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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There is one a handful of cases where he is claimed to have done so. The flood and wars constitute virtually all of them. The nation with the greatest freedom also has the greatest incarceration rate. He must judge so many of us because so many of us merit it. We are talking about he Aztecs and you are making arbitrary complaints about ambiguous amounts and frequencies. How do you debate with "why do people suck". It is too ambiguous and arbitrary to discuss.
Handful of cases? He supposedly destroyed the entire population of the earth. He supposedly sent humans to pillage, kill, torture and rape their neighbours. He supposedly sends people like Cortez and his army to “redeem” people who were just as sinful as they were. He supposedly sets floods and all kinds of natural disasters upon us to punish us for being gay and other such nonsense.
By what standard has God killed a bunch of us over and over. If you added up everyone he killed din the Bible it would not equal the last decades aids deaths in this country alone, the last decades abortions, the last years acts of violence. We deserve far far worse than we get. I said God has exhibited the greatest love AND he has exhibited sever retribution. How is one it's opposite? How is either unjustified?
White noise and conjecture. You have no way of demonstrating such a thing.
In what way would any action against the Aztecs have been too severe if he actually had anything to do with it?
How does killing people redeem them and restore sanity? That’s what I want to know.
This was the most generalized argument I have ever seen. Why did not you just ask why is God so mean?
I’d rather find out why you think a being that acts immorally is some kind of beacon of morality?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What if you had the power to go back and guide baby Hitler onto a different path without killing him?


If someone was "meant to do great evil", who would have decided that this is what they were "meant" to do but God?


I have enough power of reason to realize that, by definition, "a perfect being with unlimited power" wouldn't be constrained by the limitations that cause us to make imperfect compromises.

That's the difference between humanity and God: a human parent might choose to vaccinate their baby despite the pain it will cause because he has no way to get the good of the vaccine without the bad of the pain. If the parent had the option of a painless vaccine, he would have chosen it. He didn't because it was beyond his power.

But for God, nothing is beyond his power. No compromises are necessary. There's no such thing as an unfortunate side effect, because God has the power to avoid any side effect while still achieving his goal. Every action of an omnipotent God is necessarily deliberate and willful.

That's the difference. God wouldn't kill baby Hitler because God could stop the Holocaust without killing anyone. If he couldn't have done this, then God is something other than the "perfect being with unlimited power" you say he is.

:yes:
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How can you learn from trial and error when you have no basis for knowing what action is wrong and which right. You are simply redefining morality as you wish it to mean. You are probably using some kind of human flourishing foundation which you can't possibly know is true. It is actual a form of species that is just as immoral as racism would be. No mater what kind of arbitrary standard you are inventing for morality and no matter what language you are trying to cloth fantasy it would all be on one side of an equality with opinion and preference on the other side. You have said nothing about morality, you have only given estimation about an arbitrary system of ethics.

Tell me again, how it is you distinguish right from wrong and how you know the criteria is correct?


Says the person who agrees we should deny the right to life in the womb by the hundreds of millions and basis it on a supposed right you demand for yourself but you deny to those that are killed.


You can't be in favor of industrial scale systematic death for the most innocent lives that exist and condemn any other moral action whatever. Things do not get any more hypocritical.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how obedience to authority equates to any kind of moral system at all. What's more arbitrary than that?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I am not discussing my morality. I am discussing morality in general.

The argument goes like this.

1. If objective morals exist God must exist (no matter whether my morality lines up with it or not).
2. Most people believe objective right and wrong exist.
3. That can't be true unless a transcendent standard exists.
4. transcendent standards require transcendent sources.
5. The only known supernatural or transcendent concept or being believed to exist is God.

This is a conditional and propositional deduction. It is not an absolute statement of certainty.

It is valid to believe actual moral truths do not exist. It is valid to believe they do. It is not valid to believe they exist, yet God insist does not.

My personal moral code is not really relevant to this matter.

Can you demonstrate these premises?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I am not discussing my morality. I am discussing morality in general.

The argument goes like this.

1. If objective morals exist God must exist (no matter whether my morality lines up with it or not).
2. Most people believe objective right and wrong exist.
3. That can't be true unless a transcendent standard exists.
4. transcendent standards require transcendent sources.
5. The only known supernatural or transcendent concept or being believed to exist is God.

This is a conditional and propositional deduction. It is not an absolute statement of certainty.

It is valid to believe actual moral truths do not exist. It is valid to believe they do. It is not valid to believe they exist, yet God insist does not.

My personal moral code is not really relevant to this matter.

Why do you think your personal moral code is irrelevant to the matter?
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Let me state the argument as it exists today if you wish to discuss it.

1. Do you or anyone believes a single action is objectively wrong? Almost everyone does. Even Hitler and Stalin believed actual wrongs existed. It does not matter for this argument what those wrongs are.

Stalin and Hitler believed it was morally accepted to kill others in accordance to their desires. Morality is not based upon desire it is based upon effect.

2. They only actually exist if a transcendent standard does as well.

Says who? How can you come to this conclusion
3. A transcendent standard only exists if God exists.

I am a Deist and I specifically am a gnostic about this. I do not believe morality comes from god at all.

You also say your morality is based upon god yet you have the ability to deny evils designated by your god. Logical absurdity kiddo.

This argument has no flaw. It states absolutes. Even the atheist scholars who know their business admit this. They almost all claim morality does not exist objectively, because it can't without the God they deny.

I canot believe you just said that :facepalm:. You WANT objective morality to exist so you use a method for it to subjectively exist.

Objective morality does not exist and using a skydaddy does not change that if that specific god is created by man, which in Christianity's case it is.

Do you find slavery morally wrong?

You must choose one of two possible truths.

1. No absolute morality exists. This requires no God.

Wrong, I am living proof of the opposite of this.
2. Absolute wrong, right, evil and good exist. This can't possibly be true if God does not.

Wrong again. You just wish that this was true. It is like prayer, no different fundamentally.

You want objective orals to exist yet Christianity is plagued with genocide and harm the very minute you compared it to Hinduism.

Now that I have kind of fleshed out what the argument is you may restate what you think is incorrect within it. Keep in mind you must provide foundations and rational reasons if you think any of those claims are wrong.

Morality cannot exist without others of the same kind. Morality is nothing but a way of coping with others, this is why Humanism exists.

A type of morality can exist in Christianity because this morality is based upon Christian theology but not everyone is Christian and not all Christian old the same morality.

We as humans do not share the same languages, cultures or likenesses of other humans so we have different moral standards but certain parts of our moral compasses are very objective in nature.

Murder, sex and theft are all things we regard as wrong the vast majority of the time no matter the cultural differences
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I am not discussing my morality. I am discussing morality in general.

Your moral code is VERY much relevant to this matter.

DO you believe slavery is wrong? do you believe genocide is wrong? Do you believe rape is wrong?

The argument goes like this.

1. If objective morals exist God must exist (no matter whether my morality lines up with it or not).
2. Most people believe objective right and wrong exist.
3. That can't be true unless a transcendent standard exists.
4. transcendent standards require transcendent sources.
5. The only known supernatural or transcendent concept or being believed to exist is God.

This is a conditional and propositional deduction. It is not an absolute statement of certainty.

It is valid to believe actual moral truths do not exist. It is valid to believe they do. It is not valid to believe they exist, yet God insist does not.

My personal moral code is not really relevant to this matter.

Stop avoiding questions and tell me how you define the moral acceptability of rape, slavery and genocide.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
We all learn our evolved "morals and ethics," the exact same way. We learn over time through trial and error. Then religions like the Abrahamic, step in, and people get murdered for holding other beliefs. Such religions are just plain evil.
How can you learn from trial and error when you have no basis for knowing what action is wrong and which right. You are simply redefining morality as you wish it to mean. You are probably using some kind of human flourishing foundation which you can't possibly know is true. It is actual a form of species that is just as immoral as racism would be. No mater what kind of arbitrary standard you are inventing for morality and no matter what language you are trying to cloth fantasy it would all be on one side of an equality with opinion and preference on the other side. You have said nothing about morality, you have only given estimation about an arbitrary system of ethics.

Tell me again, how it is you distinguish right from wrong and how you know the criteria is correct?


Says the person who agrees we should deny the right to life in the womb by the hundreds of millions and basis it on a supposed right you demand for yourself but you deny to those that are killed.


You can't be in favor of industrial scale systematic death for the most innocent lives that exist and condemn any other moral action whatever. Things do not get any more hypocritical.

LOL! The answer is exactly the same as the last couple of times we have had this conversation.


We evolved, and so did "morals" and "ethics," so people could began to live together in groups without killing each other. Hence what is moral and ethical in one place, is not necessarily taught to be so in another. This is proof that it happens this way. There is no proof of your YHVH, let alone that some ancient tribal group has God's moral and ethical laws. We can see the evolution of such when we read the laws of other ancient cultures.


How do I distinguish right and wrong; - the same way everyone else does - what I learned from my culture - studying the reasoned out laws they came up with, and changed over time with new info - my own growing consciousness about self and other - and how I would want to be treated.


Abortion has nothing to do with this conversation - however, I'll say it again, - any part of me is ME until birth-autonomy and the breath of life.



*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Please supply links to these claims. Conquistador literature went through several stages. It was accurately recorded by people who were there in most cases at one time. Soon after conquistadors became lionized and were claimed to have done all sorts of brave and noble deeds by amplifying what actually occurred. Then it became fashionable to denounce them as barbarian conquerors for a period of time based on garbage that never took place. It appears at least most of your sources came from this third and least accurate period.

You keep typing things that do not appear in any of the most reliable and exhaustive sources on Cortez. Why should I believe them. I need sources.

That is not even a little bit true.

The official version, as presented by Cortés and Díaz and accepted by many later commentators, is that the Aztecs ordered the Cholulans to prepare a trap. The conquistadors were housed in a palace in the town. They were fed and treated well on the first day, but after a couple of days the food stopped coming. A Cholulan woman told La Malinche that the Spaniards were to be murdered the next day, except for those who would be taken back to Tenochtitlan for sacrifice, and that she should escape and save herself. Instead, she told Cortés. The next day, convinced that they were slated to be the victims of a treacherous (from their point of view) betrayal, the Spaniards turned the tables on the Cholulans and massacred about ten per cent of the city's population.
Massacre at Cholula - Conquest of Mexico

Since you are simply going to deny this for convenience even though the sources for this account are the best possible let me illustrate more reasons to believe this account.

1. Cortez and all other conquerors benefit far more from peaceful co-operation than direct opposition.
2. The Spaniards were outnumbered thousands to one. You do not risk angering the general population when that weak.
3. You need to maintain what little troops you have and not recklessly endanger them for no high return on the investment.
4. This pattern of the Mexican tribes attempting to lure the Spaniards into a trap based on instigations from Montezuma is perfectly consistent. He wanted someone else to take them on because he was afraid of them, he arm twisted his neighbors constantly.

Keep in mind I am not attempting to suggest Cortez was a great moral example. I am only trying to establish what actually occurred versus the hyperbolic revisionist history stuff.


Partially true. This event was the result of constant harassment and betrayal by several tribes. He invited all their chiefs to a meeting and had them all killed as a military necessity. You must also evaluate Cortez in the context of his mission and role. He was a military commander who was commanded to win above all else. That does not make his actions moral but they do explain them in ways other than sheer brutality for it's own sake.


Not true at all. The forces were sent by the Governor of Cuba which Cortez had personally offended in some way. It was not the mission of the Church nor of the crowns instigation. It was petty battle of insults and greed. Cortez did no great slaughter to any Spanish force. He couldn't he had less than 200 men. He rode straight into the commanders quarters and either killed or captured him. He then made a speech that appealed to greed and the entire force joined him voluntarily. There was no slaughter of any kind involved.

No he did not. He lived in a palace supplied by Montezuma on his entrance. Much later he was driven out by massed crowds and lost many men at night. It is called La Noche Triste (sad night). He literally sat under a tree and wept for hours over his men. After he recovered and after savage battles he demolished the city block by block because it was used for cover by the Aztec's attacking him. Your confusing an act of military necessity with barbarity. He later spent money from his own estate to rebuild the city.

This one is complete garbage.

I am quite sure sexual advantage was taken at times. There however was never any systematic sex slave events that ever occurred.

He defended the Aztec's against the crown, He rebuilt Tenochtitlan from his own pocket. He stopped abuses by later Spanish dignitaries. The most accurate way to describe Cortez is as follows:

1. Sincerely tried to accomplish works for God.
2. Sincerely desired gold at almost any cost.
3. He never acted for the sake of brutality alone. Many times he did whatever was available to reduce loss of life.
4. However he would do anything necessary to win and survive.

He is a very contradictory person who did great and noble acts and terribly brutal acts. My problem has only been with your inaccurate historical claims. There are plenty of accurate examples of brutality concerning Cortez. You do not need these hyperbolic distortions and out right fabrications.


Cortez's men killed less than 5000 people al together. It was the enemies of Montezuma that had been prayed on by him for decades that did almost all the killing and almost al the brutality. They took the opportunity for revenge that is unimaginable when they saw the Spaniards could possibly stand up to him. An educated guess would be that the Aztec's killed hundreds of thousands of their neighbors, Cortez and his men killed less than 5000 people all together. Mexican tribes abused by the Aztec's killed maybe a hundred thousand Aztec's. Small pox killed tens of millions. Your data is absurdly inaccurate. Cortez never had more than two dozen horses and a thousand men. It is physically impossible for him to do any thing like you claim.


All this aside my purpose is not to defend Cortez. It was primarily to suggest that there is many reasons to believe God did not forget about the Aztec's and what they had done and to get historical data in it's proper and accurate context.

If you actually care about what actually occurred then read Cortez by John Stevens Cabbot. It is a remarkable detailed and critical account of Cortez's actions given by an honest and fair handed eye witness to almost all of the actual events themselves. He was critical where appropriate and supportive where appropriate.


You are free to believe your ancient Christian Conquerors. I will believe the natives, and the friars whom chose to write the real story.


And NO, I m not going to look for links for you. I provided the Book and author.


*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Those religions are adding far more people to their ranks than they are loosing. What the heck are you talking about? Those faiths include more that 1 out of every 2 people on Earth and all three are growing.


Christianity

25,210,195

growth rate - 1.36%


Islam

22,588,676

growth rate - 2.13%




Judaism

124,515

growth rate - 0.91%


Religion Statistics by Growth Rate- ReligionFacts


You might as well have made an argument based on Wal-Mart's decline in the last decade. This was no more true than you claims about Cortez which I intend to get to soon.


It is a noted FACT among those doing statistics, that Christian religion stats are off - because people that move from one denomination to another, are being counted by both (or more) groups. Also noted - people like myself whom were born into Christian families - baptized into the faith - but no longer believe in such, - are still counted for these stats. In other words they don't come off the church records.


Muslim stats would also fall into question outside free countries, as it could fall under coerced religion. Fear of death - if you don't stay in your family religion, etc.


"The American Religious Identification Survey gave nonreligious groups the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers: 14.3 million (8.4% of the population) to 29.4 million (14.1% of the population) for the period 1990–2001 in the U.S."

"One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling." Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, January 27, 2011


Wicca average annual growth of 143% for the period 1990 to 2001. American Religious survey Study, The Graduate Center of the City University of New York

And that is just one of the Pagan religions - which these studies usually ignore.



*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
These are the cop-outs phrases of Abrahamic believers.
Actually they are the state of moral philosophy today. I did not get one word in my claim from the Bible or the Quran. BTW it is very easy to prove me wrong. Simply supply the criteria which are capable of accurately judging God.
...



LOL! There is no criteria because there is no proof of the existence of a God.


It is like asking us to supply the criteria which are capable of accurately judging the moral character of Flying Pink Unicorns.


We are discussing a book written by desert people thousands of years ago, and their beliefs. Nothing more. You believing that their God idea exists - does not make it so.



*
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
LOL! The answer is exactly the same as the last couple of times we have had this conversation.
Even if it is the same it is not simple. You have no absolute basis. You have a moving, arbitrary, and ambiguous basis. That is why I need it restated. It is a shape shifting entity with nothing at it's core. No matter what language you use to dress it up in it equals arbitrary opinion and preference. I will use opinion and preference as I discuss your moral foundations unless you can supply a better description. Your moral foundations have no connection with moral truth what so ever. If they have any commonality it is incidental. When I say murder is wrong if my world view is correct, then murder is actually wrong. When you say murder is wrong you mean it is socially unfashionable, it is against popular opinion, or it offends some arbitrary standard about human flourishing or least suffering that was invented out of thin air.


We evolved, and so did "morals" and "ethics," so people could began to live together in groups without killing each other. Hence what is moral and ethical in one place, is not necessarily taught to be so in another. This is proof that it happens this way. There is no proof of your YHVH, let alone that some ancient tribal group has God's moral and ethical laws. We can see the evolution of such when we read the laws of other ancient cultures.
Who's standards are you using. Murder was wrong in some cultures 5000 years ago and right in some cultures today. Is that your evolution. Some cultures love their neighbors today and some eat their neighbors today. Who's evolution are you talking about? 3000 years ago the Hebrews is all life had value and is precious, as little as 300 years ago our founding fathers said they same. Today liberals systematically end human lives in the womb on an industrial scale but are offended by the execution of a convicted killer. That is de-evolution not evolution. The existence of a variation in ethics is no more proof that morality (in totality has evolved). It is proof of two things. 1. People universally believe some things are actually and objectively wrong. 2. That people do not agree on what they are but do agree what 90% of them are. That proves we need a higher standard for humanity than humanity.

Before I object too much let me agree with part of what you say. I agree that without an objective standard morals are not tethered to anything and do evolve, devolve, and float around based on arbitrary social norms at the time. I do not think secular morality has evolved (gotten better, in general), but I do thing it changes constantly (sometimes in diabolical directions and sometimes in good directions). The problem is no actual way to know which is which. This dooms us to constant repetition without hope for general betterment. However with those that believe in a God morals have the capacity to rise above human opinion and preference. That is kind of my point. Your moral system is either right be accident or untrue by definition. You can say Murder is wrong but you have no foundation that makes that statement true. The next generation is free to say murder is just fine because no transcendent that prevents it. I can say Murder is wrong and if God exists that is an absolute truth. The latter produces or can produce a just society with common ideals. The former produces a non-moral (moral) system that is whatever the strongest group decides it is.

How do I distinguish right and wrong; - the same way everyone else does - what I learned from my culture - studying the reasoned out laws they came up with, and changed over time with new info - my own growing consciousness about self and other - and how I would want to be treated.
Since what you learned from your culture is equal to what you learned fro other people, then which people were right. If your using popular opinion then your moral system would have been completely different and cruel if you were born in 1925 Germany, 1920 Japan, 1930 USSR, or a thousand other places and times. So whether you are cruel or kind is dependent only on when and where you are born. That is the greatest moral failure a system can have. Hitler and John Wayne Gacey were not actually doing anything wrong in your view, they were only acted socially unfashionable. God help us.


Abortion has nothing to do with this conversation - however, I'll say it again, - any part of me is ME until birth-autonomy and the breath of life.
1. I use abortion all the time because it is the most glaring failure and hypocrisy of secular morality. It is just an extreme example used to make a point.
2. You have no foundation to make your claims to rights over organs or appendages true. I do. I however grant that you have that right to make a point.
3. You are taking the very right (and in fact all rights) from a life that you demand for yourself. You demand rights to your body at the exact same time you deny them to the fetus. You have no actual foundation nor even a way to ever have one that separates the time the fetus has no rights from the time it does. Your just choosing what ever standard is convenient for you because you have no transcendent standard. This is about as glaring a failure as a system can exhibit.
4. If someone were to have asked me what is the greatest secular failure a secular moral system could exhibit. I would have answered one that produces massive death among the most innocent group of lives possible on a large scale, which is clothed in some kind of non-existent sovereign right for one group but which is denied to the other helpless group, one which arises from pure convenience, and one which has no actual real justification possible. IOW the greatest possible evidence of secular moral failure is abortion.
5. I could use a thousand examples of secular moral failure but if I am talking to a person who cannot acknowledge it's most abject failure what would be the point.

Your moral system is based on whims and arbitrary preferences and opinion. That is about the most immoral foundation possible, and is the worst methodology to achieve a just society I could even theoretically construct.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You are free to believe your ancient Christian Conquerors. I will believe the natives, and the friars whom chose to write the real story.

I am free to believe my Christian conquistadors, what?

My primary source is the friar that was there. It is the most universally recognized authoritative account of the conquest and it's accuracy is legendary. I bet you have never cracked the book (and probably have never even seen it, apparently).

I do not consider conquests as arising from Christian doctrine. My claim was that God either passively or actively may have used what Cortez did to achieve and end result. There is not one verse in the NT that justifies conquest as Cortez exemplified. I like Cortez as a military leader. He did great things (or sincerely believed he did) for God, and he did horrible things as well. His status as a Christian or moral human is not what interests me about him. My main point was you lack of historical accuracy in the condemnation of him. You do not even need fabrications. There are plenty of actual well established horrible things he did if desired.

I have no interest in Christian conquests as doctrinally justified event. I do not believe they are justified by Christ (though they MAY be used by God).


And NO, I m not going to look for links for you. I provided the Book and author.
Your list crumbled so totally and disintegrated so completely with the slightest research it is no longer necessary.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
It is a noted FACT among those doing statistics, that Christian religion stats are off - because people that move from one denomination to another, are being counted by both (or more) groups. Also noted - people like myself whom were born into Christian families - baptized into the faith - but no longer believe in such, - are still counted for these stats. In other words they don't come off the church records.


Muslim stats would also fall into question outside free countries, as it could fall under coerced religion. Fear of death - if you don't stay in your family religion, etc.


"The American Religious Identification Survey gave nonreligious groups the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers: 14.3 million (8.4% of the population) to 29.4 million (14.1% of the population) for the period 1990–2001 in the U.S."

"One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling." Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, January 27, 2011


Wicca average annual growth of 143% for the period 1990 to 2001. American Religious survey Study, The Graduate Center of the City University of New York

And that is just one of the Pagan religions - which these studies usually ignore.



*
It is well known that any stats you generate I do not like are wrong. Hey, I like that. I do not have to construct an argument. I do not have to justify a claim to knowledge, I do not even have to be telling the truth. How convenient.

The original claim was that Abrahamic religions are being abandoned in huge numbers. If I give secular statistics from reputable sources that show they are actually growing by huge numbers will you admit it and abandon the claim?

Your use of Wiccan and other stats shows that you are not training in statistics.

1. Wiccan is a tiny faith, any increase produces huge numbers in percent of increases, even when those numbers are negligible in actual converts. This is statistic freshman stuff here.
2. Wicca added about 100,000 members in the last decade. Christianity added about 250, million over the same period.
3. Whatever Wicca has or has not done has absolutely nothing to do with my post or the one I responded to.
4. The growth rates in non-religious groups also have nothing to do with my post.
5. In fact the only relevant statistics there are, were the three I gave. If your attempting to pile unrelated statistics on top of a wrong initial claim your only digging the hole deeper. Don't compound an error with irrelevant errors.


I will discuss statistics in any way you wish. However the issue that was on the table was a claim that there is some kind of mass exodus from the Abrahamic faiths, when in fact all three are growing. Now if you will concede the point we can move on. If you will concede it provided known to be reliable statistics we can move on. We can even change subjects and still use statistics. What I will not do is allow a statement that was completely wrong (as were probably every single historical claim about Cortez you made) to stand, based on irrelevant statistics and a preemptive denial of reliable stats, that have nothing to do with what was being discussed.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
[/COLOR][/B]


LOL! There is no criteria because there is no proof of the existence of a God.
Let me give you some advice, that will not be taken. Being un-educated in an area is no moral fault. Being ignorant is human. Even making claims that are untrue is expected and no big deal. However when Ignorance or a lack of familiarity produces contrived information, preemptive denials of reliable data, and will not recognize the abject failure of it's own case things start to get ugly.

When a person is wrong, attempts to defend being wrong after proof or strong evidence has been given to show them wrong, and then to pile it on uses pop culture acronyms to insinuate the proof they were wrong is silly then that is lethal to their credibility, and you have a full fledged liberal at hand.

Proof of God has nothing to do with anything I said. Since you claim God is evil then you must have some standard by which you know this to be actually true. LOL! is not a standard, irrelevant statistics is not a standard, denial of accurate statistics is not a standard, and contrived stories about Cortez that contradict the reliable accounts of even hostile eye witnesses is not a standard.

Is there one? It was your claim not mine? It is your burden, not mine, or even God's.




It is like asking us to supply the criteria which are capable of accurately judging the moral character of Flying Pink Unicorns.
I did not call pink unicorns evil. If I did you can bet I would have a standard capable of making that judgment. To call X evil then say X does not exist is self contradictory.


We are discussing a book written by desert people thousands of years ago, and their beliefs. Nothing more. You believing that their God idea exists - does not make it so.
That same book has been evaluated by those experts most able to know (the greatest experts on testimony and evidence in history) and have said it meets every standard in modern law and the historical method for reliable testimony. Add to this that billions have experienced the truth of what it claims in ways just as real (and in many cases far more real) than any scientists has for any claim. These and several thousands more pieces of evidence are what has made a story about a man who worked for 3 years in a minor Roman backwater the most important document in human history. Your colorization for convenience of what you apparently do not understand is disingenuous, unjustifiable, and also typical. In my experience the more liberal a person (or their claims) are the more they hate reality and substitute their own, and the less likely they would ever admit it. Once you start off on the wrong side of reality the use of dishonorable argumentation becomes an absolute necessity.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Even if it is the same it is not simple. You have no absolute basis. You have a moving, arbitrary, and ambiguous basis. That is why I need it restated. It is a shape shifting entity with nothing at it's core. No matter what language you use to dress it up in it equals arbitrary opinion and preference. I will use opinion and preference as I discuss your moral foundations unless you can supply a better description. Your moral foundations have no connection with moral truth what so ever. If they have any commonality it is incidental. When I say murder is wrong if my world view is correct, then murder is actually wrong. When you say murder is wrong you mean it is socially unfashionable, it is against popular opinion, or it offends some arbitrary standard about human flourishing or least suffering that was invented out of thin air.
What is arbitrary about using reason to weigh out and analyze the consequences of possible actions? That strikes me as being the opposite of arbitrary.

What does strike me as arbitrary is following the orders of an authority figure just because that authority figure says so. And how on earth is this considered moral?
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
You are free to believe your ancient Christian Conquerors. I will believe the natives, and the friars whom chose to write the real story.
I am free to believe my Christian conquistadors, what?

My primary source is the friar that was there. It is the most universally recognized authoritative account of the conquest and it's accuracy is legendary. I bet you have never cracked the book (and probably have never even seen it, apparently).


Obviously there was more then one Friar. We are talking years here.There are two sides to this story - the Christian conquerors' side, - and native info, with a few Friars not afraid to write truth, side. I believe the natives.

I do not consider conquests as arising from Christian doctrine. My claim was that God either passively or actively may have used what Cortez did to achieve and end result. There is not one verse in the NT that justifies conquest as Cortez exemplified. I like Cortez as a military leader. He did great things (or sincerely believed he did) for God, and he did horrible things as well. His status as a Christian or moral human is not what interests me about him. My main point was you lack of historical accuracy in the condemnation of him. You do not even need fabrications. There are plenty of actual well established horrible things he did if desired.

I have no interest in Christian conquests as doctrinally justified event. I do not believe they are justified by Christ (though they MAY be used by God).

There is NO fabrication in what I wrote. The information is in the books as stated.

Cortez was a lying, cheating, torturing, raping, murdering, nasty individual. What is written about him tells us this.

Hell, he started this with mutiny - when he sailed off with ships and men belonging to Velasquez, - when Velasquez found there to be problems with him. As I'm sure you know, he made it impossible for his own people to leave or escape. He also killed his own countrymen that were sent to reel him back in. They enslaved and raped native women. Tortured and murdered the Nobles.


Your list crumbled so totally and disintegrated so completely with the slightest research it is no longer necessary.


Absolute BULL on your part. If you have studied him, as you say you have, then you would know about these works, and a lot of these things that he did.




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