Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[RJ50]

Hopefully the Biblical deity doesn't exist, humanity needs a deity that unpleasant like a hole in the head!

 

[Lady B]

Hopefully the Biblical deity doesn't exist, humanity needs a deity that unpleasant like a hole in the head!

I can see why you would need that hope, However believers do not at all wish they were wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can see why you would need that hope, However believers do not at all wish they were wrong.

How do you define a believer? It seems to me that plenty of somewhat liberal Christians (and Muslims, I assume) don't particularly mind if the fire-and-brimstone interpretations turn out to be wrong.

 

[McBell]

How do you define a believer? It seems to me that plenty of somewhat liberal Christians (and Muslims, I assume) don't particularly mind if the fire-and-brimstone interpretations turn out to be wrong.

Good luck.
She STILL has not defined "pre-ordained".

 

[Lady B]

1) That doesn't explain a) why it's a sin and b) why that sin deserves death

2) Sounds a lot like a "do what I say or die" morality. Is that not evil?



Of course and it was never my intention to start a debate on homosexuality. I was mainly trying to say that if God's morality is better then surely he could explain why killing homosexuals is more moral than not killing them



This is why I believe secular morality to be superior. Secular morality is constantly changing as our understanding and knowledge increases whereas God's remains the same. You may say that God has more knowledge than us and so his morals are better but I'd disagree. If God is more knowledgeable than us then why doesn't he give good reasons for the bibles morals other than "do what I say because I know better than you". If any human did that then they'd just be ignored.

That is frightening beyond words.To believe we have succeeded God in knowledge is an incredible statement and one only a non-believer could ever have.Imagine that Their is such a God, Imagine he is smarter than you, Imagine he did create you and all that does entail, and imagine yourself telling him you have succeeded him....I Don't have to imagine, I have seen this scenario played out already with the fall of Lucifer.....

 

[LuisDantas]

That is frightening beyond words.

Not at all.

To believe we have succeeded God in knowledge is an incredible statement and one only a non-believer could ever have.

With all due respect, you are either sorely misunderstanding things or lacking in faith.

Is it not said in the Bible that we humans were created in the image of God? Is it not Christian belief that our capacity for moral discernment and judgement are gifts from God?

It would be utterly unreasonable, or even worse, to refuse to use those gifts when they are most needed.

People shouldn't be ashamed of knowing how to judge the moral validity of things. Perhaps even more so if they acknowledge that such capability comes from God's Will.

Imagine that Their is such a God, Imagine he is smarter than you, Imagine he did create you and all that does entail, and imagine yourself telling him you have succeeded him....

That is not the case, however. We are talking instead of transcending the limitations of specific interpretations of long dated scripture.

God has no more reason to disapprove of that than a parent has reason to be troubled by his children learning to walk and to speak.

I Don't have to imagine, I have seen this scenario played out already with the fall of Lucifer.....

You know, you are doing a lot to help me understand why there are those who see sense in following the LHP.

 

[Lady B]

I'm not saying the existence of suffering makes God evil. My nephew's parents loved him and never thought he should die or suffer, but God allowed the child to suffer a surplus of suffering. God may love 'All children', but this one suffered though in general not all do. The parents loved this boy in a way God did not -- in a human way. God was unmoved by prayer, would not heal the child, did not shield him from terrible suffering, did not take suggestions or trades or pleadings. Perhaps it was for a greater purpose, but it still was very impersonal. I think a personal God would have healed my nephew.

The experiences of parenting are beyond words. I don't think its something I can intelligently discuss with you, or that you can express to me. First I haven't had kids and second you can't put it into words besides. There's no common frame of reference between us, so lets not pretend that there is.

You may remember the story of Jesus crucifixion where he asks God why he's been abandoned, but it is his joy that enables him to endure. For the joy ahead he endures the cross. That is similar to a woman in childbirth. She's suffering, and she may regret her predicament momentarily but she goes through with it. You can tell me that her suffering comes 'Because of sin in the world', but she's still suffering. You can tell me Jesus suffers to save the world, but it still hurts. Pain is personal, and God doesn't seem to feel it.

I disagree God is impersonal and does not feel our pain,The Bible shows us God does care, He does hear us and he Is very personnel. Because our prayers are not answered in the way we perceive as Good, does not mean He does not care.We cannot know what his will is for each of us, or how he uses the bad, to forfill his will in our lives.I am sorry for your nephews suffering, I am sorry you can't find the answers you seek to know why It happened at all, I am sorry you see God as evil, cold and uncaring. I can't imagine to be you in your unbelief the same way as you can't imagine to be me and have the faith I have.

 

[Lady B]

Not at all.




With all due respect, you are either sorely misunderstanding things or lacking in faith.

Is it not said in the Bible that we humans were created in the image of God? Is it not Christian belief that our capacity for moral discernment and judgement are gifts from God?

It would be utterly unreasonable, or even worse, to refuse to use those gifts when they are most needed.

People shouldn't be ashamed of knowing how to judge the moral validity of things. Perhaps even more so if they acknowledge that such capability comes from God's Will.




That is not the case, however. We are talking instead of transcending the limitations of specific interpretations of long dated scripture.

God has no more reason to disapprove of that than a parent has reason to be troubled by his children learning to walk and to speak.




You know, you are doing a lot to help me understand why there are those who see sense in following the LHP.

my response was not in argument that we Cannot understand or have great knowledge in the things of God, I responded to what seems to me a statement we can succeed God's knowledge.

 

[LuisDantas]

my response was not in argument that we Cannot understand or have great knowledge in the things of God, I responded to what seems to me a statement we can succeed God's knowledge.

But the subject matter has nothing to do with succeeding God's knowledge, which would of course be far more funny than dangerous, not unlike attempting to stand higher than the mountains.

9Westy9's wording in #170 could possibly be a bit better, but his point is rather sound and clear.

The proper Christian answer to his words:

You may say that God has more knowledge than us and so his morals are better but I'd disagree. If God is more knowledgeable than us then why doesn't he give good reasons for the bibles morals other than "do what I say because I know better than you". If any human did that then they'd just be ignored.

Might perhaps be to clarify that God's morals are not static, because they live through the hearts and minds of those made in His image. Or maybe something else.

But it surely does not have to be that we are stuck with ancient, largely innaplicable interpretations of scripture and can't in good faith aim for anything better.

 

[Lady B]

But the subject matter has nothing to do with succeeding God's knowledge, which would of course be far more funny than dangerous, not unlike attempting to stand higher than the mountains.

9Westy9's wording in #170 could possibly be a bit better, but his point is rather sound and clear.

The proper Christian answer to his words:



Might perhaps be to clarify that God's morals are not static, because they live through the hearts and minds of those made in His image. Or maybe something else.

But it surely does not have to be that we are stuck with ancient, largely innaplicable interpretations of scripture and can't in good faith aim for anything better.

Ok If that was his point, he is still assuming secular morality succeeds or can succeed God's, But I would like to hear some examples of secular Morality that could succeed or outdo God's and that which God has not ordained himself through out all biblical scripture.Do you know of any?

 

[Lady B]

Have a merry Christmas Lady B and a brilliant new year too

Why Thank you !

 

[LuisDantas]

Ok If that was his point, he is still assuming secular morality succeeds or can succeed God's, But I would like to hear some examples of secular Morality that could succeed or outdo God's and that which God has not ordained himself through out all biblical scripture.Do you know of any?

First we must clarify what exactly you mean by "God's Morality".

A fair argument can be made that human (secular) morality is God's Morality. After all, from a believer's perspective it can only happen and change by God's grace, isn't it so?

 

[Tristesse]

Ok If that was his point, he is still assuming secular morality succeeds or can succeed God's, But I would like to hear some examples of secular Morality that could succeed or outdo God's and that which God has not ordained himself through out all biblical scripture.Do you know of any?

Treating others with a sense of decency and humanity regardless of whether or not they believe in a deity. Thats a moral standard that you do not find the God of the bible endorsing. Also, do not own another human being as property and beat him or her, thats another one that would have made the bible infinitely better. I would also argue that there is nothing intrinisically religious about the basic principals, like don't murder (even though thats a rather vague terminology), steel etc... Religion has highjacked basic principals of morality and slapped a jesus sticker on them.

 

[Lady B]

I say that God does not ordain evil nor is He the author of it.

Hoever God may have been punishing at least one person in the trajedy for things that were done in a past life and the others were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I believe one of the comandments tells about how to lead a short life, honor your mother and father if you wish to live long; disobey this and die young in this life or the next.

hmmmmm, I am wondering how as a Christian (per your Label) you see reincarnation and judgement on the reincarnated?

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,Hebrews 9:27

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I say that God does not ordain evil nor is He the author of it.

Yes. God merely created us (or nothing created us) with the ability to recognize good and evil and the ability to choose between them.

First we must clarify what exactly you mean by "God's Morality".

Morality, is inherent and inalienable. It is there whether God exists or not. And it's very simple, being a refinement of the Golden Rule which is contained (some would say swamped) in the moral addendums attached to it in the various "revealed" religions; stated here to be: Honoring the equal rights of all to their life, liberty and property to be free from violation through force or fraud. It governs our interactions with each other and should be the only subject of legislation. An individual code of conduct, virture, is up to individuals exclusively.

Most of the 10 Commandments deal with morality, but not all. Worshiping the God of Israel and keeping the sabbath being examples of non-moral issues. Having graven images is harmless if you don't worship them, but even if you do, it's your right to be a stupid as you want on your own dime.

 

[Lady B]

Treating others with a sense of decency and humanity regardless of whether or not they believe in a deity. Thats a moral standard that you do not find the God of the bible endorsing. Also, do not own another human being as property and beat him or her, thats another one that would have made the bible infinitely better. I would also argue that there is nothing intrinisically religious about the basic principals, like don't murder (even though thats a rather vague terminology), steel etc... Religion has highjacked basic principals of morality and slapped a jesus sticker on them.

Ok, seems many of secular moralists use slavery as their claim God is Immoral, or rather his laws are. Let us examine this, perhaps in another thread? I am not sure if this side topic would be considered derailment, but If everyone agrees it is ok to go into it here, I am willing. I am sure at some point it has been discussed here in RF and most likely from my standpoint, But I am willing and prepared to debate Biblical slavery and I will even go so far as to say the Biblical slavery was not a bad thing, certainly not what it is today or in the centuries secular morality has been instituted above God's Morality. At any rate It is Christmas Eve and I have a few things to do here at home and tomorrow as well. Let me know if this is something you would like to open up here in this thread or I will open another after Christmas. Peace.:candle:

 

[Desert Snake]

I beg your pardon?

ETA: I can't begin to guess why you would disagree, but it is only sensible - from both a secular and a religious standpoint - to acknowledge and adapt to social changes and the development of knowledge of social sciences.

?? That response doesn't make sense to me, don't worry about it

 

[LuisDantas]

?? That response doesn't make sense to me, don't worry about it

I guess my point is that deep down it makes no sense to surrender moral values to matters of faith, regardless of one's religion.

 

[Desert Snake]

I guess my point is that deep down it makes no sense to surrender moral values to matters of faith, regardless of one's religion.

O.k., but 'secular society' is not a good measure of what's moral, regardless of religion/lack of it

 

[RogerTheAtheist]

Where does free will come into play? At which point in the chain of physical causes leading up to a death does god intervene with a supernatural cause?