Why Does God Permit Evil?

[columbus]

• Lying is to make a deliberate false statement.
• Lying is usually verbal.

• Deception is causing to believe something false.
• Deception can both be intentional or else unintentional in which case the person becomes self-deceived.

I think that there's something more fundamental. Lying and deception are not inherently wrong. What's wrong is degrading the human situation.
Saying, "Oh no, it's no problem!", when you're lying to assuage the feelings of someone you're helping is not a bad thing.

And much damage is done by telling partial truths. Saying things that are true, but don't accurately reflect the reality.
The political and media world is especially full of that.

To me, this makes it obvious that there is no "objective morality". Lying and deception aren't wrong, what's wrong is degrading the human situation, and people often have different opinions about how things *should* be.
Tom

 

[nPeace]

If you're a child of God then the evil in the world has the work of making you better. Because you are not a conqueror without a battle. For example the happiness that the mountain climber feels when they plant a flag on the peak is because the climb was so difficult. This is how evil purifies your faith, love, joy and any virtue because it is tested and therefore it's strengthened because it overcame temptation.

So just like a climber needs to actually climb mountains to improve their climbing skills. The same thing to improve your moral character. Or just like anyone must exercise to grow their muscles.

Or take courage. You can say it or show it.
Faith you can say it, or show it.
Faithfulness, you can say it or ... you get my point?

May I suggest that maybe God knows more than you about this topic? And this is not the only way that God purifies. The main way that God purifies is through the unmerited favor of God. That is God working within someone to make them better. Not you, but the love of God in you. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Do you want a dictionary definition or my take on it or something else? I don't know what to expect when people ask me to define a word.

The analogy is of refining of gold. You have to heat up and melt gold to make it pure. Otherwise it's just gold "ore". It's not necessarily that beautiful.

I get the impression that you are not saying that God created the evil for the purpose of purifying his children, but that he allowed it, and for those who bear up, with his help, they gain much from their endurance.
Philippians 4:11-13

...I've learned to be content in whatever situation I’m in. 12 I know how to live in poverty or prosperity. No matter what the situation, I've learned the secret of how to live when I’m full or when I’m hungry, when I have too much or when I have too little. 13 I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me.

James 1:4

4 Endure until your testing is over. Then you will be mature and complete, and you won’t need anything.

In other words, while evil exists, it can result in building appealing qualities in those who endure, while looking to their creator for strength - which he gives.
For those broken and crushed by evil, there will be a healing when God restores all things - like a broken toy that was fixed, and brings a smile to the face of the weeping child.

I see that from your particular statement:

If you're a child of God then the evil in the world has the work of making you better.

Am I reading you correctly?

 

[nPeace]

I think that there's something more fundamental. Lying and deception are not inherently wrong. What's wrong is degrading the human situation.
Saying, "Oh no, it's no problem!", when you're lying to assuage the feelings of someone you're helping is not a bad thing.

And much damage is done by telling partial truths. Saying things that are true, but don't accurately reflect the reality.
The political and media world is especially full of that.

To me, this makes it obvious that there is no "objective morality". Lying and deception aren't wrong, what's wrong is degrading the human situation, and people often have different opinions about how things *should* be.
Tom

I'm not particularly following you.

 

[Thanda]

A desire to rebel?
If you are eating a Popsicle, or Ice pop, and rather than suck it, you decide to bite it. Why do you do that?
Maybe you think it's melting too quickly, and you want all of it to end up in your stomach, and not on the ground.
Whatever the reason, it a choice you make based on the knowledge you have in your mind.

Every decision one makes does not come from God, does it?
Did the decision to make and use the atom bomb come from God? No it didn't.
The choices we make come from our ability to think, formulate, and act on our thoughts and ideas.

So if evil is the result of us being imperfectly made (we don't know or understand everything) then the blame for evil (including the atomic bomb for example) lies squarely with God. We certainly did not create ourselves. We did not make ourselves imperfect. We did not cause ourselves to have a lack of knowledge. So how can I be blamed for decisions I make as a result of my God given ignorance?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I think we need other opinions on that.

That entire article is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Lying is quite simply not telling the truth. If you omit the truth from a statement to deceive guess what? You're lying. You are not telling the truth, even as you're not replacing it with a falsehood.

 

[nPeace]

That entire article is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Lying is quite simply not telling the truth. If you omit the truth from a statement to deceive guess what? You're lying. You are not telling the truth, even as you're not replacing it with a falsehood.

Have it your way. The cake is yours. I'll keep the truth.

 

[nPeace]

So if evil is the result of us being imperfectly made (we don't know or understand everything) then the blame for evil (including the atomic bomb for example) lies squarely with God. We certainly did not create ourselves. We did not make ourselves imperfect. We did not cause ourselves to have a lack of knowledge. So how can I be blamed for decisions I make as a result of my God given ignorance?

Why do you say that? Where in the Bible does it say that something God created was imperfectly made?

 

[james blunt]

God does not allow evil, God is not in control , humans are in control .

You have to hear God to be good.

 

[Thanda]

Why do you say that? Where in the Bible does it say that something God created was imperfectly made?

I'm not talking about what the Bible says...I'm talking about what you're saying. You say we didn't exist before God created us. That means everything we are was created by God. This includes the desire to do good as well as the desire to do evil. But then you say the desire for evil comes from our lack of knowledge. Once again it is God who created us with a lack of knowledge. Therefore if we commit any sin as a result of our lack of knowledge it is God's fault not ours since we did not created ourselves.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not talking about what the Bible says...I'm talking about what you're saying. You say we didn't exist before God created us. That means everything we are was created by God. This includes the desire to do good as well as the desire to do evil. But then you say the desire for evil comes from our lack of knowledge. Once again it is God who created us with a lack of knowledge. Therefore if we commit any sin as a result of our lack of knowledge it is God's fault not ours since we did not created ourselves.

I did not say that.
Perhaps you can point out where I said that, so I can both verify, and clarify.

 

[Thanda]

I did not say that.
Perhaps you can point out where I said that, so I can both verify, and clarify.

Which part do you dispute saying?

 

[nPeace]

Which part do you dispute saying?

I did not say

That means everything we are was created by God. This includes the desire to do good as well as the desire to do evil. But then you say the desire for evil comes from our lack of knowledge. Once again it is God who created us with a lack of knowledge. Therefore if we commit any sin as a result of our lack of knowledge it is God's fault not ours since we did not created ourselves.

 

[Thanda]

I did not say

So you didn't say everything was created by God?

 

[nPeace]

So you didn't say everything was created by God?

Not the way you interpret it. I made it clear that I don't believe God created the Atom bomb.
I'm quite certain he didn't create computers, or motor vehicles, nor did he put in in man's mind to create germs, nor clone...
He didn't put it in your mind to bite the ice pop either.

 

[Michael1981]

Hi there. Thank for dropping in on the discussion.
On that scripture in Isaiah 45:7, what is your understanding, when it says

Sorry for just now getting back to you; for some reason, I only seem to get e-mail notifications for responses sometimes, not all the time. I should've checked back.

I'm not going to say that I know the proper "interpretation" for "I form the light and create darkness," but it seems pretty straightforward to me. Taking a look at 1 John 4-7 might be worthwhile:

And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

God is light, God is righteousness. Darkness is what is not of God: sin, confusion, death, and hell. Job 10:20-21 are also worth looking at.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry for just now getting back to you; for some reason, I only seem to get e-mail notifications for responses sometimes, not all the time. I should've checked back.

I'm not going to say that I know the proper "interpretation" for "I form the light and create darkness," but it seems pretty straightforward to me. Taking a look at 1 John 4-7 might be worthwhile:

And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

God is light, God is righteousness. Darkness is what is not of God: sin, confusion, death, and hell. Job 10:20-21 are also worth looking at.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
The delay was no problem. After all, we don't live on computers.
So basically, you don't take it in this context as total light, and total darkness.

 

[Michael1981]

So basically, you don't take it in this context as total light, and total darkness.

I'm not sure where you're getting that. If God is light, and total light, and that which is not of Him is darkness, total darkness, then it seems to me that that must be universally applied. Here is a good example:

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your vision is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." (Matthew 6:23-25)

With the Lord, you're either all in or you're not in at all. Walking with Him will cost you everything, but the reward is total light, and leaving behind total darkness. What a great thing!

 

[nPeace]

I'm not sure where you're getting that. If God is light, and total light, and that which is not of Him is darkness, total darkness, then it seems to me that that must be universally applied. Here is a good example:

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your vision is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." (Matthew 6:23-25)

With the Lord, you're either all in or you're not in at all. Walking with Him will cost you everything, but the reward is total light, and leaving behind total darkness. What a great thing!

So God created himself, in your view?

 

[Ostronomos]

Evil will inevitably be destroyed as it is opposed to the universe's benevolent self-designing tendency. But this requires a series of logical steps. It is said that because we are cut off from God, salvation is out of reach for us. Hence in our desperation, we find no help. But this is simply a part of the nature of the universe. Blind nature is the dividing line between us and God. It is not so much that God lacks existence to grant salvation, but rather, that there is no bridge or connection between our world and God's universe or the God-verse. By reconnecting with the God-verse through the exclusive properties of a kind of universal oneness, an individual can perceive God. And hence the Mind of God which will be followed by protection from evil forces upon vocal requests (i.e. deterministic sincere prayer). Hence evil is revealed in all its deceptiveness via interaction with God in the God-verse.

 

[Michael1981]

So God created himself, in your view?

Why are you asking? I think most people who believe in the existence of God believe that no one created Him. As the book of Revelation states:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” (Revelation 22:13)