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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Gimme a break. It burned for 9 hours, all throughout the daylight hours.

Yes, I know. Just 9 hours

Why are you shocked that a building that burned for 9 hours fell down?

I am not shocked because I know that it was it was brought down because I am familiar with the science that proves it. Oh, you should be shocked if you knew that other building of the same type of construction have been engulfed in fire for 24 hours and did not collapse. Building 7 fires were mere office fires and there was no structural damage sufficient enough to bring it down.

Both towers were hit by planes.

Yes, I know

You can build a building with all safety precautions in place and still something can go wrong. I'm not sure anyone could have anticipated what happened on 9/11. Nothing is 100% safe and secure, and nobody can predict every single scenario that might occur.

This is not the nineteenth century. When these experts say that it was built to take the impact of several planes then it was. That means that it should not have collapse through being hit by one plane each tower. If the shoe were on the other foot you would be insisting that the architects that designed the twin towers would not have got it wrong. They didn't. It was a controlled explosions that brought it down in its own foot print at nearly free fall speed. Scientifically proven, in fact all you need do is get the height of one tower and time the collapse to see for yourself.
Regardless, the point is, that everyone thought it was unsinkable. Just like you apparently thought the WTC should have been indestructible. Thinking something doesn't make it so, obviously.

People believed what they were told by the experts who are supposed to know. They knew but choose to say nothing. Thanks to science, today we know that it was not unsinkable so your analogy is flawed.

I did not think that the towers were indestructible. I am not that stupid, though I am sure that you will seize the opportunity to insult me. What I do no, because I have heard and seen the designers and architects explain it, is that it was built to take collisions from multiple planes. Those planes were not responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, George Bush and his cohorts were, and all those who knew and said nothing. Insider trading by unscrupulous demonic individuals made money at the expense of over 3000 innocent people and you deny them vindication by bringing the real culprits to justice.

You are right, thinking something doesn't make it so, obviously, however, listening to the experts does, and that is what I have done.[/QUOTE]
 
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I don't know what you are saying here. Are you asking if I am a Christian because my avatar says that I am a Christian but my beliefs do not reflect upon Christianity.

So you've created your own pseudo-Christianity religion.

No, the bible is not full of examples of God inflicting suffering on people. The Old testament is full of cause and effect situations where mankind has been told to shape up because they had become wicked. They refused and reaped the consequences. But the Old Testament is all about a people governed by the Mosaic Laws. The New Testament if when the Abrahamic Laws were introduced and you will not find the same cause and effect.

Wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job

I wouldn't call myself a Christian if I hadn't.

Are you sure we're talking about the same book?
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
So you've created your own pseudo-Christianity religion.

No, not a pseudo-Christianity, as my Avatar says, I am an "Individualist - that is, A Christian without a need for a congregation to follow"

You have condescendingly said "Wrong" and then given me a link about Job on Wikipedia. Why?

Are you sure we're talking about the same book?

You are being impertinent so I will not be answering that.[/QUOTE]
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes, I know. Just 9 hours
That's a long time.


I am not shocked because I know that it was it was brought down because I am familiar with the science that proves it. Oh, you should be shocked if you knew that other building of the same type of construction have been engulfed in fire for 24 hours and did not collapse. Building 7 fires were mere office fires and there was no structural damage sufficient enough to bring it down.
It seems you aren't all that familiar with the science that proves it, just like with the last conspiracy theory you wanted to sell me.

I still don't know why you think it's odd that a building that was on fire for 9 hours collapsed and fell down.

Yes, I know
Good, then why bother trying to say that the building was just "grazed" by the plane?

This is not the nineteenth century. When these experts say that it was built to take the impact of several planes then it was. That means that it should not have collapse through being hit by one plane each tower. If the shoe were on the other foot you would be insisting that the architects that designed the twin towers would not have got it wrong. They didn't. It was a controlled explosions that brought it down in its own foot print at nearly free fall speed. Scientifically proven, in fact all you need do is get the height of one tower and time the collapse to see for yourself.
So nothing ever goes wrong in the 20th/21st century? People can't be wrong. Come on now.

I would never argue that architects and builders (or anybody else for that matter) could never be wrong. I would never argue that human beings are capable for accounting for every single scenario that could possibly ever happen.


People believed what they were told by the experts who are supposed to know.
Right, like in this instance.

They knew but choose to say nothing. Thanks to science, today we know that it was not unsinkable so your analogy is flawed.
You've apparently completely missed the point.

People thought at the time that it was unsinkable. Just like how you apparently feel that the Twin Towers were built so perfectly that two commercial airliners couldn't destroy them.

I did not think that the towers were indestructible. I am not that stupid, though I am sure that you will seize the opportunity to insult me. What I do no, because I have heard and seen the designers and architects explain it, is that it was built to take collisions from multiple planes. Those planes were not responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, George Bush and his cohorts were, and all those who knew and said nothing. Insider trading by unscrupulous demonic individuals made money at the expense of over 3000 innocent people and you deny them vindication by bringing the real culprits to justice.

You are right, thinking something doesn't make it so, obviously, however, listening to the experts does, and that is what I have done.
Why make claims about insults when you haven't been insulted?

I've seen and heard architects say the opposite of what you're saying. So where does that leave us?

People hijacked planes and flew them into big tall towers which caught on fire and collapsed. The culprits are dead. Why is it so difficult to believe that planes hitting towers could cause their collapse?
How did all these people supposedly carry in and set up all these explosives all around the towers without anyone ever noticing anything strange? That's just for starters.
 
No, not a pseudo-Christianity, as my Avatar says, I am an "Individualist - that is, A Christian without a need for a congregation to follow"

What does that mean? How are you different?

You have condescendingly said "Wrong" and then given me a link about Job on Wikipedia. Why?

Because God had Job tortured just to stroke his own ego. He unleashed plagues on Egypt. He created disease, famine, and natural disasters. He created Hell. He sent his only son to be tortured and killed. That's why I am confused with how you say you read the bible and then claim god doesn't inflict suffering.

You are being impertinent so I will not be answering that.

Your claims are not supported by your own holy book, period. It really isn't something that can be argued.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That's a long time.

Not as long as 24 hours

It seems you aren't all that familiar with the science that proves it, just like with the last conspiracy theory you wanted to sell me.

Please, don't flatter yourself. I know better than to try to teach someone who already knows it all.

I am as familiar with the science as you or anyone else is, but I have no need to be as there are plenty of reputable scientist telling me that.

3832419694a712f0b3521feebb1a0eff.png

I still don't know why you think it's odd that a building that was on fire for 9 hours collapsed and fell down.

I do not think it is odd because I know that it was brought down by a controlled series of explosions because I am familiar with the science that proves it. Oh, you should be shocked if you knew that other building of the same type of construction have been engulfed in fire for 24 hours and did not collapse. Building 7 fires were mere office fires and there was no structural damage sufficient enough to bring it down.

Good, then why bother trying to say that the building was just "grazed" by the plane?

I didn't, that was a quote with a link.

So nothing ever goes wrong in the 20th/21st century? People can't be wrong. Come on now.

Yes, things go wrong, after all, George Bush was voted in a second time after being complicit in the killing of over 3000 innocent people. But in this case it went wrong twice, once for each tower that was both built to withstand a multiple impact by commercial planes. It still does not count for the speed of the collapse and the sounds of explosions as it fell, but most importantly, the thermite that was found in the dust of the twin towers and building 7. Why would you find thermite, that is used by demolition engineers, in a place like that?

I would never argue that architects and builders (or anybody else for that matter) could never be wrong. I would never argue that human beings are capable for accounting for every single scenario that could possibly ever happen.

Neither would I, however, 1,700 Architects & Engineers is good for me. This nonprofit organization represents more than 1,700 architects, engineers, and other technical experts – including Lynn Margulis, National Medal of Science winner – who are calling for a new scientific investigation into the destruction of all three WTC skyscrapers on 9/11.

Right, like in this instance.

Yes, people believe the government that they voted for. The NIST report have white washed half a nation, however, 146 million still have their heads screwed on.

You've apparently completely missed the point.

People thought at the time that it was unsinkable. Just like how you apparently feel that the Twin Towers were built so perfectly that two commercial airliners couldn't destroy them.

As I have said, a couple of times now, but you insist on repeating yourself, so I have to put you right, I have never said that I believe the Twin Towers to be built perfectly just built to withstand a strike by multiple airplane.

People thought at the time that it was unsinkable, however, that was in 1912. We are far more intellectually advance 104 years later. The comparison is very a poor one. The building’s chief engineer, John Skilling, had actually designed the whole thing to survive multiple impacts of 707’s at 600 mph, planes not much smaller than 757’s.

Why make claims about insults when you haven't been insulted?

You either need to have everything explained to you or you do it to wind me up. I did not say that you insulted me. I said "I am not that stupid, though I am sure that you will seize the opportunity to insult me." I made that judgement based on passed insults, but obviously by saying it, before you came back with an insult, stopped you from insulting me.

I've seen and heard architects say the opposite of what you're saying. So where does that leave us?

It leaves you backing the wrong horse and it leaves me continuing my support for the experts who have the truth about what happened on the 9th November 2001. It will all come out and you will kick yourself, along with millions of other blinker visions conformists will, however, by then another 911 will no doubt happen and you will think that there is smoke without fire when it comes to the authorities that govern us.
People hijacked planes and flew them into big tall towers which caught on fire and collapsed. The culprits are dead. Why is it so difficult to believe that planes hitting towers could cause their collapse?

No, they are not dead, Seven of them are alive and well living a wonderful life. Why, because they were never there.

Because it has never happened before and the building’s chief engineer, John Skilling, had actually designed the whole thing to survive multiple impacts of 707’s at 600 mph, planes not much smaller than 757’s

How did all these people supposedly carry in and set up all these explosives all around the towers without anyone ever noticing anything strange? That's just for starters.

The let me dismiss your starter and give you one back in the process. Larry Silverstein leases a nearly worthless dinosaur WTC building complex (worthless due to the asbestos the buildings were stuffed with and needed to be cleaned up, the cost of which may have rivaled the value of the buildings themselves) weeks before 9/11, makes sure it is over insured against terrorist acts and hires an Israeli security firm. From that moment on the coast is clear to let a team of demolition experts from the Israeli army led by Peer Segalovitz into the WTC buildings. These charges plus detonators had been prepared at the premises of the Urban Moving Systems company, a Mossad front. During the weeks before 9/11 these prepared charges were loaded into vans, driven into the basements of WTC Twin Towers next to the elevator shaft, unloaded into the elevator, and lifted onto the roof of the elevator through the opening in the elevator ceiling. Next the elevator moved from floor to floor while charges where being attached to the columns as displayed in this video from 0:22 onwards. The detonators of these charges were radiographic controlled and finally detonated from WTC7 on the day of 9/11.

Just for starters, can you answer this dilema. Amatuer pilots navagating large airliners with pin point accuracy.

In the days after 9/11, numerous pilots and aviation experts commented on the elaborate maneuvers performed by the aircraft in the terrorist attacks, and the advanced skills that would have been necessary to navigate those aircraft into their targets. The men flying the planes must have been "highly skilled pilots" and "extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators," who were "probably military trained," these experts said.

And yet the four alleged hijackers who were supposedly flying the aircraft were amateur pilots, who had learned to fly in small propeller planes, and were described by their instructors as having had only "average" or even "very poor" piloting skills. But on their first attempt at flying jet aircraft, on September 11, 2001, these men were supposedly able to fly Boeing 757s and 767s at altitudes of tens of thousands of feet, without any assistance from air traffic control. Three of them were apparently able to successfully navigate their planes all the way to the intended targets, which they hit with pinpoint accuracy.

For such poor pilots to carry out such skilled flying would surely have been extremely unlikely, perhaps impossible. And yet this is what is claimed in the official account of 9/11.

http://shoestring911.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/911-hijackers-amateur-aviators-who.html
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What does that mean? How are you different?

I do not know if I am different. I live a Christian lifestyle as best as I can. I try to keep the commandments. I worship God, and His son, Jesus Christ.

Because God had Job tortured just to stroke his own ego. He unleashed plagues on Egypt. He created disease, famine, and natural disasters. He created Hell. He sent his only son to be tortured and killed. That's why I am confused with how you say you read the bible and then claim god doesn't inflict suffering.

God did none of those things, men did. It was the consequences of their choices. When I read the bible I do so with the spirit of God and I do so without a critical mind so as to allow the spirit to dictate to my soul. To read it with a critical eye is the worst way to read it, you will never understand what is written there because you bind your eye with critical thoughts.

Your claims are not supported by your own holy book, period. It really isn't something that can be argued.

As an atheist I am sure that does not bother you or concern you as it is all a charade for you. My claims come from the bible I do not have the power that God has to make it all up as I go along.[/QUOTE]
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:
  • Receive a physical body.
  • Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
  • Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
  • Form family relationships that may become eternal.
  • To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.
Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

If God exists, this isn't a test of belief and faith. That would be just a gullibility test because what are we expected to believe? The hearsay of others! If God expects us to obedient to what It tells us, then God should tell us first hand. To doubt hearsay is completely reasonable, particularly with all the versions of it out there.

No, if God exists, this is an individual test of how we handle moral free will. Any other test could have been devised instantly, but the universe took 13 billion years, in order that God's existence (or non-existence) not be known to us, since that knowledge or even evidence for or against it would foul the test. That's why God can never intervene. This gift of free will is the most undervalued gift of all time. But few realize it because it just doesn't fit with their indoctrination--and atheism seems so bleak.

Every disaster, big or small, is a monument to God's commitment to maintaining our free will. Passing the test is certain knowledge of our own character for ourselves, and for God.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I do not appreciate the concept of a deity who places us here and allows us to go through hellish experiences as a mere test of our love for or faith in him. I don't recall consenting to it. It's like signing a contract while you're drugged up and don't remember it at all. Would you view that as ethical to hold a person to that? It just comes off as cruel. Pain and suffering are not illusions. They are very real things that cause lasting damage throughout our lives. We are not toys. He's the one who came up with this plan of salvation, he could've done whatever he wanted. But he chose to make it extremely hard and to distance himself from his creatures. That's not how a loving parent acts. If a human parent did that, they'd get in trouble with the law. Too bad we don't have such standards for deities.

Hey, Saint Frankenstein, hope you are well, my friend!

The situation that society is in, with all the badness around, was not God's purpose. Adam and Eve, when they were created, were given everything they needed for a happy life. But all of God's children, even tho perfect (including the Angels), were endowed with free will (the ability to choose to do right or wrong), and one of them decided to turn against God, although he himself had all he needed for a happy life, too. But, focusing his thoughts on a wrong desire, he became selfish and wanted more.....he wanted sovereignty for himself, and got others to rebel, too, raising issues that only time could settle. Genesis 3 tells us about his devious nature that he developed, using a snake to disguise himself, and misquoting God and lying.

You might find this interesting to reason on:
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010046#h=12:0-21:557
The paragraphs before, are great, too.

If you have questions, please ask me. Take care.
 
God did none of those things, men did. It was the consequences of their choices. When I read the bible I do so with the spirit of God and I do so without a critical mind so as to allow the spirit to dictate to my soul. To read it with a critical eye is the worst way to read it, you will never understand what is written there because you bind your eye with critical thoughts.

Yes, I use critical thinking and in the story of Job, god literally tells satan to torture and torment Job. There are literally billions of people who defy your god and his commandments every day who don't suffer from disease, famine, or any other calamity. I'm sure you'll say something to the effect that god will get them by throwing them into hell or something. Whenever some disaster happens, there is religious people proclaiming that it was punishment from god for this or that perceived infraction. It's one belief system of MANY created by ancient men in superstitious times to try filling in the gaps of their knowledge of the world and give them comfort in bad times. We don't need this superstitious stuff anymore.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Yes, I use critical thinking and in the story of Job, god literally tells satan to torture and torment Job.

Then the LORD said to Satan,"Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Job's afflictions began from the malice of Satan, by the Lord's permission, for wise and holy purposes. What is evident is that neither God or Jesus caused them any suffering. It was all down to Satan.

There are literally billions of people who defy your god and his commandments every day who don't suffer from disease, famine, or any other calamity.

How do you know that? People are not usually that forthcoming in divulging their burdens in life. But that is not how God works anyway. There is no set price to sin. It is cause and effect. A universal law that plays out whenever an individual gives cause for a consequence. It works whether you are religious or atheist. Murders never get away with murder, thief never really get to enjoy their spoils and porno stars rarely have a happy family lifestyle. I have seen it working in my life and in the lives of those who I associate with. It always happens. Nobody gets away with it.

I'm sure you'll say something to the effect that god will get them by throwing them into hell or something
.

Then you misjudge me as I know that God cannot inflict pain and suffering on His Children and it is not God who takes them to hell, it is the individual who does that, all on his own.
Whenever some disaster happens, there is religious people proclaiming that it was punishment from god for this or that perceived infraction.

And atheists will do the exact opposite. It is human nature for some to automatically blame some wrong doing onto sinners. Having said that, it is true, it is a consequence of some action perpetrated by man. Just like the story of the flood in the Old Testament when people became so wicked that they evoked a terrible flood upon themselves intended to cleanse the earth. Cause and effect. A universal law that spans both natural and supernatural events.

It's one belief system of MANY created by ancient men in superstitious times to try filling in the gaps of their knowledge of the world and give them comfort in bad times.

I would say that it is a good thing to be comforted and not something that you want to abolish. If good comes from believing in God the who cares if it turns out to be completely wrong. There will be no after life in which to care whether you were wrong or right. If that is true then I, for one, am grateful to those ancient men in superstitious times.
We don't need this superstitious stuff anymore.

Who do you speak for when you say "We don't need this superstitious stuff any more" You can only really speak for yourself. I need it. Most of my family, both extended and immediate, need it, friend and associates of mine need it. Probably many who you think don't need it, really do. At the end of they day why do you want to prevent others from taking comfort in a myth? Why would you want to remove a source of happiness in others lives?
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
If God exists, this isn't a test of belief and faith. That would be just a gullibility test because what are we expected to believe? The hearsay of others! If God expects us to obedient to what It tells us, then God should tell us first hand. To doubt hearsay is completely reasonable, particularly with all the versions of it out there.

Gullibility is just one part of the test. If God told you first hand then there could be no trail of your faith. You would know that He exists and just comply.

No, if God exists, this is an individual test of how we handle moral free will.

That is true

Any other test could have been devised instantly, but the universe took 13 billion years, in order that God's existence (or non-existence) not be known to us, since that knowledge or even evidence for or against it would foul the test.

Again, that is true, as for why it took 13 billion years is a mystery to us right now. It is all down to our perception of time. Because we only live, on average, three score and ten years, a billion years is an incredibly long time.

That's why God can never intervene. This gift of free will is the most undervalued gift of all time. But few realize it because it just doesn't fit with their indoctrination--and atheism seems so bleak.

Yes, absolutely. It is just a process of deductive reasoning isn't it. Once you get a few puzzle pieces connected the rest seem to fall in place.

Every disaster, big or small, is a monument to God's commitment to maintaining our free will. Passing the test is certain knowledge of our own character for ourselves, and for God.

I agree again. You sound like a very astute Christians who needs an epiphany just to solidify your faith. I am sure that you will get one soon.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Then the LORD said to Satan,"Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Job's afflictions began from the malice of Satan, by the Lord's permission, for wise and holy purposes. What is evident is that neither God or Jesus caused them any suffering. It was all down to Satan.



How do you know that? People are not usually that forthcoming in divulging their burdens in life. But that is not how God works anyway. There is no set price to sin. It is cause and effect. A universal law that plays out whenever an individual gives cause for a consequence. It works whether you are religious or atheist. Murders never get away with murder, thief never really get to enjoy their spoils and porno stars rarely have a happy family lifestyle. I have seen it working in my life and in the lives of those who I associate with. It always happens. Nobody gets away with it.

.

Then you misjudge me as I know that God cannot inflict pain and suffering on His Children and it is not God who takes them to hell, it is the individual who does that, all on his own.


And atheists will do the exact opposite. It is human nature for some to automatically blame some wrong doing onto sinners. Having said that, it is true, it is a consequence of some action perpetrated by man. Just like the story of the flood in the Old Testament when people became so wicked that they evoked a terrible flood upon themselves intended to cleanse the earth. Cause and effect. A universal law that spans both natural and supernatural events.



I would say that it is a good thing to be comforted and not something that you want to abolish. If good comes from believing in God the who cares if it turns out to be completely wrong. There will be no after life in which to care whether you were wrong or right. If that is true then I, for one, am grateful to those ancient men in superstitious times.


Who do you speak for when you say "We don't need this superstitious stuff any more" You can only really speak for yourself. I need it. Most of my family, both extended and immediate, need it, friend and associates of mine need it. Probably many who you think don't need it, really do. At the end of they day why do you want to prevent others from taking comfort in a myth? Why would you want to remove a source of happiness in others lives?

Then the LORD said to Satan,"Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Job's afflictions began from the malice of Satan, by the Lord's permission, for wise and holy purposes. What is evident is that neither God or Jesus caused them any suffering. It was all down to Satan.

That's like saying that a person who creates a pedophile and then lets a pedophile do whatever disgusting thing they want to do to a child isn't responsible for the suffering that the child experiences. That original person didn't cause any suffering directly, so by your logic the pedophile enabler in this case is totally in the clear! Your logic is morally repugnant.

How do you know that? People are not usually that forthcoming in divulging their burdens in life. But that is not how God works anyway. There is no set price to sin. It is cause and effect. A universal law that plays out whenever an individual gives cause for a consequence. It works whether you are religious or atheist. Murders never get away with murder, thief never really get to enjoy their spoils and porno stars rarely have a happy family lifestyle. I have seen it working in my life and in the lives of those who I associate with. It always happens. Nobody gets away with it.

Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you've seen in your life--plenty of people have gotten away with theft, murder, rape, and so on. Even worse, other people who haven't been responsible take the fall for those people who get away with it. There is no such thing as karmic retribution.

And there are porn stars with happy families, or porn stars that did porn and then stopped after a while. Do you know every porn star? Do you know every person who's committed a crime? How can you make such large assertions?

Then you misjudge me as I know that God cannot inflict pain and suffering on His Children and it is not God who takes them to hell, it is the individual who does that, all on his own.

How do you KNOW God cannot inflict pain? Why are you telling God what he can and cannot do? God has certainly inflicted pain--any innocent toddler that died of leukemia could tell you they suffered horribly. God's actions are directly reponsible for those toddler's pointless suffering. Furthermore nobody would ever choose to go to hell. That's completely illogical; the fact that God could just obliterate people instead of sending them to hell shows that God does in fact send them to hell. Finally, there's no evidence hell exists.

Who do you speak for when you say "We don't need this superstitious stuff any more" You can only really speak for yourself. I need it. Most of my family, both extended and immediate, need it, friend and associates of mine need it. Probably many who you think don't need it, really do. At the end of they day why do you want to prevent others from taking comfort in a myth? Why would you want to remove a source of happiness in others lives

So you need the magic voodoo stuff in order to live your life? That's what's called a crutch. Not saying you're mentally ill or anything, but society generally tries to help schizophrenics get over their delusions, for example. Delusions are unhealthy and lead to irrational actions. Some of those delusions also lead to things like Christians fighting against evolution education, or Islamic fundamentalists bombing a hospital, or many other unfortunate outcomes. Admitting reality is important for human beings. The world would be a very bad place if everyone just lived in a fantasy that made them feel better. A good example of this is science--science gives us the best approximation of reality that we could hope to achieve. Science has brought humanity innumerable benefits, so clearly facing reality is very important.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I have a reasonable level of education, especially on this issue.

I'm a civil engineer myself. I've had formal education in metallurgy, structural steel design, and building science. In fact, my steel design prof worked on the design of the World Trade Center as a young engineer before becoming a professor and a forensic engineer.

In his class right after the attack, he set aside his scheduled lecture for the day and gave his assessment of what he thought probably happened. The NIST report ended up agreeing what he told us from personal knowledge of the building design and his experience as an engineer.

BTW: the fact that you would spout false claims about fire temperature and say "melting point" instead of "eutectoid temperature" (since steel loses strength and rigidity long before it becomes liquid) suggests to me that you aren't as informed and educated on this topic as you probably think you are.

You don't have the first clue about what I know about the World Trade Center attack and collapse, but you automatically assume that my positionis uninformed? Who's being closed-minded?

I don't automatically reject conspiracy theories. When it comes to 9/11, I came to the conclusion that the "Truther" position is ridiculous after thorough, careful examination.
A couple things here. 1. Thank you for pointing out, in such lovely detail, the truth. I simply cannot believe people still buy into the ridiculous theories that circulated about that day. 2. I love that you taught me something new. I was not familiar with eutecloid temperatures and my sister, who I will ask about this later, is a structural engineer. Very nice and educational post Penguin.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
So you need the magic voodoo stuff in order to live your life? That's what's called a crutch. Not saying you're mentally ill or anything, but society generally tries to help schizophrenics get over their delusions, for example. Delusions are unhealthy and lead to irrational actions. Some of those delusions also lead to things like Christians fighting against evolution education, or Islamic fundamentalists bombing a hospital, or many other unfortunate outcomes. Admitting reality is important for human beings. The world would be a very bad place if everyone just lived in a fantasy that made them feel better. A good example of this is science--science gives us the best approximation of reality that we could hope to achieve. Science has brought humanity innumerable benefits, so clearly facing reality is very important.

I agree that science has been beyond beneficial but I would also say that believing in God is not delusional, particularly if that belief gives someone dying solace. I cannot tell you how many elders I have had the pleasure of being with when they were close to passing that had that belief and were comforted by it. What is wrong with that?
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That's like saying that a person who creates a pedophile and then lets a pedophile do whatever disgusting thing they want to do to a child isn't responsible for the suffering that the child experiences. That original person didn't cause any suffering directly, so by your logic the pedophile enabler in this case is totally in the clear! Your logic is morally repugnant.

You are setting up a straw man. It is logically fallacious. Sadly, your straw man could have been someone a little less repugnant. You say by my logic, but it is not, is it. It is you who introduced a pedophile, not me. It is your fallacious straw man.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you've seen in your life--plenty of people have gotten away with theft, murder, rape, and so on. Even worse, other people who haven't been responsible take the fall for those people who get away with it. There is no such thing as karmic retribution.

You are using anecdotal evidence. You do not know whether or not those people got away with it. You do not know what happened in their private life. Your statement is completely suppositional and speculative. There is no such thing as Karma in your life, judging by the anger you are displaying here.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
And there are porn stars with happy families, or porn stars that did porn and then stopped after a while. Do you know every porn star? Do you know every person who's committed a crime? How can you make such large assertions?

Do you? How can you make such a large assertion. My own experience gives me an insight into it.
 
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