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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
How do you KNOW God cannot inflict pain? Why are you telling God what he can and cannot do?

I am not telling God what he can and cannot do. I am using objective reasoning to come to a reasonable conclusion. God is perfect. Everything about Him is perfect. If He were to inflict pane on someone, or even think about it, then that would be an immorality which would instantly make Him imperfect and no longer a God. It is basic deductive reasoning linked to a sound knowledge of scriptures..

God has certainly inflicted pain--any innocent toddler that died of leukemia could tell you they suffered horribly. God's actions are directly reponsible for those toddler's pointless suffering.

Right, so now you say that God gives little children leukemia. It has nothing to do with it being hereditary or the result of a weakening gene pool. It is God's fault. Where on earth did you come up with such an illogical conclusion. So who does an atheist blame? Or is it just atheists who blame God, a deity that they do not believe exists. I cannot see a devout Christian blaming God, they usually have a little more intelligence than that.

Furthermore nobody would ever choose to go to hell. That's completely illogical; the fact that God could just obliterate people instead of sending them to hell shows that God does in fact send them to hell. Finally, there's no evidence hell exists.

No, people do not choose to go to hell it is their bad choices that sends them their. There is no evidence that Hell exists, however, by the same logic, there is no evidence that it does not exist either. Personally I do not think that it exists in the way that we think it does, again, concluded by basic deductive reasoning.

No, God could not obliterate anyone. It just takes a little lateral thought to ascertain that God is incapable of doing that as He is perfect. Even the very thought of it could not be permitted to enter Gods consciousness.

Perhaps if you post to me again you might think about being a little less hostile.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Gullibility is just one part of the test. If God told you first hand then there could be no trail of your faith. You would know that He exists and just comply.

Not necessarily, some people are just stupid. But the main problem is that neither you nor God would know what you'd do if you didn't have such influence. Again, you discount the life-giving value of free will.

Again, that is true, as for why it took 13 billion years is a mystery to us right now. It is all down to our perception of time. Because we only live, on average, three score and ten years, a billion years is an incredibly long time.

Exactly, and it's for a reason. It's not the specific amount of time, but that it's such a vast amount of time that's so removed from the point of creation, and without any evidence from before it for or against the existence of God, that we can reasonably just ignore it. There's nothing we can do.

I often think that the lack of evidence either way is so perfectly absent, that that perfection is itself evidence for God. But I have to remind myself that a lack of evidence is not evidence. Then I get the feeling like when you're looking at an infinite reflections of yourself in a mirror, that God is winking at you. I am reassured where there can be no reassurance.

Yes, absolutely. It is just a process of deductive reasoning isn't it. Once you get a few puzzle pieces connected the rest seem to fall in place.

I use that analogy all the time myself--only I usually add that they seem to start falling into place of their own accord. But of course the puzzle is infinite, and the falling into place is cyclical and needs help to keep progressing.

I agree again. You sound like a very astute Christians who needs an epiphany just to solidify your faith. I am sure that you will get one soon.

I had my epiphany, of sorts. When I left Christianity, the first thing I gave up was prayer. God (if It exists) knows my thoughts, and can't intervene anyway. But it was decades before I finally had to admit to myself that prophesy, fate or an overall providence were all holdovers from my Christian upbringing. Those monuments to God's commitment to It's own Prime Directive against intervention would even have to include major holocausts like the Sun going nova, and the like. Free will is that important. And whether we have one minute or a hundred years, from the vantage point of a timeless eternity, it's but a blink.

I agree that science has been beyond beneficial but I would also say that believing in God is not delusional, particularly if that belief gives someone dying solace. I cannot tell you how many elders I have had the pleasure of being with when they were close to passing that had that belief and were comforted by it. What is wrong with that?

If they just happened upon it on death's door, nothing I guess. But normally, it means that they would have spent most of their lives pursuing and supporting a lie. But still, how you lived your life has to give you considerable reassurance. That lie only contributes to your angst. I say only.....
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Then you've been reading things put forward by charlatans. It's an important concept because it makes it clear that you've been sold a bill of goods.

2,528 Architects and structural engineer cannot all be charlatans, besides, do you accuse everyone who does not have the same opinions as yours a charlatan. Because you see things differently I have been sold a bill of goods. There is no way that you could be wrong?

The eutectoid temperature of steel (723 C for plain carbon steel) is the temperature at which its crystal structure breaks down and re-forms. This is accompanied by a significant loss in strength. It's not the melting point, but it's the point when steel becomes weak and floppy; think licorice: not liquid, but not strong or rigid... like we need our buildings to be.

On April 3rd Chechnya’s tallest building, a luxury hotel, caught fire and burned for 29 hours before finally being put out. The building is completely destroyed, however it did not collapse. This raises many questions as to how World Trade Center 7 could have collapsed on 9/11 with only small fires on a couple of floors.

Looking at the photo taken of yesterdays blaze and comparing it to the WTC 7 photo taken on 9/11, we see two very different situations. In one we see a large portion of the building on fire and the fire appears to have been burning for some time. In another, we see almost no fire at all. Yet the building with little to no fire collapsed at free fall speed into its own footprint in just 7 hours. The 29 hour blaze of Chechnya’s building left the building still standing. This should raise some interesting questions as to why WTC 7 collapsed so quickly, or even why it collapsed at all.

chechnya-300x199.jpg
wtc7-300x240.jpeg



It might be, but I stopped short of calling it a lie because I'm open to the possibility that you've been misinformed.

Or, perhaps you have been mis-informed, or just don't know.

Any time you see a table in a textbook or the like about the temperature of a burning substance, it's in open air. In a closed environment, if you have something burning, there's no theoretical limit to the temperature that can be achieved by burning ANY combustible substance.

Why was there thermite found in the dust of the Twin Towers? Thermite is used by demolition engineers. Why was there molten metal at ground zero weeks after the collapse. Could it be that thermite was used to cut through the columns of steel.

As long as the fire is emitting energy into the space, if the amount of energy going into the space from the fire is less than the amount of energy dissipating from the space, the temperature will increase. Where the equilibrium point will be depends on the characteristics of the space: things like its size, shape, wall reflectivity, conductivity, ventilation, etc.

How did a few office fires bring down a 47 story building into its own footprint at freefall speed,

Twin Tower Fires Not Hot Enough to Melt or Weaken Steel! Fire Could Not Have Brought Down Towers!


There is no magic single value for the maximum temperature of a fire under real-world conditions.

... so that's why your claim was false. If you don't want to be accused of spouting false claims in the future, then make the effort to fact-check what you say before you say it.

No, I do not mined being told that I might be wrong, I resent being told that I am spouting false claims, especially when those claims are from real experts in the field and not just a civil engineer. I do not like it because it is bad mannered and unnecessary so is intended to insult me. That is wrong.

I don't really care if you feel insulted.

No, That is understandable, that is what comes of being an atheist. They do not have the same morals as a Christian. We care who we hurt with our words.

I'm more interested in correcting your misinformation for the benefit of others reading this thread than protecting your feelings.

But you are not doing that, you are misinforming them by what you are saying. Aside from the melting steel there was the design of the building. It was like poking a pencil through a mosquito net. It would not effect the surrounding net or weaken it. You also forget about all the other anomalies surrounding the destruction of three buildings. But you analysis is without validation and judging by what you have said, you probably just have a general knowledge of metallurgy and structural engineering. You certainly do not have the same qualifications and knowledge as do the 2,548 Architects and structural engineers who fervently disagree with your analysis. So much so that they have set up non-profit making groups to try and get another investigation into 911.

Group set up to expose the truth of 911 and oppose the debunkers

List of Experts who question the 911 attack
  • 220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
  • 2,548+ Engineers and Architects
  • 250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
  • 400+ Professors Question 9/11
  • 300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
  • 200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
  • 400+ Medical Professionals
http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Why on Earth would you think I persecute Christians?

Because you are here, on a religious forum. saying things like "If God exists ....." Why would someone who does not believe in God be doing on a forum where the members are those who believe in God. To compliment them and congratulate them on being so righteous. But it was not a serious remark.

And I know I'm not going to change your mind on 9/11. I have no way to force you to educate yourself about this topic (and wouldn't want to force you even if I did). My aim here is to make it clear to everyone else that you've been duped and to make sure that your voice isn't the only one they hear.

I have no need to defend my level of education, It should speak for itself. Anyone can change my mind on 911 just by showing me credible evidence or by answering questions that they refuse to answer. Like where did 2.3 trillion dollars disappear to. Where did the two lorries that were full of gold bullion in the basement of the Twin Towers disappear to. Where did the wings and engines of the plane that hit the pentagon disappear to, Why do we only have video from one camera at the pentagon when there is some 80 cameras, all confiscated by the FBI and have never been seen since. Even the video that we do have are missing frames, removed without explanations. but most importantly because it has a peer reviewed paper published to verify the findings, why was there thermite in the dust of the Twin Towers and Building 7. and so on and so on. You do not have to be a civil engineer to be able to deduce what happened at 911.

If you decide to listen to reason, great, but I'll settle for having everyone else recognize your claims for what they really are.

OK how about you email these guys at their offices. They all agree with me, or I agree with them. I am but a messenger who is spreading the truth about 911

http://www.ae911truth.org/27-home/carousel/91-carousel-3-pellentesque-habitant-morbi.html

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth Mission,


OUR MISSION: RESEARCH, COMPILE, AND DISSEMINATE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL 3 WORLD TRADE CENTER SKYSCRAPERS



 
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JoStories

Well-Known Member
I had my epiphany, of sorts. When I left Christianity, the first thing I gave up was prayer. God (if It exists) knows my thoughts, and can't intervene anyway. But it was decades before I finally had to admit to myself that prophesy, fate or an overall providence were all holdovers from my Christian upbringing. Those monuments to God's commitment to It's own Prime Directive against intervention would even have to include major holocausts like the Sun going nova, and the like. Free will is that important. And whether we have one minute or a hundred years, from the vantage point of a timeless eternity, it's but a blink.

I have to respectfully disagree with you about prayer. Some years ago, I had what I thought was a PE...pulmonary emboli. I was rushed to the ER and had a scan, etc, and instead of a PE was told I had a mass on my right upper lung lobe. I was subsequently bronched and had a biopsy which showed small call carcinoma. I was devastated, needless to say and a friend recommended I return to my reservation and have a sing (I am NA). So I did that and when I returned for more treatment, and this was just a couple of weeks later, the mass was gone. A sing is very similar to prayer, in NA style. And as a nurse, I had a patient in the ICU who crashed. The doc asked for a water caloric test, which is a test to see if a patient is brain dead. He failed the test, this patient, meaning he was clinically dead. We called his priest while his daughter sat crying and praying at the bedside. Half an hour later, that man sat up and asked for waffles. The doc was floored and had tears in his eyes. There was no explanation for either situation. I am not saying that it would not be possible to find one. I am, after all, scientifically educated and have done more than my share of double blind studies, but these two cases gave me serious pause and they still do.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
2,528 Architects and structural engineer cannot all be charlatans, besides, do you accuse everyone who does not have the same opinions as yours a charlatan.
No, not everyone. I don't use the term lightly.

I also don't think that you actually got your info from the "2458+ architects and engineers" you keep on citing.

BTW: I haven't been able to find their list of "architects and engineers" on the AETruth web site since they changed the site layout, I remember that when they had it public before, a lot of the "architects" were landscape architects and a lot of the "engineers" were people with computer engineering degrees. Nothing against either profession, but professional garden designers and programmers don't necessarily know anything more about structural design or fire protection engineering than I know about garden design or programming.

Because you see things differently I have been sold a bill of goods. There is no way that you could be wrong?
Not because we see things differently; because I know what I'm talking about. The people you're relying on are either lying to you or were duped thenselves.

On April 3rd Chechnya’s tallest building, a luxury hotel, caught fire and burned for 29 hours before finally being put out. The building is completely destroyed, however it did not collapse. This raises many questions as to how World Trade Center 7 could have collapsed on 9/11 with only small fires on a couple of floors.
I wouldn't call the WTC fires "small", but regardless: you seem to be insinuating that because the building are similar, they should have had similar performance. Well, were they similar? The way the floor trusses were connected to the building frame was critical the WTC collapse, but it isn't the only way to do things... and in fact fell out of favour in the era following the construction of the WTC as people started to recognize its disadvantages.

So... tell me about the construction of this building in Chechnya and why you consider its structure no more robust than that of the WTC.

Looking at the photo taken of yesterdays blaze and comparing it to the WTC 7 photo taken on 9/11, we see two very different situations. In one we see a large portion of the building on fire and the fire appears to have been burning for some time. In another, we see almost no fire at all. Yet the building with little to no fire collapsed at free fall speed into its own footprint in just 7 hours. The 29 hour blaze of Chechnya’s building left the building still standing. This should raise some interesting questions as to why WTC 7 collapsed so quickly, or even why it collapsed at all.
I find the new Truther focus on Building 7 to be interesting. It's like you've all conceded that you've conceded that WTC 1 and 2 really were taken down by airliners, but you've doubled down on this other building next door that you insist was a controlled demolition... that just happened to be perfectly coordinated with the airliner impacts and subsequent collapses.

It reminds me a lot of how creationists keep on redefining the limits of "microevolution".

No, I do not mined being told that I might be wrong, I resent being told that I am spouting false claims, especially when those claims are from real experts in the field and not just a civil engineer. I do not like it because it is bad mannered and unnecessary so is intended to insult me. That is wrong.
Well, then resent away. Hopefully your anger will motivate you to prove me wrong with sone legitimate sources, and in the process, you'll realize where you went wrong.

No, That is understandable, that is what comes of being an atheist. They do not have the same morals as a Christian. We care who we hurt with our words.
No, you don't. If you did, you would be more responsible with your claims of fact.

But you are not doing that, you are misinforming them by what you are saying. Aside from the melting steel there was the design of the building. It was like poking a pencil through a mosquito net. It would not effect the surrounding net or weaken it.
The issue wasn't with the outer tube structure of the building; the issue was with the way the floors connected to the outer tube and the building core.

I thought you said you read the NIST report. You should know this already.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I have to respectfully disagree with you about prayer. Some years ago, I had what I thought was a PE...pulmonary emboli. I was rushed to the ER and had a scan, etc, and instead of a PE was told I had a mass on my right upper lung lobe. I was subsequently bronched and had a biopsy which showed small call carcinoma. I was devastated, needless to say and a friend recommended I return to my reservation and have a sing (I am NA). So I did that and when I returned for more treatment, and this was just a couple of weeks later, the mass was gone. A sing is very similar to prayer, in NA style. And as a nurse, I had a patient in the ICU who crashed. The doc asked for a water caloric test, which is a test to see if a patient is brain dead. He failed the test, this patient, meaning he was clinically dead. We called his priest while his daughter sat crying and praying at the bedside. Half an hour later, that man sat up and asked for waffles. The doc was floored and had tears in his eyes. There was no explanation for either situation. I am not saying that it would not be possible to find one. I am, after all, scientifically educated and have done more than my share of double blind studies, but these two cases gave me serious pause and they still do.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I find the new Truther focus on Building 7 to be interesting. It's like you've all conceded that you've conceded that WTC 1 and 2 really were taken down by airliners, but you've doubled down on this other building next door that you insist was a controlled demolition... that just happened to be perfectly coordinated with the airliner impacts and subsequent collapses.

Why was there thermite in the dust of the Twin Towers and Building 7? Thermite is used by demolition engineers, many of which have said that all three building were brought down by controlled explosions. But that is another question that has been asked with no answer. Building 7 was not next door to the Twin Towers. The buildings that were next door, and took the brunt of the controlled collapse, did not collapse. They were not brought down because they did not contain information about the corruption they revelled in. The World Trade Center complex included buildings 3, 4, 5, and 6. Compared to Building 7, all of these buildings were severely damaged, first by falling rubble from the tower collapses, then by fires that burned for hours. Although these buildings were in critical condition, none of them collapsed. Building 7 was in fact behind the others.

wtc-building-7-map.jpg


Not because we see things differently; because I know what I'm talking about. The people you're relying on are either lying to you or were duped thenselves.

So, rather then it being you who is wrong it is thousands of respected professional who are liars. How can you be duped into finding thermite in all three buildings dust. How do you make a whole airplane disappear, with passengers as well, without a spot of blood anywhere or a single body part. How do you make another airplane disappear into the ground showing absolutely no parts of the plane or the passengers. Not even a suitcase. How is it possible for four novice pilots to fly huge commercial airliners in these targets without any help? How is it possible for three buildings to collapse ate free fall speed, into it's own footprint, at free fall speed without using explosives to remove the resistance. You think you know what you are talking about, however, in reality, you don't. You think that thousands of professionals are either lying or have been duped, but in reality it is then who know what they are talking about.

I wouldn't call the WTC fires "small", but regardless: you seem to be insinuating that because the building are similar, they should have had similar performance. Well, were they similar? The way the floor trusses were connected to the building frame was critical the WTC collapse, but it isn't the only way to do things... and in fact fell out of favour in the era following the construction of the WTC as people started to recognize its disadvantages.

The issue wasn't with the outer tube structure of the building; the issue was with the way the floors connected to the outer tube and the building core.

The inner, supporting structure of the towers consisted of 47 interlocking box columns, heavy-duty 2″ thick steel beams sheathed in cement, bolted and welded together. The 9/11 Commission completely fails to describe this at all. It’s highly unbelievable that a jet made up of mostly aluminum alloy metals could have created the damage they say, especially since much of the energy was expended just punching through the outer steel surface.

But what about the presents of thermite in the dust of all three buildings. What about the peer reviewed published paper that confirms there was thermite in the dust. How do you intend to move a goal post to facilitate this huge thorn in the side of those who set up 911. Why was a substance used uniquely by demolition engineers found in the dust of the three buildings? The implications of the discovery of unspent aluminothermic explosives and matching residues in World Trade Center dust are staggering. There is no conceivable reason for there to have been tons of high explosives in the Towers except to demolish them, and demolition is blatantly incompatible with the official 9/11 narrative that the skyscrapers collapsed as a result of the jetliner impacts and fires.

The discovery of active thermitic materials adds to a vast body of evidence that the total destruction of the Towers were controlled demolitions, and to the subset of that evidence indicating the use of aluminothermic materials to implement those demolitions.

That discovery also undermines the oft-heard claim that no explosives residues were found, a claim that was never compelling, given the apparent lack of evidence that any official agency looked for evidence of explosive residues of any kind. Worse, the public record shows that NIST not only failed to look for such evidence, it repeatedly evaded requests by scientists and researchers to examine numerous facts indicating explosives and incendiaries .

Well, then resent away. Hopefully your anger will motivate you to prove me wrong with sone legitimate sources, and in the process, you'll realize where you went wrong.

I am not angry. I don't get angry. I have already proved you wrong by your singular interest being the malleability of the steel at certain temperatures, where I have shown a multiplicity of discrepancies that need to be addressed. To say I went wrong is to say that the 2,548 Architects and engineers got it wrong, that 220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials got it wrong, that 250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals all got it wrong, that 400+ Professors Question 9/11 got it wrong. that 300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members all got it wrong, that 200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals got it wrong and that 400+ Medical Professionals got it wrong, and that nearly half of the population of the USA all got it wrong and you, a civil engineer, got it right.

The government wants you to believe: That 19 men, divided into four groups, not armed with guns or explosives, but with mere simple box-cutters, were able to bypass security at three major airports, overwhelm the crew and passengers of four airplanes despite being greatly outnumbered, fly the planes with little or no piloting skills, easily defeating well structured long standing U.S. air defense systems, skillfully steering three of the mammoth jetliners unabated into their designated targets, crumbling the twin towers in a near free fall fashion into their own footprints in ten seconds or less, while also striking the Pentagon, the most secure structure within the most guarded airspace in the entire world, which wassomehow left undefended, even after declaring that America was already under attack over half an hour :)34 minutes), before it was hit by a plane that had its transponder off for :41 minutes! There was no intercept of that obvious hijack, nor either of the New York flights which had transponders off for :26 and :17 minutes respectively. The military tried to muster an air defense, but just couldn't get there in time.

Those searching for a more reasoned explanation suggest: That a rogue group of high ranking government individuals, with complete control and unfettered access to Federal aviation systems and U.S. military operations, either exploited an uncovered terrorist plot, or engineered a false flag operation of their own, to attack symbolic targets in the country, all of which held beneficial side gain to U.S. officials from either their substantial wealth resources, or else crucial incriminating records that needed to be destroyed, all conveniently contained within the targets, all the while initiating an environment of fear and panic that could be used to consolidate government power through the restriction of rights, while enabling an excuse for unprovoked wars that immediately benefit the military industrial complex, the corporate elite, and the PNAC (Project for a New American Century), the latter which penned a document in September of 2000 entitled"Rebuilding America's Defenses," which openly talked ofa new Pearl Harbor in order to facilitate its agenda.

While both plots may be hard to conceive, the fact of the matter is, the last one outlined is arguably much easier to achieve, due to the overwhelming number of PNAC members that were strategically positioned in key government seats of power. A neo-con mechanism was clearly enabled within the Bush-Cheney administration that possessed the ability to implement strategy and achieve the goals set forth by the PNAC. (See more on the PNAC's access to power further in this article.)

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic

Of course, it needs to be said, I'm not attempting to outlaw prayer--voluntary prayer. But object to it for 3 reasons:
There is no evidence, except hearsay, since forever, in the 13 billion year old universe we can see, for even one supernatural event.
There is a reason God would not intervene, free will.
And if God did create the universe to spawn creatures with free will, it stands to reason it would be a rational environment in which to make rational moral decisions.
Supernatural aspects of revealed religion, such as prayer, work against the value of rational thinking--unless it's admitted that it's nothing more than meditation. Praying for something, for anything, is not meditation.

BTW, the Bible has a good example of a major failure of faith. Jesus used the move a mountain with faith analogy to his disciples on the way to cleanse the Temple, which he did. He, and his (5000?) followers, held the Temple and stopped trade for a day thinking (I'm sure) that God would reinhabit the Temple. When God didn't show, many (even some of his disciples) turned on him in fear of being crucified for insurrection, which of course happened to Jesus and at least 2 of his followers, and probably more. Then Jesus, hanging on the cross, asks God why he had abandoned him.

Moral of the story, God didn't abandon him; God doesn't intervene, neither does God make divine revelations.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The inner, supporting structure of the towers consisted of 47 interlocking box columns, heavy-duty 2″ thick steel beams sheathed in cement, bolted and welded together.
I asked about the floor trusses. How were they connected to their supports? It's important. And since you saud you read the NIST report, you should know the answer.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I asked about the floor trusses. How were they connected to their supports? It's important. And since you saud you read the NIST report, you should know the answer.
You are trying to make a liar out of me. I am not entertaining your trickery. The top chords of the trusses were bolted to seats welded to the spandrel on the exterior side and a channel welded to the core columns on the interior side. I said that I had read it, I didn't say that I memorized it. Did you memorise it?

I answered it in post #387, which indicates that you have not read all of my post. It read "The inner, supporting structure of the towers consisted of 47 interlocking box columns, heavy-duty 2″ thick steel beams sheathed in cement, bolted and welded together. The 9/11 Commission completely fails to describe this at all. It’s highly unbelievable that a jet made up of mostly aluminum alloy metals could have created the damage they say, especially since much of the energy was expended just punching through the outer steel surface.

Now, what about that thermite in the dust of all three buildings. When are you going to impart your knowledge on that. Why was there a substance in the Twin Towers that is primarily used by demolition engineers. Why did all three building fall into their own footprint a freefall speed. Why did Goerge Bush say that explosives were used in the Twin Towers.
 
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Then the LORD said to Satan,"Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Job's afflictions began from the malice of Satan, by the Lord's permission, for wise and holy purposes. What is evident is that neither God or Jesus caused them any suffering. It was all down to Satan.

By your logic, Hitler didn't do anything wrong. He wasn't in the death camps killing people so he's in the clear. This is your brain on religion. You twist your reasoning and perceptions to make your religious beliefs fit into a reality that doesn't support them.

How do you know that? People are not usually that forthcoming in divulging their burdens in life. But that is not how God works anyway. There is no set price to sin. It is cause and effect. A universal law that plays out whenever an individual gives cause for a consequence. It works whether you are religious or atheist. Murders never get away with murder, thief never really get to enjoy their spoils and porno stars rarely have a happy family lifestyle. I have seen it working in my life and in the lives of those who I associate with. It always happens. Nobody gets away with it.

One of the ten commandments is that you will worship none other than him. How many people in the world don't follow a Abrahamic religion? According to your logic anyone who is a Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, Scientologist, Wiccan, Atheist, or one of many OTHER things are on god's bad side. Billions of people. There was a study that showed that the happiest and one of the wealthiest countries in the world is one of the least religious. A recent study about happiness in the UK showed that Hindus were the happiest people in the UK. Once again, reality doesn't support your religious beliefs. Not that it matters to a true believer, they are impervious to logic, facts, and reality.

Then you misjudge me as I know that God cannot inflict pain and suffering on His Children and it is not God who takes them to hell, it is the individual who does that, all on his own.

Why does hell exist again? Oh right, god created it. By the way, by not intervening to stop crimes and atrocities when he has the power to, god is just as responsible for what happens on the world he created. But that's if you think about it using logic.

And atheists will do the exact opposite. It is human nature for some to automatically blame some wrong doing onto sinners. Having said that, it is true, it is a consequence of some action perpetrated by man. Just like the story of the flood in the Old Testament when people became so wicked that they evoked a terrible flood upon themselves intended to cleanse the earth. Cause and effect. A universal law that spans both natural and supernatural events.

You do realize you were just saying god cannot inflict pain on his children and now you are claiming he punishes people, and that once he drowned a whole bunch of people. This is your brain on religion. Just say no kids.

I would say that it is a good thing to be comforted and not something that you want to abolish. If good comes from believing in God the who cares if it turns out to be completely wrong. There will be no after life in which to care whether you were wrong or right. If that is true then I, for one, am grateful to those ancient men in superstitious times.

Religion does cause harm. It messes with peoples heads. It gives evil men a tool to manipulate the masses into performing atrocities. It enables bigotry. It is used to promote wars. It hinders scientific progress. It invokes fear of imaginary consequences that do not exist. It makes people ashamed for simply being who they are when they shouldn't be. The list goes on. Humanity needs to grow up and realize it's collective Santa Claus's do not exist.

Who do you speak for when you say "We don't need this superstitious stuff any more" You can only really speak for yourself. I need it. Most of my family, both extended and immediate, need it, friend and associates of mine need it. Probably many who you think don't need it, really do. At the end of they day why do you want to prevent others from taking comfort in a myth? Why would you want to remove a source of happiness in others lives?

Humanity is who I speak for. Just because something makes someone happy doesn't mean its good for them and society in general. By your logic, it would be mean to take a drug addicts drugs away from him and get him cleaned up. Clinging to false hope lulls people into a state of inaction. Theists can just drift off into a fantasy world that doesn't exist thinking "why bother when god will sort everything out". There is no god waiting in the wings to bail us out. We are the only ones capable of securing a better future for future generations. However, instead of actively doing this ourselves, people look to the heavens expecting a god that doesn't exist to do it for us.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You are trying to make a liar out of me. I am not entertaining your trickery. The top chords of the trusses were bolted to seats welded to the spandrel on the exterior side and a channel welded to the core columns on the interior side. I said that I had read it, I didn't say that I memorized it. Did you memorise it?

I answered it in post #387, which indicates that you have not read all of my post. It read "The inner, supporting structure of the towers consisted of 47 interlocking box columns, heavy-duty 2″ thick steel beams sheathed in cement, bolted and welded together. The 9/11 Commission completely fails to describe this at all. It’s highly unbelievable that a jet made up of mostly aluminum alloy metals could have created the damage they say, especially since much of the energy was expended just punching through the outer steel surface.
You've stated your disagreement with the NIST report and its conclusions several times, so I would expect that you know what it is you're disagreeing with.

That's right: at one end of the trusses, the top chord of the floor truss normally sat on a seat, secured by a bolt. The bottom chord didn't connect to the rest of the structure (which is an important detail, and is a different arrangement from many steel buildings).

As the fire heated the floor trusses, they started to sag, which changed how those connections at the ends of the trusses were loaded. Instead of transmitting the loads through the seat as they were designed to do, the sag of the trusses caused a significant lateral load that only had the bolt to resist it.

This caused the bolts to fail, which caused the floors to collapse, which caused the progressive failure of the buildings.

So it isn't a matter of the strength of the outer tube structure versus an airplane; it's a matter of the weight of a floor system versus the strength of a bolt... and then the weight of several falling floors versus the building structure.

Now, what about that thermite in the dust of all three buildings. When are you going to impart your knowledge on that. Why was there a substance in the Twin Towers that is primarily used by demolition engineers. Why did all three building fall into their own footprint a freefall speed. Why did Goerge Bush say that explosives were used in the Twin Towers.
What do you think thermite is? It's just metal powder and metal oxide. "Thermite residue" is just solidified molten metal (in this case, solidified droplets of iron).

It's an unjustified leap to call it "thermite". It's even a stretch to call it "consistent with thermite", because iron droplets are consistent with thermite in the same sense that a blurry photo of a white guy who might be in his 80s is consistent with an Elvis sighting.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
By your logic, Hitler didn't do anything wrong. He wasn't in the death camps killing people so he's in the clear. This is your brain on religion.


You are making a straw man out of Hitler. Those season at debating are aware of the straw man and avoid building any. Those who do not know the correct etiquettes of debating do not even understand the illogical nature of fallacious reasoning. Please, at least try and remember the protocols of correct debating in order to prevent this.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition

You twist your reasoning and perceptions to make your religious beliefs fit into a reality that doesn't support them.

Your indictment that I was acting dishonestly is offensive to my person. You broke one of the many logical fallacies of debating as though you had never heard of it. The difference here in that Hitler was a sadistic tyrant and Heavenly Father is a God. That is why you cannot build straw men to take on the roll of God, or anyone else, it is a completely different person, with different characteristics and a different history to the one being discussed. It is spurious reasoning.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What do you think thermite is? It's just metal powder and metal oxide. "Thermite residue" is just solidified molten metal (in this case, solidified droplets of iron).

It's an unjustified leap to call it "thermite". It's even a stretch to call it "consistent with thermite", because iron droplets are consistent with thermite in the same sense that a blurry photo of a white guy who might be in his 80s is consistent with an Elvis sighting.

There is a peer reviewed published paper written that disagrees with you and openly call it thermite. But that is what it is, it was tested by experts that show it's signature that makes it thermite. It is also making the debunker go white and look ill because they realise that they just might have been wrong in their initial appraisal.

9 scientists, in a peer-reviewed paper, have now proven conclusively — backed-up with irrefutable chemical analysis —that nano-thermite explosive residue was found in the dust of the WTC. This could NOT be anything else.

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in significant numbers in dust associated with the World Trade Center destruction. We have applied SEM/XEDS and other methods to characterize the small-scale structure and chemical signature of these chips, especially of their red component. The red material is most interesting and has the following characteristics:

  1. It is composed of intimately mixed aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, barium, lead and copper. [4,6]
  2. The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.
  3. On treatment with methyl-ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components was observed. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.
  4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in plate-like structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nano-thermite or super-thermite. Analysis shows that iron and oxygen are present in a ratio consistent with Fe2O3. The red material in all four WTC dust samples was similar in this way. Iron oxide was found in the pre-ignition material whereas elemental iron was not.
  5. From the presence of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in the red material, we conclude that it contains the ingredients of thermite.
  6. As measured using DSC, the material ignites and reacts vigorously at a temperature of approximately 430ºC, with a rather narrow exotherm, matching fairly closely an independent observation on a known super-thermite sample. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron-oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900ºC) but very likely a form of super-thermite.
  7. After igniting several red/gray chips in a differential scanning calorimeter run to 700ºC, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and spheroids in the residue, indicating that a very high-temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction.
  8. The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and of many of the micro-spheres found in the WTC dust. [5]
  9. The presence of an organic substance in the red material is expected for super-thermite formulations in order to produce high gas pressures upon ignition and thus make them explosive. The nature of this organic material in these chips merits further exploration. We note that it is likely also an energetic material, in that the total energy release sometimes observed in DSC tests exceeds the theoretical maximum energy of the classic thermite reaction.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Thermite is used in welding, no?

Yes, that is quite right, however, it has no connection with the thermite that was found in the dust. This was militarily constructed, apparently it does not exist naturally. The quantity in the dust exceeded any residue that might have been left from welding, plus thermite welding is mainly used for welding together railway tracks. So, thank you for trying to be helpful, sadly you failed. I have not said that it is only used in demolition. What I said about thermite and demolition can be seen in my list below, but don't trust me, have a look yourself. The amount that was there, in the dust, and it's chemical construction determined that it was thermite used by demolition engineers.

All cases of Serenity using the word "Demolition" and "Thermite" together.

  1. Thermite is used by demolition engineers, many of which have said that all three building were brought down by controlled explosions
  2. Why was there a substance in the Twin Towers that is primarily used by demolition engineers.
  3. There is no reason why Thermite should be present in the dust of the twin towers and building 7 either. Thermite is used by demolition engineers to demolish buildings.
  4. but most importantly, the thermite that was found in the dust of the twin towers and building 7. Why would you find thermite, that is used by demolition engineers, in a place like that?
  5. why was there thermite in the dust of the Twin Towers and Building 7.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
You've stated your disagreement with the NIST report and its conclusions several times, so I would expect that you know what it is you're disagreeing with.

That's right: at one end of the trusses, the top chord of the floor truss normally sat on a seat, secured by a bolt. The bottom chord didn't connect to the rest of the structure (which is an important detail, and is a different arrangement from many steel buildings).

As the fire heated the floor trusses, they started to sag, which changed how those connections at the ends of the trusses were loaded. Instead of transmitting the loads through the seat as they were designed to do, the sag of the trusses caused a significant lateral load that only had the bolt to resist it.

This caused the bolts to fail, which caused the floors to collapse, which caused the progressive failure of the buildings.

So it isn't a matter of the strength of the outer tube structure versus an airplane; it's a matter of the weight of a floor system versus the strength of a bolt... and then the weight of several falling floors versus the building structure.

You did memorize the NIST report.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What do you think thermite is? It's just metal powder and metal oxide. "Thermite residue" is just solidified molten metal (in this case, solidified droplets of iron).

Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of metal powder fuel and metal oxide. When ignited by heat, thermite undergoes an exothermic reduction-oxidation (redox) reaction. Most varieties are not explosive but can create brief bursts of high temperature in a small area. It is used in welding and for incendiary bombs.
 
You are making a straw man out of Hitler. Those season at debating are aware of the straw man and avoid building any. Those who do not know the correct etiquettes of debating do not even understand the illogical nature of fallacious reasoning. Please, at least try and remember the protocols of correct debating in order to prevent this.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

I made an analogy not a strawman argument. God told satan to inflict suffering on Job by killing his family and by your "reasoning" he has absolutely NO responsibility for that suffering whatsoever. So using your same "reasoning" Hitler telling others to murder absolves him of any blame or guilt for German death camps. That is not a strawman argument, it is a demonstration of how your "reasoning" is twisted and flawed.

Your indictment that I was acting dishonestly is offensive to my person. You broke one of the many logical fallacies of debating as though you had never heard of it. The difference here in that Hitler was a sadistic tyrant and Heavenly Father is a God. That is why you cannot build straw men to take on the roll of God, or anyone else, it is a completely different person, with different characteristics and a different history to the one being discussed. It is spurious reasoning.

Again, I did not make a strawman argument. Also, according to his actions as portrayed in the bible, the bible god is a sadistic tyrant many times worse then Hitler. Hitler never killed everyone on the planet except for a handful of people.
 
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