Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[9Westy9]

Ok I have to sleep and be ready for my busy holliday schedule again tommorow, I will get to all the responses as I can through this busy time. I wish all of you a merry Christmas and good times with family and friends. Peace

Have a merry Christmas Lady B and a brilliant new year too

 

[9Westy9]

To blame God for evil would be the same as cutting off the very branch your sitting on.Without God evil does not exist. Only a difference of opinions.

Of course evil exists without God. Evil has a definition and, last time I checked, God wasn't in it.

 

[Desert Snake]

Using Adam as our fall guy for the sins we do is completely not scriptural, It is written we are not judged by the sins of our fathers, we are judged for our own.

Neither 'original sin' nor sin merely because it is our human nature would justify blaming Adam and Eve for our sins

I think I view scripture differently than you. Doesn't change the message in the NT, though, IMO

 

[9Westy9]

That is something that many people say. I wonder if there are people who actually make some sense of it. I certainly do not.

The wiki article on compatibilism seems to explain it quite well

 

[Lady B]

1) So then God should be able to explain why children who curse against their parents should be killed and why homosexuals who lie with other homosexuals should be killed. etc.

2) How is God's morality any less relative than secular morality?

1) Actually he has explained these things to you allready,They are in Scripture and It is Grace that keeps the sinner alive.The penalty for sin is death, Honoring your parents is a law Of God and he has told us by breaking one law you are guilty.I would rather not get into a gay debate with you at this time as you know my turmoil right now......

2) God's Morality is unchanging and secular Morality is relative to era's, culture and circumstance. God has said there is nothing new under the sun,God has said He never changes, which means all the issues we have today, like slavery, abortion, murder, adultery stealing ect.. has been with man through out all history and God has shown us His way in all these issues.

 

[Lady B]

Neither 'original sin' nor sin merely because it is our human nature would justify blaming Adam and Eve for our sins

I think I view scripture differently than you. Doesn't change the message in the NT, though, IMO

I agree we view some things differently, but this is not cause for separation, and If I were not trying to define these doctrines in this thread I would never even have debated your post, since it is not essential in the greater message of the Bible.

 

[Desert Snake]

^+1 agreed

 

[Lady B]

Well I have to get back to my Christmas preparations, I am trying to keep up with the thread in my downtime, But If I don't get back to you for a couple days, I wish you all a wonderful Christmas holliday however you celebrate it and for whatever reasons,If only for the Holliday then Enjoy your families and friends ,Good food and The Joy of giving, Peace.

 

[Copernicus]

Well both pre-destination and free will do co-exist according to the scriptures, God Is not culpable for the will of man which is sinful. Let me attempt again to show you pre-ordainment. Pre-ordain, means God does choose his elect, has chosen them from before creation. He gave all men the ability to choose him, but they will not do so. Men in their sin nature hate God and therefore God himself must choose men or none will be saved. That is about the best I can do right now after giving much thought how to put this into words that are not in scripture.

Since different believers interpret scripture differently, it probably isn't reasonable for you to quote it and expect us to arrive at your interpretation. You seem to understand that it is difficult for others to accept an apparent logical contradiction so easily. But, as you say, God is alleged to be beyond human understanding. From our position as logical beings--something that God presumably instilled in us--God bears responsibility for his actions, and those are what we judge to be evil (given your version of God). Clearly, if I am not to be in God's "elect," that is how he chose to make me. That is not the behavior of a rational being. It is like the carpenter who hits his thumb instead of the nail and curses the hammer and the nail for being in the wrong place. What would be the point of then condemning his own creations? Is that not an implicit condemnation of himself?

As far as the Genesis record, God for his own Glory chose before he even created earth, his people, He knew ahead of time his created would sin, Christ's sacrifice was already ordained. So despite what God knew would happen, He chose this way to bring glory to himself. As far as the individual sins of his created, God did not cause Adam and eve to sin, they did have a choice, they did disobey God there by sin entered the world thru one man. This inherent sin spoken of is not Biblical, It is Inherent sin nature, not responsibility of our fathers sin. Scripture tells us we are not punished for our fathers sin but that of our own, period.Once that apple was eaten, men were cursed with the sin nature, no man is Good, no not one. This is my belief and I believe this is what the Bible teaches us.

What really throws me for a loop in your chain of reasoning is your use of the word "glory." There is no glory to be had by a creator that condemns its creations for flaws designed into them. Where you see glory, I see shame.

 

[9Westy9]

1) Actually he has explained these things to you allready,They are in Scripture and It is Grace that keeps the sinner alive.The penalty for sin is death, Honoring your parents is a law Of God and he has told us by breaking one law you are guilty.

1) That doesn't explain a) why it's a sin and b) why that sin deserves death

2) Sounds a lot like a "do what I say or die" morality. Is that not evil?

I would rather not get into a gay debate with you at this time as you know my turmoil right now......

Of course and it was never my intention to start a debate on homosexuality. I was mainly trying to say that if God's morality is better then surely he could explain why killing homosexuals is more moral than not killing them

2) God's Morality is unchanging and secular Morality is relative to era's, culture and circumstance. God has said there is nothing new under the sun,God has said He never changes, which means all the issues we have today, like slavery, abortion, murder, adultery stealing ect.. has been with man through out all history and God has shown us His way in all these issues.

This is why I believe secular morality to be superior. Secular morality is constantly changing as our understanding and knowledge increases whereas God's remains the same. You may say that God has more knowledge than us and so his morals are better but I'd disagree. If God is more knowledgeable than us then why doesn't he give good reasons for the bibles morals other than "do what I say because I know better than you". If any human did that then they'd just be ignored.

 

[LuisDantas]

This is why I believe secular morality to be superior. Secular morality is constantly changing as our understanding and knowledge increases whereas God's remains the same. You may say that God has more knowledge than us and so his morals are better but I'd disagree. If God is more knowledgeable than us then why doesn't he give good reasons for the bibles morals other than "do what I say because I know better than you". If any human did that then they'd just be ignored.

This.

 

[idav]

I don't agree. Believing men have no free will to sin, would indeed mean God sins, that is absolute blasphemy and a contradiction of the entirety of scripture. So Given we know what is written, Pre-destination,the depravity of men and God's sinless nature,these are absolutes according to scripture, so therefore whether they seem contradicting to you because of the lack of definition found in scripture, they cannot be so.

If god really gave us free will then it would be the power to do other than what god wills which would relieve god of the omnipotent label.

 

[Falvlun]

Well both pre-destination and free will do co-exist according to the scriptures, God Is not culpable for the will of man which is sinful. Let me attempt again to show you pre-ordainment. Pre-ordain, means God does choose his elect, has chosen them from before creation. He gave all men the ability to choose him, but they will not do so. Men in their sin nature hate God and therefore God himself must choose men or none will be saved. That is about the best I can do right now after giving much thought how to put this into words that are not in scripture.

As far as the Genesis record, God for his own Glory chose before he even created earth, his people, He knew ahead of time his created would sin, Christ's sacrifice was already ordained. So despite what God knew would happen, He chose this way to bring glory to himself. As far as the individual sins of his created, God did not cause Adam and eve to sin, they did have a choice, they did disobey God there by sin entered the world thru one man. This inherent sin spoken of is not Biblical, It is Inherent sin nature, not responsibility of our fathers sin. Scripture tells us we are not punished for our fathers sin but that of our own, period.Once that apple was eaten, men were cursed with the sin nature, no man is Good, no not one. This is my belief and I believe this is what the Bible teaches us.

That is a whole lot of contradiction in one post.

Contradiction #1: God chooses who will and will not accept him / Man has free-will.

Contradiction #2: God is good / God purposefully chooses a plan which will cause a whole lot of suffering merely to give himself more glory.

Contradiction #3: Adam is not responsible for our sin / Adam is responsible for giving us a sin nature

Contradiction #4: People have free-will / No one is good, and therefore, incapable of choosing good actions themselves

Contradiction #5: God chose for Adam to sin in order to heighten his glory / God did not cause Adam to sin

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ok but If you ask those parents if they wish he were never born what would they say? They experienced love and the child did also, I am willing to bet they did not regret their child so why are you saying it is evil for their child to have existed?

I'm not saying the existence of suffering makes God evil. My nephew's parents loved him and never thought he should die or suffer, but God allowed the child to suffer a surplus of suffering. God may love 'All children', but this one suffered though in general not all do. The parents loved this boy in a way God did not -- in a human way. God was unmoved by prayer, would not heal the child, did not shield him from terrible suffering, did not take suggestions or trades or pleadings. Perhaps it was for a greater purpose, but it still was very impersonal. I think a personal God would have healed my nephew.

I have suffered the loss of babies also and I also believe they are in heaven and we will meet again, would I have preferred not to have been pregnant? No I would not.

The experiences of parenting are beyond words. I don't think its something I can intelligently discuss with you, or that you can express to me. First I haven't had kids and second you can't put it into words besides. There's no common frame of reference between us, so lets not pretend that there is.

I thank God that he used me to pro-create life and that life is eternal. By the way if It comforts you at all, the parents of your nephew also believe he is made whole and has no infirmities in heaven, no sufferings. It does give comfort to those in mourning, I would say you have more anguish over this then they do If they are believers.

You may remember the story of Jesus crucifixion where he asks God why he's been abandoned, but it is his joy that enables him to endure. For the joy ahead he endures the cross. That is similar to a woman in childbirth. She's suffering, and she may regret her predicament momentarily but she goes through with it. You can tell me that her suffering comes 'Because of sin in the world', but she's still suffering. You can tell me Jesus suffers to save the world, but it still hurts. Pain is personal, and God doesn't seem to feel it.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

And yet he condemns people to Hell for doing what they were meant to?

That does not make him appear a particularly good manager.

Would God and the heavenly host want to go through eternity listening to the eternal anguish of souls in hell? That seems very vindictive to me, but actually it appears to be the invention of those seeking to control a population with fear. The Bible even holds up fearing God as a requirement for salvation.

If there is a God and an afterlife, wouldn't it make more sense to just relegate corrupt souls to oblivion? In fact, I believe we judge ourselves. Judgement would be to be placed in the light of truth, making us unable to lie to ourselves, and that light would be unavoidably painful for some. Those faced with having corrupt, evil souls would find it to be unbearable torment and choose to push the "oblivion button" themselves--making God merciful rather than vengeful.

And, if we have free will as I'm sure we must, we don't do what we were meant to do, we do what we choose to do.

 

[Desert Snake]

This.

I have to disagree........strongly. I suspect that you do to, actually, at least in a way, because you practice Buddhism...that's not secular morality

 

[LuisDantas]

I have to disagree........strongly. I suspect that you do to, actually, at least in a way, because you practice Buddhism...that's not secular morality

I beg your pardon?

ETA: I can't begin to guess why you would disagree, but it is only sensible - from both a secular and a religious standpoint - to acknowledge and adapt to social changes and the development of knowledge of social sciences.

Sure, it is a bit easier to do when one is not following an Abrahamic belief, but even those should be practiced with discernment instead of blind faith.

 

[Muffled]

I say that God does not ordain evil nor is He the author of it.

Hoever God may have been punishing at least one person in the trajedy for things that were done in a past life and the others were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I believe one of the comandments tells about how to lead a short life, honor your mother and father if you wish to live long; disobey this and die young in this life or the next.

 

[Muffled]

What scriptural verses support this argument? It's been a while since I read the bible but I don't remember free will or original sin anywhere in there.

If anything everything is preordained, which makes God even more evil.

I agree that everything may be pre-ordained but I believe it is an assumption on your part that God pre-ordains everything.

Free will is implied by the commandments. If God were simply pulling the strings He woudn't need to command.

I believe the progenitors of Adam's race, Adam and Eve committed the first sins of their race so it would be considered as the origen of sin for their race.

 

[Muffled]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

When I was a teenager the Psalms were read every morning by a student volunteer in home room. Not one reading helped me develop faith in God or lead me to salvation. Also I believe God can't be legally kept out of school, He just can't be government mandated.

With God all things are possible. There was a case of one twin dieing and another twin surviving.