Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[Serenity7855]

I made an analogy not a strawman argument. God told satan to inflict suffering on Job by killing his family and by your "reasoning" he has absolutely NO responsibility for that suffering whatsoever. So using your same "reasoning" Hitler telling others to murder absolves him of any blame or guilt for German death camps. That is not a strawman argument, it is a demonstration of how your "reasoning" is twisted and flawed.

Using an analogy is to use a Straw Man. He is alien to the argument and you have introduced him to dishonestly prove Him to be wrong, then you associated Hitler with God by saying that Because Hitler did it, and he is evil, then God must be evil and I must be evil to believe in God. What an odious comparison to make on a religious forum to compare a poster and his God to Hitler. I am sure but that must be against a rule somewhere. Haven't you got hostile all of a sudden? Did you see you setup falling through?

Why are you arguing about Job, you do not believe that God exists, so why try and ensnare me in your puerile traps. It is impossible for God to do anything that is immoral or He would cease to be God, just as you see Him now. It is a story with a principle. We do not know whether there was anyone called Job. I wasn't there so I don't know, however, God has included the story in the Old Testament in order to teach us righteous principles. You do not have to worry about it as you don't believe it so you haven't a clue where your headed or why. Christianity is no business of aggressive atheists who use subterfuge to prove that they are right when disproving God's existence it equally as hard as proving that he doesn't exist. Neither can be done..

Again, I did not make a strawman argument. Also, according to his actions as portrayed in the bible, the bible god is a sadistic tyrant many times worse then Hitler. Hitler never killed everyone on the planet except for a handful of people.

Yes you did. You blatantly replaced God in my argument with Hitler and stood him up as a straw man ready to be knocked down. You then tried to knock him down by saying that if Hitler did it then God must be synonymous with Hitler. Then you accuse me of being like Hitler was in order to twist my point, which is a lie. You knocked the Straw Man down. No one would have even known it if I didn't pull you up on it because not many here know about logical fallacies, or poor reasoning.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition

 

[Serenity7855]

Why does hell exist again? Oh right, god created it. By the way, by not intervening to stop crimes and atrocities when he has the power to, god is just as responsible for what happens on the world he created. But that's if you think about it using logic.

He does not have the power to prevent crime. He cannot intervene. Can you not comprehend that principle. If He went around acting like superman then there would be no trial of our faith. God didn't create hell, the sins of men did, that is if it even exists. Is it logic for an atheist to look at a God, that he does not believe exists, with critical eyes.

 

[Serenity7855]

One of the ten commandments is that you will worship none other than him. How many people in the world don't follow a Abrahamic religion? According to your logic anyone who is a Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, Scientologist, Wiccan, Atheist, or one of many OTHER things are on god's bad side. Billions of people.

There was a study that showed that the happiest and one of the wealthiest countries in the world is one of the least religious.

How do you measure being least or more religious. What question were asked in the poll. What was the size of the specimen sample. This world is in the worst degradation of moral and social values that we have ever seen, and the culprits are atheists with no moral values. They cannot have what we have because they cannot live a Christian lifestyle, so they don't want us to have it either. I don't believe such a study exists, but prove me wrong, for what good it will do.

A recent study about happiness in the UK showed that Hindus were the happiest people in the UK. Once again, reality doesn't support your religious beliefs. Not that it matters to a true believer, they are impervious to logic, facts, and reality.

It is not a competition, however, that doesn't surprise me, they are very nice people.

No, your "understanding" of my religion is not supported by reality. But you do not know what I know because you are hostile and offensive to the children of God.

And yet again you insult a people for their beliefs when you are an atheist who doesn't believe in anything. You are a marvellous ambassador for atheism.[/QUOTE]

 

[Serenity7855]

You do realize you were just saying god cannot inflict pain on his children and now you are claiming he punishes people, and that once he drowned a whole bunch of people. This is your brain on religion. Just say no kids.

You need to read for comprehension. I said that it was their wickedness that brought a flood on them. I did not say that God sent the flood. It was cause and effect.

 

[Serenity7855]

Religion does cause harm.

No it doesn't, you would like for it to.

It messes with peoples heads.

If it messes with you head it is because you have allowed it to. Christianity is based on Good healthy principles that only promote righteousness when lived as it should be.

It gives evil men a tool to manipulate the masses into performing atrocities.

No, you cannot blame Christianity for the actions of men. Those people do not need religion to perform their atrocities.

It enables bigotry.

No, we are all naturally bigots

It is used to promote wars.

Not to my knowledge it hasn't

It hinders scientific progress.

Where. On the contrary, it encourages scientific progress. You are using standard atheist rhetoric.

It invokes fear of imaginary consequences that do not exist.

Not for me it doesn't

It makes people ashamed for simply being who they are when they shouldn't be.

If shame is felt then it is felt for a reason. The reason is down to those who are doing wrong and knowing they are doing wrong.

The list goes on. Humanity needs to grow up and realize it's collective Santa Claus's do not exist.

No, they doi not exist to you because you cannot go the distance. It is all about blame with you.

 

[Serenity7855]

Humanity is who I speak for.

No, you are speaking for yourself.

Just because something makes someone happy doesn't mean its good for them and society in general.

You just said that atheists have the key to happiness. So which one is it? Atheists or Christians.

By your logic, it would be mean to take a drug addicts drugs away from him and get him cleaned up.

Then you have completely misunderstood everything that I have said.

Clinging to false hope lulls people into a state of inaction. Theists can just drift off into a fantasy world that doesn't exist thinking "why bother when god will sort everything out". There is no god waiting in the wings to bail us out. We are the only ones capable of securing a better future for future generations. However, instead of actively doing this ourselves, people look to the heavens expecting a god that doesn't exist to do it for us.

You have it all wrong. You appear to be a failed Christian and are attacking those who made it in your anger.

 

[JustWondering]

Using an analogy is to use a Straw Man. He is alien to the argument and you have introduced him to dishonestly prove Him to be wrong, then you associated Hitler with God by saying that Because Hitler did it, and he is evil, then God must be evil and I must be evil to believe in God. What an odious comparison to make on a religious forum to compare a poster and his God to Hitler. I am sure but that must be against a rule somewhere. Haven't you got hostile all of a sudden? Did you see you setup falling through?

Why are you arguing about Job, you do not believe that God exists, so why try and ensnare me in your puerile traps. It is impossible for God to do anything that is immoral or He would cease to be God, just as you see Him now. It is a story with a principle. We do not know whether there was anyone called Job. I wasn't there so I don't know, however, God has included the story in the Old Testament in order to teach us righteous principles. You do not have to worry about it as you don't believe it so you haven't a clue where your headed or why. Christianity is no business of aggressive atheists who use subterfuge to prove that they are right when disproving God's existence it equally as hard as proving that he doesn't exist. Neither can be done..



Yes you did. You blatantly replaced God in my argument with Hitler and stood him up as a straw man ready to be knocked down. You then tried to knock him down by saying that if Hitler did it then God must be synonymous with Hitler. Then you accuse me of being like Hitler was in order to twist my point, which is a lie. You knocked the Straw Man down. No one would have even known it if I didn't pull you up on it because not many here know about logical fallacies, or poor reasoning.

I don't see any counter to my argument. God told satan to murder innocent people. So how is it moral when god orders someone murdered and it's immoral if Hitler does it? Please explain that one to me. Secondly, what righteous principle is being taught in the story of Job?

 

[JustWondering]

He does not have the power to prevent crime. He cannot intervene. Can you not comprehend that principle. If He went around acting like superman then there would be no trial of our faith. God didn't create hell, the sins of men did, that is if it even exists. Is it logic for an atheist to look at a God, that he does not believe exists, with critical eyes.

If god knows everything than trials are unnecessary in the first place. So your god knowing a person is going to "pass the test" before it even takes place, makes them suffer through it anyway. That is inflicting suffering. Your belief system makes no sense.

Man sins because he is not perfect. Who made us imperfect? Do you really think our creator doesn't share any blame?

 

[JustWondering]

How do you measure being least or more religious. What question were asked in the poll. What was the size of the specimen sample. This world is in the worst degradation of moral and social values that we have ever seen, and the culprits are atheists with no moral values. They cannot have what we have because they cannot live a Christian lifestyle, so they don't want us to have it either. I don't believe such a study exists, but prove me wrong, for what good it will do.

Page 20 of the 2016 happiness report (download from here: http://worldhappiness.report/ed/2016/ ) begins the list of happiest countries. Top four happiest countries are Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, and Norway.

List of the percentage of atheists in countries can be found here http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf Denmark and Norway are in the top 5 for having a high percentage of their population identifying as atheist and non-religious.

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/data/

No, your "understanding" of my religion is not supported by reality. But you do not know what I know because you are hostile and offensive to the children of God.

I was a Christian and am now an atheist. I've lived life from both sides. Were you ever an atheist?

And yet again you insult a people for their beliefs when you are an atheist who doesn't believe in anything. You are a marvellous ambassador for atheism.

I am attacking your arguments. Instead of playing the victim why don't you defend your position with rational arguments?

 

[JustWondering]

You need to read for comprehension. I said that it was their wickedness that brought a flood on them. I did not say that God sent the flood. It was cause and effect.

The bible says god sent the flood and god admits responsibility for it as well.

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.

So now I've given two examples from the bible that clearly shows God inflicts suffering. If you are honest you will concede.

 

[OurCreed]

Life is a test. Without ups and downs, without good and evil, then our purpose here is meaningless.

If you think there is no after life, then yes, you would be right into questioning God for why He created conscious creatures going through this suffering for no reason.

But if you believe there is an after life, then that answers the question. We humans are not created for this world! We are created for the next world, that is our home, not this place, earth. This is why everyone and everything dies. Nothing in this temporal universe lasts forever.

 

[JustWondering]

No it doesn't, you would like for it to.



If it messes with you head it is because you have allowed it to. Christianity is based on Good healthy principles that only promote righteousness when lived as it should be.



No, you cannot blame Christianity for the actions of men. Those people do not need religion to perform their atrocities.



No, we are all naturally bigots



Not to my knowledge it hasn't



Where. On the contrary, it encourages scientific progress. You are using standard atheist rhetoric.



Not for me it doesn't



If shame is felt then it is felt for a reason. The reason is down to those who are doing wrong and knowing they are doing wrong.



No, they doi not exist to you because you cannot go the distance. It is all about blame with you.

In summary to your retorts, there is ample historical evidence that shows beyond argument that religion has been used and continues to be used to justify all manner of violence and depravity. Religion is an excellent tool for this because the authority that is being invoked to justify their otherwise unjustifiable actions isn't present and able to protest, because it doesn't exist. If people didn't have invisible scape goats to blame their bigotry and hatred on they'd have to take responsibility for it themselves. If the religious right in America didn't have their god telling them to hate the LGBT community I wonder what excuse they'd use to justify their bigotry?

 

[JustWondering]

You just said that atheists have the key to happiness. So which one is it? Atheists or Christians.

My point was that worshipping your god is not necessary for success and happiness because your god doesn't exist. People can and do live happy, successful lives without your god and religion.

Then you have completely misunderstood everything that I have said.

I understood exactly what you meant. You didn't understand my point which is that it can be dangerous living in a fantasy world just because it makes you happy.

You have it all wrong. You appear to be a failed Christian and are attacking those who made it in your anger.

Personal attacks aren't going to win you a debate.

 

[JustWondering]

Life is a test. Without ups and downs, without good and evil, then our purpose here is meaningless.

If you think there is no after life, then yes, you would be right into questioning God for why He created conscious creatures going through this suffering for no reason.

But if you believe there is an after life, then that answers the question. We humans are not created for this world! We are created for the next world, that is our home, not this place, earth. This is why everyone and everything dies. Nothing in this temporal universe lasts forever.

If god is not all-knowing, has limits to what he can do, and is willing to break a few eggs to make his omelet then the existence of evil is easy to accept. However, the Abrahamic god is claimed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and a shining example of all that is good. That does not jive with evil existing.

 

[OurCreed]

If god is not all-knowing, has limits to what he can do, and is willing to break a few eggs to make his omelet then the existence of evil is easy to accept. However, the Abrahamic god is claimed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and a shining example of all that is good. That does not jive with evil existing.

Evil exists simply to test man. It doesn't exist in the overall universal perspective. Evil is just matter colliding with matter, nothing more. We define evil because we are rational and conscious enough to understand pain and misery, and from these emotions we conclude a certain thing to be of an evil nature. But in the overall perspective, evil doesn't really exist. But that's besides the point.

We humans are conscious and rational enough to point certain things to be evil. However, given this level is understanding, evil can also be subjective. Some people may think a certain action is evil, or even a certain feeling, and others won't. So there are different levels of evil which we ascribe to. Most humans agree causing physical/emotional pain is evil, so this would be in the higher levels of evil which is agreed by all, and there may be some lesser evils, (like doing drugs), which some may consider evil and others not. So this is in the lesser level, meaning that not all humans share the same opinions about it.

All in all, these feelings and states exist simply to test the conditions of human beings. Evil doesn't exist because God is unable to prevent it, is not powerful enough to stop it, is not wise enough to know it exists, or is not loving enough to remove it. This basic argument that atheists like to present simply doesn't work when we consider the fact that evil is just a test.

Those who conclude that this life is the only life, they will fall in error, because they cannot rationalize why a God would allow evil in the only life we are given. Yet, those who know there is a life after this one, then it will be relatively simple to understand why He allowed evil (this condition), to exist in the first place.

 

[JustWondering]

Evil exists simply to test man. It doesn't exist in the overall universal perspective. Evil is just matter colliding with matter, nothing more. We define evil because we are rational and conscious enough to understand pain and misery, and from these emotions we conclude a certain thing to be of an evil nature. But in the overall perspective, evil doesn't really exist. But that's besides the point.

We humans are conscious and rational enough to point certain things to be evil. However, given this level is understanding, evil can also be subjective. Some people may think a certain action is evil, or even a certain feeling, and others won't. So there are different levels of evil which we ascribe to. Most humans agree causing physical/emotional pain is evil, so this would be in the higher levels of evil which is agreed by all, and there may be some lesser evils, (like doing drugs), which some may consider evil and others not. So this is in the lesser level, meaning that not all humans share the same opinions about it.

All in all, these feelings and states exist simply to test the conditions of human beings. Evil doesn't exist because God is unable to prevent it, is not powerful enough to stop it, is not wise enough to know it exists, or is not loving enough to remove it. This basic argument that atheists like to present simply doesn't work when we consider the fact that evil is just a test.

Those who conclude that this life is the only life, they will fall in error, because they cannot rationalize why a God would allow evil in the only life we are given. Yet, those who know there is a life after this one, then it will be relatively simple to understand why He allowed evil (this condition), to exist in the first place.

Lets begin with the premise that god exists, is good, and has an afterlife for those who are deserving. The purpose of a test is to determine a result. So if god needs to test us then he is not all-knowing. If god is all-knowing he could just create the one's who would "pass" the test in his perfect afterlife with none of the messy suffering and related nonsense. If god knows who would be good but can't create them without putting them through the wringer first then he is not all-powerful. So do you think god is not all-knowing, or not all-powerful, or is he lacking in both knowledge and power?

 

[OurCreed]

Lets begin with the premise that god exists, is good, and has an afterlife for those who are deserving. The purpose of a test is to determine a result. So if god needs to test us then he is not all-knowing. If god is all-knowing he could just create the one's who would "pass" the test in his perfect afterlife with none of the messy suffering and related nonsense. If god knows who would be good but can't create them without putting them through the wringer first then he is not all-powerful. So do you think god is not all-knowing, or not all-powerful, or is he lacking in both knowledge and power?

The purpose of a test is to determine a result. So if god needs to test us then he is not all-knowing.

You assumed this, and I do not agree with your assumption.

Yes, the purpose of a test is to determine a result, but this result isn't for God, it is for us. God already knows where we will go. The purpose of our life in this world is for us, that when we die and enter the part of our lives where we will be judged, and our very own actions will be a witness to what we did.

This is so that if a person who ends up in hell won't say, "Why am I here?"

And that is so that no person in hell will wonder why they are there. They will know exactly why they are there. And for those in heaven will not say "Why am I here?" They will know exactly why they are in heaven. Every action is preserved.

So this test is not for God, it is for us. Whether we failed or not, it's not for God to know. God could place all humans in heaven or hell, and those in hell will be asking why they were in hell. So this life on earth is the witness to them why they were put in hell in the first place.

 

[JustWondering]

The purpose of a test is to determine a result. So if god needs to test us then he is not all-knowing.

You assumed this, and I do not agree with your assumption.

Yes, the purpose of a test is to determine a result, but this result isn't for God, it is for us. God already knows where we will go. The purpose of our life in this world is for us, that when we die and enter the part of our lives where we will be judged, and our very own actions will be a witness to what we did.

This is so that if a person who ends up in hell won't say, "Why am I here?"

And that is so that no person in hell will wonder why they are there. They will know exactly why they are there. And for those in heaven will not say "Why am I here?" They will know exactly why they are in heaven. Every action is preserved.

So this test is not for God, it is for us. Whether we failed or not, it's not for God to know. God could place all humans in heaven or hell, and those in hell will be asking why they were in hell. So this life on earth is the witness to them why they were put in hell in the first place.

The problem is that god could just create the good people who will enjoy heaven and not create any bad people. There would be no bad people wondering why they are being tortured by a "good" god. Why would a good god create people he knows beforehand he is going to torture for all eternity anyway? The only reason a truly good god would create good and bad people is if he was not all-knowing, not all-powerful, or lacking in both knowledge and power.

 

[OurCreed]

The problem is that god could just create the good people who will enjoy heaven and not create any bad people. There would be no bad people wondering why they are being tortured by a "good" god. Why would a good god create people he knows beforehand he is going to torture for all eternity anyway? The only reason a truly good god would create good and bad people is if he was not all-knowing, not all-powerful, or lacking in both knowledge and power.

Firstly, hell is not eternal. Let's get that out of the way.

Second, God doesn't punish anyone. People create their own hells. It's like a person who eats unhealthy food and does drugs while pregnant. They are basically asking for a stillborn child.

Third, the purpose of God creating creatures with free will, while we don't know the whole story, we know what has been revealed to us. We are created to worship God, and God is a being with certain attributes. God works by His attributes. God is the Creator, so He will create things. If God doesn't create, then that means He is not God.

So God doing all of these things is simply God being Himself. It is part of His nature to create. It is part of His nature to be just and merciful. So there will be good and evil where God enacts on His attributes. God cannot be just if there is nothing in the world that causes some injustice.

 

[JustWondering]

So God doing all of these things is simply God being Himself. It is part of His nature to create. It is part of His nature to be just and merciful. So there will be good and evil where God enacts on His attributes. God cannot be just if there is nothing in the world that causes some injustice.

So god wants to be a hero but can't if there isn't evil to smite. So he creates evil so he can say he's just. That's like a fireman proving how he protects a community from fires by setting fires people suffer from to put out. Your argument suggests god is not good or merciful since he creates suffering when there is no need for it.