I have a question. Do you believe the Flood in Noah's day occurred?
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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering
- Thread starter Serenity7855
- Start date
1robin
Christian/Baptist
It does not matter what you, I, or any slob on the street thinks about what they believe makes a person a Christian. It is only God's requirements which matter. Fortunately Christ was very explicit as to what a Christian is. Probably the most descriptive look at what makes a person a Christian is contained in John 3. It is a conversation between Nicodemus (a Hebrew priest) and Jesus.
1. Nicodemus was one of the few priests that was honest and true, another being Joseph.
2. Nicodemus was wise.
3. He was sincere.
4. He was devout.
5. By any reasonable human notion Nicodemus was a great and Godly man.
Being that he was honest and wise he knew (as opposed to most of the priestly class) that Christ only if Jesus was from God (or was God) could he perform all the miracles he was carrying out and that was the only explanation for why a man as young and poor as Christ was possessed of such astounding wisdom and perfection. However he knew his fellow priests resented Christ because he was taking their followers away. He snuck over to Jesus one night and basically asked him how he could be redeemed and make sure he belonged to the family of God. Jesus said nothing about being devout, nothing about going to church, nothing about having mountains of knowledge, Nicodemus had all these things in spades. He told him that he MUST be born again (from above) to even enter the kingdom of God. He asked him how a senior teacher of Israel could be so naïve as to not even understand the basics of salvation.
In summary only God can make a person a true Christian (little Christ), no amount of effort on our behalf can do anything to fill the infinite chasm between ourselves and God.
That is just the briefest of basics concerning salvation. If you want the full gambit I can pour out an avalanche of scripture and doctrine. It is up to you.
Hey 1robin, I haven't forgotten you! Hope you're well!
Got a lot going on in my life.
How about we discuss the trinity? Because I don't believe in it. I solely worship Jesus' Father, who sent him. Jesus is my Savior, but I worship who Jesus worshipped, His Father. -- John 20:17; John 4:23-24.
I will try to get back, soon.
Until then, take care, my friend.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
No problem, take your time.
Preaching to the choir.
That will be fine. Let me post a few of it's core principles and you can tell me which you disagree with.
1. I do not claim that the bible contains the word "trinity" in it. However, I believe it does include everything necessary for the concept of the trinity to be true.
2. I believe that God is a single being composed of three persons.
3. Persons being entities with individual wills.
4. The persons in question are the Father, the unique Son (Christ), and the Holy Spirit.
5. I believe all three of those persons are divine.
I guess that is enough to get the ball opened. Take your pick.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It does. It just doesn't have a "q," "u" or "e" in it.
The word is spelled "choir." You're welcome. As in "Mormon Tabernacle Choir" .
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Thanks, that's embarrassing. I am a grammatical train wreck.It does. It just doesn't have a "q," "u" or "e" in it.
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"Quire" -- cute! (You thought it had an "o" in it -- that's too cute!)
You know, there are many different views of the trinity. To take point #5, that something is divine....would that mean it is God? I wouldn't think so. The Angels are divine, so is the Earth....they are divine to me; they are all "of God".
Really, our only valid source for discussing this subject is the Bible, itself. We should just use scriptures and their context, and then reason on those, as the Apostle Paul did. --Acts of the Apostles 17:2-3.
That being said, what do you think Paul meant at 1 Corinthians 11:1? You see, I feel whenever the title "God" is used by the NT Bible writers, they always meant "Yahweh", the God of the Jews. (I mean, all the Bible is one book, promoting one God, wouldn't you agree?)
I think 2 Corinthians 13:14 especially highlights this, showing this distinction. Because, if the Christians back then believed in a triune God, Paul would have used the phrase, 'God the Father', to at least not exclude Jesus and The Holy Spirit from being God, too. But Paul doesn't say that; in fact, those phrases, 'God the Son' and 'God the Holy Spirit', are not found in the Scriptures!
Here is why it would be very important to do so (if Jesus and the Holy Spirit were God): because, for the first three years of Christianity, all Christians were former Jews. The Jews had it ingrained in them, that Yahweh was their God. If God had included Jesus now, those Bible writers would have bent over backwards, stating and restating that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were God. They never once say that! Some texts are worded to infer that, but the writers' intents were not toward supporting a trinity.
No, I believe an apostasy quickly took effect, right after the death of the Apostles. It was prophesied. And it was occurring, even while they were still living!
Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; 2 Peter 3:16; 2 Peter 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:18; etc.
I'm not going to believe a doctrine that began to be formulated at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, presided over by the murderer Constantine the Great.
What do you think?
Plus, you honestly and candidly tell me that you had to look up a word's definition....
My goodness! On top of your elegant style of expression, you show such humility! Your 'awesome' rating just rose a couple notches. I'd bet you have a lot of friends!
1robin
Christian/Baptist
If salvation depended on spelling I would be in the lowest level of Dante's inferno.
I am not sure about Angels. Some definitions for divine include angels and some mean strictly God alone. However I think this is a distinction without difference. There are things that are true of Jesus that are not true of Angels. Some examples are that all of creation (including Angels) were subordinated to Christ, all things that were created were created through Christ (not Angels), Christ can forgive sin in his own name (something only God can do), Jesus is referred to as Emmanuel or "God with us", and he existed prior to the rest of creating.....etc.
I agree but history and philosophy among other disciplines can be used for some claims. Everything I stated in the paragraph immediately above this is directly from scripture. I am sure your probably aware of the scriptures in question but if you wish I can post them.
I believe the scripture in question states.
New International Version
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
New Living Translation
And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.
English Standard Version
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
Berean Study Bible
You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.
Berean Literal Bible
Be imitators of me, as I also am of Christ.
New American Standard Bible
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
King James Bible
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
I do not see the relevance here. Paul was simply saying that Christ's perfection is the goal for all Christians, yet it is a destination no one (not even Paul) will reach until resurrection. Paul was saying to do as he did because he was trying to do as Christ did. Maybe you can clarify why you mentioned that verse, because I am a little lost here.
To claim that a thing isn't true because it lacks sufficient evidence is only valid if given X we should have more evidence than we actually do. Let me go ahead and give a few verses.
New International Version
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
New International Version
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
New International Version
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
New International Version
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
I can post hundreds of similar verses about Christ. The only possible way all those verses can be true about a single man (Christ) is if he is God. Claims about what the apostles should have said are impossible to verify. There is a saying I have always liked. "I do not entertain hypotheticals, the world as it is, is vexing enough". We can't debate what the apostles didn't say, only what they did say.
Again, we can't evaluate something someone didn't say. We have no access to things people didn't say. Regardless what the Jewish apostles did say is where everyone learns about the trinity to begin with. As I stated I can post hundreds of scriptures recorded by the earliest Jews to demonstrate that Christ is not a mere teacher. I will give you a quote from one of the greatest Christian writers in human history.
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Well, we are not discussing the writings of Didache, Barnabus, Clement, Ignacious, Polycarp, the early Catholic creeds, or the Roman councils, etc......, we are discussing the NT.
I believe 2 things about apostasy.
1. That apostasy has been occurring over the entire history of Christianity, but that God has said that: I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:17-19
2. There is in addition to this, a great "falling away" but that is prophesied for the last days, not the first days. If God would allow his message to be perverted in only two generations then that does not bode well for God or the faith.
I need to add a lot to flesh this out properly so I am going to respond to these last few claims in another post.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
1. I was originally only talking about the NT but I need to add in the early church fathers to show that the divinity of Christ was around long before council of Nicea.
Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ?
Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code, and they’ll try to convince you the answer is no. From such sources we are told that the deity of Christ was a doctrine invented centuries after Jesus’ death — a result of pagan influences on the church in the fourth century when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its official religion.
Among thousands Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabus, Justyn, Tatian, Melito, Iranaeus, Clement, Tertulian,
Caius, Origen, Novatian of Rome, etc......
Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?
The Early Church Fathers on Jesus - Risen Jesus, Inc.
Countless mainstream theologians affirmed Christ's divinity, most precede the council of Nicea (Nicaea) and many go back to the lifetime of the apostles.
2. Whatever Constantine may have been he did not force anything on the bishops at the council of Nicea. His motivations were political rather than theological. There was a movement (the name escapes me at the moment) going around the Eastern Roman empire concerning Christ's nature. It was dividing the empire and resulted in some violence. Constantine invited every bishop in the empire to settle the issues of Christ's nature. No evidence exists that he did anything but initiate and observe the meeting. I believe every bishop in attendance said Christ was divine except for 2.
3. I make claims about the original revelation with the full knowledge that the originals no longer exist. However there are ways to know with great certainty what originals say even if they are lost provided that you have certain things pertaining to the text. Early copies, prolific copies, no controlling central authority, parallel copies, and as a bonus have very old copies that were lost only to be recently discovered (dead sea scrolls, etc..... The bible has them all in spades.
You made a good post, my response is a lot to take in so take your time.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I appreciate the sentiments, I need to misspell more words in the future. I think I am up to that challenge. I have a singular talent for misspelling the word I intended to post, but accidentally spelling a word I did not mean to type, correctly. Spell check is impotent in my case. My poor grammar is immune to all weapons formed against it.
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Regarding 1Corinthians 11:1...why did I write that?! (Because I'm imperfect? I can't believe it! It's gotta be the tablet's fault! Hehe) I meant 1 Corinthians 11:3.
I response to your statement.....
"There is in addition to this, a great "falling away" but that is prophesied for the last days, not the first days. If God would allow his message to be perverted in only two generations then that does not bode well for God or the faith."
.....the Apostle John said at 1 John 2:18-19, "...even now there have come to be many antichrists."
These are ones who were at one time, Christians! In John's day!
Here is the entire passage: "Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort."
So even back then, while the Apostles were still alive, many had turned away from being Christian! How much more so, after all the Apostles died! They were the ones who, as a group and individually, acted "as a restraint" against apostasy. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
More replies will be posted, later. Take care!
1robin
Christian/Baptist
You got me beat, I probably can't turn a tablet on.
1 Cor 11:3 is a nut too tough for me to crack. I will post some excerpts from my betters instead.
The head of Christ is God; and God is the Head of Christ, not in respect of his essence and Divine nature, but in respect of his office as Mediator; as the man is the head of the woman, not in respect of a different and more excellent essence and nature, (for they are both of the same nature), but in respect of office and place, as God hath set him over the woman. Nor indeed could those who deny the Divine nature of Christ, easily have brought a text more against their own assertion, than this, which rather proveth, that God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are equal in nature and essence, than different; for surely the head is not of a different, but the same nature and essence with the members. Nor doth Christ’s subjection to his Father at all argue an inequality, or difference from him in nature and essence, more than the subjection of subjects to a prince argue any such thing. The apostle then determines this to be the order which God hath set: God is the Head of Christ; Christ is the Head of his church, and every one that is a member of it; and man is the head of the woman, he to whom the woman ought to be subject. as the church is subject to Christ, and Christ is subject to his Father; and from hence he argues as follows.
The last clause, “the Head of Christ is God,” gives (as is St. Paul’s custom, see 1Corinthians 3:23; 1Corinthians 8:6; 1Corinthians 15:25) completeness to the thought. As the Head of the Church—i.e., as the man Christ Jesus—Christ is subordinate to the Father, and, indeed, perhaps the idea is carried farther into the mystery of the divine nature itself, as consisting of three Persons co-eternal and co-equal, yet being designated with an unvarying sequence as “first,” and “second,” and “third.”
1 Corinthians 11:3 Commentaries: But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
When I think of apostasy I think of a general falling away. It also appeared that is the context in which you mentioned it. Of course there have been individuals who betrayed the faith from day 1. Take Judas for example. However we were talking about doctrines and so individuals don't matter that much. I actually only need the apostles themselves to justify my belief in the Trinity. Even if every Christian from the 2nd through the 21st century were wrong it would have little effect on core Christian doctrine.
We have no way to know what they were, but I doubt they were ever actually Christians. For what a real Christian is see John 3s discussion between Christ and Nicodemus. Regardless, the issue of what some individuals may have done does not indicate an entire faith was hijacked.
I do not for one minute deny that some people who were superficially associated with Christianity left the "faith" or taught falsities. I am talking about the core doctrines of the faith themselves. What your saying is equivalent to a few mathematicians getting some problems wrong (accidentally or intentionally) and concluding that we have no idea how to do mathematics any more, and no idea how anyone ever did mathematics. Basically your taking my bad test results from engineering school and claiming they resulted in the hijacking of Newtonian physics so that no one can even determine what Newton's laws ever were.
To prove your case you need to show:
1. That enough people left Christianity to over whelm those who remained faithful.
2. That some how those that left gathered up all extant manuscripts and then distributed the manuscripts they created.
3. That those that left, and those that substituted their own manuscripts for the originals, also wanted to specifically change Christ's nature without emphatically stating it.
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I just want you to know, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I consider myself a Christian. We follow Jesus as our Leader, the one sent by God. -- John 3:16.
Isn't that really the definition of 'Christian,' one who follows and accepts Christ as their Savior?
I'll continue to respond to your statements and quotes, later.
Take care!
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Actually I did not see that non-Christian sentence in what I quoted. I do not claim that Jehovah's witnesses are necessarily non-Christians. I do not believe the JW's creeds are consistent with the bible, but that does not mean there are not loads of Christians who are also JWs. So do not take that statement as reflecting my own beliefs. I believe that anyone who has accepted Christ as savior and was born again, is a Christian. Sorry I didn't edit that part out when I copied and pasted it. It seems to come up in our discussions so I will post what Christ said about what a true Christian is, just so we are on the same page.
John 3:1-17
Nicodemus Visits Jesus
3Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus* by night and said to him, ‘Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.’ 3Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’* 4Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ 5Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.* 7Do not be astonished that I said to you, “You* must be born from above.”* 8The wind* blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.’ 9Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can these things be?’ 10Jesus answered him, ‘Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?
11 ‘Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you* do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.* 14And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.*
16 ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 ‘Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
oremus Bible Browser : John 3:1-17
Salvation is by grace through faith. It can't be earned, it can't be lost once gained, we can't merit it, and it is not a reward. It is a gift, paid for by God, received by faith when we are born from above (again).
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MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Faith suffers for a short time with Hope. God deals with the devil.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Yes, but not worldwide. To Noah and his family, it seemed to be over the whole world; still of their world because when Noah let a raven fly off the ark, it flew far enough and did not return. He sent out a dove and the dove did not fly far enough. It returned. Then again after seven days and the dove returned with a plucked-off olive leaf. (Gen. 6:8-12) Then, Noah realized that land was to be seen again.
I've heard this before but I don't agree, because Genesis has them in the Ark way too long (months) for a local phenomenon! (The waters would've receded more quickly.) Then, to land high up on Mt. Ararat after that. We must assume it was at high altitude, because it's never been found!
But at least we agree that it occurred!
Hey 1robin! "I'm ba-ack!" (Did I scare ya?) Sorry I was gone awhile, couldn't really be helped.
I agree with much of what you wrote. Not all. I will go into more detail, soon.
Hope you have been well.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Oh yes! It did occur. The event is not mentioned only in the Tanach but also in several other cultures, especially Babylon.