yet you do not provide any scriptures, nor verses for which one can determine which verses you had in mind, nor can verify if your interpretation holds any validity, etc.
Therefore, it seems the best I can do is thank you for sharing your philosophy.

 

[nPeace]

Please explain how you think I've answered my own questions



In that case my story about our eternal existence also has many witnesses. There are many within the LDS faith who have written about it and they testimonies are harmonious.

You asked:
If it is neither good nor evil and God is good then whatever God creates from it must be good no? And if what God only creates good then from where does the evil comes? Where do the evil desires of human beings come from? Who gave it to them?

You said:
Evil is doing that which is against the will of God.

Evil is anything that goes contrary to God, or his will. Therefore, when intelligent creation made decisions to go against God - enter evil.
The reason being, if God always existed, and as the Bible says of him, he is Holy - that is - pure to the superlative degree - nothing can tarnish, nor corrupt him. Then evil did not exist. Just as there is no darkness with him - for he is light. (If you take away light, there is darkness).
So to go in the opposite direction of good, is evil or bad.
Agreed?

No comment on the last paragraph.

 

[nPeace]

What does the Bible have to say on this subject?

Some say if God existed, he would put an end to the suffering we see in the world.
Others say that there is evidence God exists, and there is a reason why God permits suffering.
I want to get some input on the Biblical view on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering.
Please try to provide scripture to support what you say, since this is supposed to present what the Bible says on the topic.

Update:
So I think the answer to this question has been nicely covered from the Biblical view - which is what I was asking for.
Answers: Link 1; Link 2; Link 3;

I think since the reputation of the God of the Bible is under attack, then it is fitting that the Bible provide the answers to the question. Since the Bible is it's own witness - having numerous writers, then each testimony can be verified by another's.

From the above provided links, I believe a reasonable, wise, and justified answer has been given, from writings claimed to be inspired by God himself. 2 Timothy 3:16

Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God’s approval.