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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You know, I think it was family guy, or something similar that asked the question

"If you went back in time, And found baby Hitler, Would you kill him to save 6 million lives?"

It's an interesting question, because you know no matter what, This baby will grow up to kill millions of people. Me, personally, I wouldn't because I don't believe in ever killing anyone for any reason. However, I'm sure there are many people who would do so.

So then you must ask, God, Who can see the future, Allows killing of people you deem 'innocent' but how would you know? What if they were meant to do great evil?

Who are you to judge God, A perfect being with unlimited power?
You're just a fallible human, With sin in your heart like the rest of us.
Where do you get off saying what God should and should not do, When you yourself are capable of evil, Judging a God who is not.

You live off borrowed morals and ethics, Passed down and programmed into your brain by society.

So please, Tell me, Why do you think you're capable of saying what is right or wrong for God to do?


First let me say - these are just stories - no proof.


Now, why people would follow this God, when they are quite capable of reading the stories, which make him appear two-faced, evil at times, and down right psycho, is beyond me.


I think a good portion of the problem is that the majority don't actually study what the Bible says. They just go to church, and listen to the redacted version.



*
 

Thana

Lady
First let me say - these are just stories - no proof.


Now, why people would follow this God, when they are quite capable of reading the stories, which make him appear two-faced, evil at times, and down right psycho, is beyond me.


I think a good portion of the problem is that the majority don't actually study what the Bible says. They just go to church, and listen to the redacted version.



*

You didn't answer my question,
And I'm not interested in listening to bible bashing.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You didn't answer my question,
And I'm not interested in listening to bible bashing.

You know, I think it was family guy, or something similar that asked the question

"If you went back in time, And found baby Hitler, Would you kill him to save 6 million lives?"

It's an interesting question, because you know no matter what, This baby will grow up to kill millions of people. Me, personally, I wouldn't because I don't believe in ever killing anyone for any reason. However, I'm sure there are many people who would do so.


Absolutely not. Doing such could set in motion far greater consequences.

So then you must ask, God, Who can see the future, Allows killing of people you deem 'innocent' but how would you know? What if they were meant to do great evil?


There is no proof of God. Nor is your idea of a human-like, murdering, angry, jealous, "God," the only idea of God out there. Murdering innocents, and his own people - whom use their free-will - to choose a different God, makes for a "EVIL HUMAN GOD," in my opinion.


Who are you to judge God, A perfect being with unlimited power?
You're just a fallible human, With sin in your heart like the rest of us.
Where do you get off saying what God should and should not do, When you yourself are capable of evil, Judging a God who is not.


LOL! YHVH - murderer - Jealous - angry - cause of the killing of Job's family for a *******-match - etc - is very obviously not a perfect God.


You live off borrowed morals and ethics, Passed down and programmed into your brain by society.

So please, Tell me, Why do you think you're capable of saying what is right or wrong for God to do?


We all learn our evolved "morals and ethics," the exact same way. We learn over time through trial and error. Then religions like the Abrahamic, step in, and people get murdered for holding other beliefs. Such religions are just plain evil.


I am totally amazed when you folks try to defend the awful acts your Bible says YHVH and his people committed.




*
 

Thana

Lady
We all learn our evolved "morals and ethics," the exact same way. We learn over time through trial and error. Then religions like the Abrahamic, step in, and people get murdered for holding other beliefs. Such religions are just plain evil.


I am totally amazed when you folks try to defend the awful acts your Bible says YHVH and his people committed.




*


Okie dokie then.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
We all learn our evolved "morals and ethics," the exact same way. We learn over time through trial and error. Then religions like the Abrahamic, step in, and people get murdered for holding other beliefs. Such religions are just plain evil.
How can you learn from trial and error when you have no basis for knowing what action is wrong and which right. You are simply redefining morality as you wish it to mean. You are probably using some kind of human flourishing foundation which you can't possibly know is true. It is actual a form of species that is just as immoral as racism would be. No mater what kind of arbitrary standard you are inventing for morality and no matter what language you are trying to cloth fantasy it would all be on one side of an equality with opinion and preference on the other side. You have said nothing about morality, you have only given estimation about an arbitrary system of ethics.

Tell me again, how it is you distinguish right from wrong and how you know the criteria is correct?


I am totally amazed when you folks try to defend the awful acts your Bible says YHVH and his people committed.
Says the person who agrees we should deny the right to life in the womb by the hundreds of millions and basis it on a supposed right you demand for yourself but you deny to those that are killed.


You can't be in favor of industrial scale systematic death for the most innocent lives that exist and condemn any other moral action whatever. Things do not get any more hypocritical.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
And you folks wonder why so many people are moving away from the religions of Abraham.


*
Those religions are adding far more people to their ranks than they are loosing. What the heck are you talking about? Those faiths include more that 1 out of every 2 people on Earth and all three are growing.


Christianity

25,210,195

growth rate - 1.36%


Islam

22,588,676

growth rate - 2.13%




Judaism

124,515

growth rate - 0.91%


Religion Statistics by Growth Rate- ReligionFacts


You might as well have made an argument based on Wal-Mart's decline in the last decade. This was no more true than you claims about Cortez which I intend to get to soon.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
These are the cop-outs phrases of Abrahamic believers.
Actually they are the state of moral philosophy today. I did not get one word in my claim from the Bible or the Quran. BTW it is very easy to prove me wrong. Simply supply the criteria which are capable of accurately judging God.


This is the EXACT SAME reasoning that allows Muslim Fundamentalists to bomb indiscriminately. Anyone that dies in the bombing does so at God's will, and therefore it is Just.
I did not mention anything that can be extrapolated to a human. Will you stick to what I says and quit distorting it into something you mistakenly think you have a better chance of countering. I was discussing what God does not what a human does. Their is a slight difference between the two.

"Your God kills innocent babies."

1. My God created those babies.
2. My God has sovereignty over those and all other lives he created.
3. My God has perfect knowledge concerning all aspects of his actions.
4. My God promises to place those children in perfect contentment for eternity without their risking being corrupted and thereby being disqualified for heaven.

5. You defend the rights of people to kill orders of magnitude more human lives who do not have any of the above aspects.

Claims do not get any more hypocritical nor absurd.

"LA-LA-LA!" fingers in brain, "When my God kills innocent babies, it is absolutely righteous."

Now on the other hand, if other Gods kill babies - They are fragging evil!!!
I did not say anything about other God's. Are you sure you even talking to me?

To teach your God is a Just God, and love, etc, - and then preach any murder of innocent babies is OK because he is God, is as has been stated, PSYCHO!!!
Then it would be the height of psychotic moral insanity to deny that God can do so but humans have some sacred right to do so.

Well I reached the end of another post and as usual no actual reasons were given that allow you to condemn a single act God has ever done. I have no idea why I even bother asking the question any longer.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
How can you learn from trial and error when you have no basis for knowing what action is wrong and which right. You are simply redefining morality as you wish it to mean. You are probably using some kind of human flourishing foundation which you can't possibly know is true. It is actual a form of species that is just as immoral as racism would be. No mater what kind of arbitrary standard you are inventing for morality and no matter what language you are trying to cloth fantasy it would all be on one side of an equality with opinion and preference on the other side. You have said nothing about morality, you have only given estimation about an arbitrary system of ethics.

Please do not use the "no morality without god" argument.

It is a baseless argument since you are assuming that morals are absolute in nature. There is no morality in religion and especially within the Bible.

God specifically says "thou shalt not murder" but is a hypocrite and commits genocide and permits the killing of others. There are NO moral absolutes in the Bible at all.

It teaches others to steal land and do heinous things and it is permissible because God says so. Moral absolutes must be absolute or else they are relative/subjective in nature.

Seriously, this is a fallacy which need not be used. The vast majority of morals are relative to an era and time and not objective.

Is loving god objective? No yet not loving him is deemed wicked and thus immoral. Secularist have always been more moral than theists for the most part throughout history. You would not have the liberties you do today if not for Thomas Jefferson and other non-Christians. Gay rights, equality, economic equality and the abandonment of slavery. Communist could not even provide equality until they removed Christianity out of the way to replace it with state atheism.

To this very day American right wing Christians despise equality and wish only to live in an immoral society dominated by themselves.

The Pope spoke of caring for the poor yet it was met with outrage. Biblical based Christianity is entirely immoral and unjust, simple as that. Very few societies find this acceptable except Christians. There is nothing objective about morality, it is just a pipe dream and when used in debating it is a straw man argument.
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
How can you learn from trial and error when you have no basis for knowing what action is wrong and which right. You are simply redefining morality as you wish it to mean. You are probably using some kind of human flourishing foundation which you can't possibly know is true. It is actual a form of species that is just as immoral as racism would be. No mater what kind of arbitrary standard you are inventing for morality and no matter what language you are trying to cloth fantasy it would all be on one side of an equality with opinion and preference on the other side. You have said nothing about morality, you have only given estimation about an arbitrary system of ethics.

Tell me again, how it is you distinguish right from wrong and how you know the criteria is correct?

Please tell me this. How do you know that your morality is objective and absolute?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
He was after Gold - not God.

There are little known, surviving Aztec records of Spanish atrocities, which were recorded by the monks, or translated later off of texts or stone. The Archbishop of Mexico had most of these gathered and burned to suppress the info. But some survived. Some of these are –

Fra.Bernardino de Sahugun the Codex Florentino, now in the Laurenzian Library in Florence, Italy.

Fray Toribio de Benavente, ( Motolinia,) a Franciscan monk, wrote Historia de los Indios de Nueva Espagna. Based on original descriptions of events.

Dr.Angel Maria Garibay K, translated a group of forty documents with original Aztec records, and published – The Broken Spears.

These and others describe in detail some of the atrocities the Spanish committed.
Please supply links to these claims. Conquistador literature went through several stages. It was accurately recorded by people who were there in most cases at one time. Soon after conquistadors became lionized and were claimed to have done all sorts of brave and noble deeds by amplifying what actually occurred. Then it became fashionable to denounce them as barbarian conquerors for a period of time based on garbage that never took place. It appears at least most of your sources came from this third and least accurate period.

One of the better known people they tortured with fire, was a Leader of one of the great cities. I can’t remember his name, but they tortured him over a fire, trying to get information on more gold locations. Then they strangled him.
You keep typing things that do not appear in any of the most reliable and exhaustive sources on Cortez. Why should I believe them. I need sources.

A few of the other atrocities -

Cortez demanded 2,000 Cholulans soldiers. The Aztec thought this was a peace sign and gave them to him, - instead he murdered all of them in the square.
That is not even a little bit true.

The official version, as presented by Cortés and Díaz and accepted by many later commentators, is that the Aztecs ordered the Cholulans to prepare a trap. The conquistadors were housed in a palace in the town. They were fed and treated well on the first day, but after a couple of days the food stopped coming. A Cholulan woman told La Malinche that the Spaniards were to be murdered the next day, except for those who would be taken back to Tenochtitlan for sacrifice, and that she should escape and save herself. Instead, she told Cortés. The next day, convinced that they were slated to be the victims of a treacherous (from their point of view) betrayal, the Spaniards turned the tables on the Cholulans and massacred about ten per cent of the city's population.
Massacre at Cholula - Conquest of Mexico

Since you are simply going to deny this for convenience even though the sources for this account are the best possible let me illustrate more reasons to believe this account.

1. Cortez and all other conquerors benefit far more from peaceful co-operation than direct opposition.
2. The Spaniards were outnumbered thousands to one. You do not risk angering the general population when that weak.
3. You need to maintain what little troops you have and not recklessly endanger them for no high return on the investment.
4. This pattern of the Mexican tribes attempting to lure the Spaniards into a trap based on instigations from Montezuma is perfectly consistent. He wanted someone else to take them on because he was afraid of them, he arm twisted his neighbors constantly.

Keep in mind I am not attempting to suggest Cortez was a great moral example. I am only trying to establish what actually occurred versus the hyperbolic revisionist history stuff.


He arrived in one city when hundreds of nobles were gathered for a religious event. He ordered them killed.
Partially true. This event was the result of constant harassment and betrayal by several tribes. He invited all their chiefs to a meeting and had them all killed as a military necessity. You must also evaluate Cortez in the context of his mission and role. He was a military commander who was commanded to win above all else. That does not make his actions moral but they do explain them in ways other than sheer brutality for it's own sake.


Cortez also massacred Spanish forces that were sent to reel him back in.
Not true at all. The forces were sent by the Governor of Cuba which Cortez had personally offended in some way. It was not the mission of the Church nor of the crowns instigation. It was petty battle of insults and greed. Cortez did no great slaughter to any Spanish force. He couldn't he had less than 200 men. He rode straight into the commanders quarters and either killed or captured him. He then made a speech that appealed to greed and the entire force joined him voluntarily. There was no slaughter of any kind involved.

When he entered Tenochtitlan, he ordered total destruction, city block by city block.
No he did not. He lived in a palace supplied by Montezuma on his entrance. Much later he was driven out by massed crowds and lost many men at night. It is called La Noche Triste (sad night). He literally sat under a tree and wept for hours over his men. After he recovered and after savage battles he demolished the city block by block because it was used for cover by the Aztec's attacking him. Your confusing an act of military necessity with barbarity. He later spent money from his own estate to rebuild the city.

When he didn’t have enough food, he had his soldiers kill the common folk so his native troops could cannibalize them.
This one is complete garbage.

They kept female slaves for rape use. These were branded on the face. Cortez himself had a harem of sex-slaves.
I am quite sure sexual advantage was taken at times. There however was never any systematic sex slave events that ever occurred.

It seems – with impending death – and a twitchy conscience, - he left some money in his will for his more favored sex slaves, and their children by him.
He defended the Aztec's against the crown, He rebuilt Tenochtitlan from his own pocket. He stopped abuses by later Spanish dignitaries. The most accurate way to describe Cortez is as follows:

1. Sincerely tried to accomplish works for God.
2. Sincerely desired gold at almost any cost.
3. He never acted for the sake of brutality alone. Many times he did whatever was available to reduce loss of life.
4. However he would do anything necessary to win and survive.

He is a very contradictory person who did great and noble acts and terribly brutal acts. My problem has only been with your inaccurate historical claims. There are plenty of accurate examples of brutality concerning Cortez. You do not need these hyperbolic distortions and out right fabrications.


It is speculated that Cortez killed more people in one year then the Aztec killed in 10 years. And of course the ultimate numbers of dead from Cortez, put the Aztec to shame.
Cortez's men killed less than 5000 people al together. It was the enemies of Montezuma that had been prayed on by him for decades that did almost all the killing and almost al the brutality. They took the opportunity for revenge that is unimaginable when they saw the Spaniards could possibly stand up to him. An educated guess would be that the Aztec's killed hundreds of thousands of their neighbors, Cortez and his men killed less than 5000 people all together. Mexican tribes abused by the Aztec's killed maybe a hundred thousand Aztec's. Small pox killed tens of millions. Your data is absurdly inaccurate. Cortez never had more than two dozen horses and a thousand men. It is physically impossible for him to do any thing like you claim.


All this aside my purpose is not to defend Cortez. It was primarily to suggest that there is many reasons to believe God did not forget about the Aztec's and what they had done and to get historical data in it's proper and accurate context.

If you actually care about what actually occurred then read Cortez by John Stevens Cabbot. It is a remarkable detailed and critical account of Cortez's actions given by an honest and fair handed eye witness to almost all of the actual events themselves. He was critical where appropriate and supportive where appropriate.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Thank you for that. :yes:

Since there's no way to stop people from posting made-up "history" in here, it's always nice to see someone countering it with the facts.

Those claims are 95% crap. See post # 2311 for the actual historical events.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
That is interesting... Personally, after confirming identity, I wouldn't even bat an eyelash.
Churchill actually proposed assassinating Hitler in 37' I believe. As usual the more liberals knew better and lacked moral fortitude and it cost 50 million lives.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes, because it's irrelevant to the question of what God should do.
By what criteria do the ants tell Newton how he should do calculus? If God steers everyone in whatever path you think is optimal then freewill is an illusion. This is yet another example of a false optimization fallacy. God was aware of what Hitler would have done, on what basis is his taking back the life he granted unjustified given that knowledge?


... and gives us our wants as well, right?
Rights can not be given if they are not possessed by the giver. Governments do not have a warehouse full of rights to distribute. Rights are things we are endowed with by our creator governments are not supposed to take away. They apparently think they have a warehouse full of other peoples money and are lately taking rights as fast as possible but they do not have the capacity to grant them. Government is an idea, it is actually composed of people. Which person's opinion is a better source of rights than God who actually can endow them?

And that's evil, IMO.
So you consider freewill evil? If you desire freewill then evil is a necessary derivative. I would rather have freewill in a world where it is abused than to be an automaton without choice in a world populated by robots. Love necessitates freewill. Liberals necessitate taking it away. Quit smuggling in Godly standards and criteria in a bizarre attempt to exclude God.





Take this story: Police: 10 Witness Rape, Do Nothing - CBS News

If God really exists, he witnessed this and did nothing. Is he any less culpable than the human witnesses who also stood by and did nothing?
God has forbidden rape. That is his only responsibility. Are you trying God by a races laws so corrupt we systematically kill ourselves on an industrial scale? Which man? Which law? Why do they bind God? Rape is not even actually wrong unless God exists in the first place. Natural law cannot tell us what should be done, only what is being done.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Please do not use the "no morality without god" argument.

It is a baseless argument since you are assuming that morals are absolute in nature. There is no morality in religion and especially within the Bible.

God specifically says "thou shalt not murder" but is a hypocrite and commits genocide and permits the killing of others. There are NO moral absolutes in the Bible at all.

It teaches others to steal land and do heinous things and it is permissible because God says so. Moral absolutes must be absolute or else they are relative/subjective in nature.

Seriously, this is a fallacy which need not be used. The vast majority of morals are relative to an era and time and not objective.

Is loving god objective? No yet not loving him is deemed wicked and thus immoral. Secularist have always been more moral than theists for the most part throughout history. You would not have the liberties you do today if not for Thomas Jefferson and other non-Christians. Gay rights, equality, economic equality and the abandonment of slavery. Communist could not even provide equality until they removed Christianity out of the way to replace it with state atheism.

To this very day American right wing Christians despise equality and wish only to live in an immoral society dominated by themselves.

The Pope spoke of caring for the poor yet it was met with outrage. Biblical based Christianity is entirely immoral and unjust, simple as that. Very few societies find this acceptable except Christians. There is nothing objective about morality, it is just a pipe dream and when used in debating it is a straw man argument.
Let me state the argument as it exists today if you wish to discuss it.

1. Do you or anyone believes a single action is objectively wrong? Almost everyone does. Even Hitler and Stalin believed actual wrongs existed. It does not matter for this argument what those wrongs are.
2. They only actually exist if a transcendent standard does as well.
3. A transcendent standard only exists if God exists.

This argument has no flaw. It states absolutes. Even the atheist scholars who know their business admit this. They almost all claim morality does not exist objectively, because it can't without the God they deny.

You must choose one of two possible truths.

1. No absolute morality exists. This requires no God.
2. Absolute wrong, right, evil and good exist. This can't possibly be true if God does not.

Now that I have kind of fleshed out what the argument is you may restate what you think is incorrect within it. Keep in mind you must provide foundations and rational reasons if you think any of those claims are wrong.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Please tell me this. How do you know that your morality is objective and absolute?
I am not discussing my morality. I am discussing morality in general.

The argument goes like this.

1. If objective morals exist God must exist (no matter whether my morality lines up with it or not).
2. Most people believe objective right and wrong exist.
3. That can't be true unless a transcendent standard exists.
4. transcendent standards require transcendent sources.
5. The only known supernatural or transcendent concept or being believed to exist is God.

This is a conditional and propositional deduction. It is not an absolute statement of certainty.

It is valid to believe actual moral truths do not exist. It is valid to believe they do. It is not valid to believe they exist, yet God insist does not.

My personal moral code is not really relevant to this matter.
 

adi2d

Active Member
Kinda bizarre and backwards, isn't it?

If you don't believe, you can't hear. So what could possibly lead someone to believe in the first place, if belief is a prerequisite for belief and "hearing?"

I asked for clarification on someones post and that was the answer I got. You have to believe first
Usually when I want to learn something I get my questions answered but not questions concerning God. Strange isn't it
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I of course believe he does. The point is that your moral criteria are not sufficient to judge what he does as moral or not. I am speaking theoretically not that you are so bad that you do not know what is good.
If god says something is moral, and does the opposite, then “he” is not acting morally.
The rest is white noise to me.

We have been through this. If God killed everyone on Earth how and by what criteria can you prove him wrong? God is wrathful against sin. At what level of sin is he justified to exhibit what level of wrath and how in the world do you know?
How and why would you consider god’s action in that instance to be a moral one? Because “he” says it is? That is not morality.
Since in this case we are dealing with about the most drastic level of sin possible on what basis would any retribution be unjustified?
Well let’s see, because the people “he” supposedly sent to cure this immorality were just as bad, if not worse, than the sinners they were sent to fix.
 
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