Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[SkepticThinker]

If he indeed acted as was claimed in what you agreed to you nor anyone else would be alive. Which is it?

There was very little truth in what was claimed but lets pretend they were correct. Which one can you actually prove God acted wrongly concerning?

All of these distortions of history are the exact same claim (even if they have any truth in them). God must act as you desire or you will reject him. God must punish sin in only the way you determine, he must be hands off when you demand and vengeful when you say, he must either leave you completely alone or do everything for you as you wish, he must make heaven compulsory for those who reject him at your whim, and he must punish those that do believe, if they violate your standards. This is a completely futile way to evaluate anything, though it is a very common methodology even for science and history by your side.

I simply ask that, if you're going to assert that your god is moral, that "he" actually does moral things and promotes moral things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is remarkable:

How little you know about what you condemn. It is far more remarkable how consistently you defend the infinitely worse of two parties if the other has any real or imagined connection with God. Exactly how awful is too awful a fate for those that cut the hearts out of their neighbors while still alive by the tens of thousands and raised generations of those that would have done the same? What futile standard did you invent that God violated and why should he have adhered to it?

From just memory you have defended the right to kill a child in the womb by robbing it of the exact same rights you demand as an excuse for the destruction of millions of human lives. Yet you have denied the maker of that life and the only one that can rectify the injustice the right to do so. You have taken the side of one of the most vile culture's in human history and condemned a man that spent his own money to rebuild what the Mexican's destroyed, who stopped the attempt to convert by force, who stopped human sacrifice on an industrial scale, and is the only known example of a conquest being terminated for humanitarian reasons. To make it worse you do so on the basis of stuff that no reliable source even mentions. I have read most of them, have you. 99.9% of the deaths at the time were the result of small pox. Of the .1% left the Mexican cultures who had been systematically killed and enslaved by the Aztec's killed and Cortez (whether through military necessity or brutal efficiency) killed less than 5000, almost all of which were attempting to kill him. Yes he did horrible things, no they were not on instructions from God, and no they do not include what you mentioned. When a world view forces you to defend atheistic utopias that actually killed tens of millions, abortion that has killed hundreds of millions, or cultures who tore beating hearts out by the hundreds of thousands and skinned people alive and the same world view forces you to invent atrocities that never occurred to condemn acts of people who simply claimed to believe, or the most beloved events in history instigated by God then it is time to question that view point.

Is the only description of a God that you would accept one that would obey your commands like a puppet?

He wipes out people who have reached the point of no return and you condemn him and defend them. He uses people (perhaps Cortez, I do not know) to punish those who have preyed on others in totality and you condemn him and defend them, he does not appear to act and you condemn him for that, he pays 100% of the price to redeem even those who deserve the former and you condemn him, he exhibits the highest conceivable example of love and self sacrifice and you condemn even this. I would not like to see the God your would accept nor live in a world he created.

Even if God had demanded what Cortez did in detail (and I do not claim nor think he did so) by what standard did they not earn it? If the Bible is right then judging by the results in what way are the Mexican's not infinitely better off for what happened? If the Aztecs did not deserve the greatest vengeance imaginable then who is? Hitler would have been appalled by what they did. What revelation does God violate by vengeance against evil? What aspect of justice does not mandate similar events?

Why does your god routinely have to kill large populations of people (or send others to do it) to teach us lessons? Surely there's a better way. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the highest conceivable example of love and self sacrifice translates into killing a whole bunch of people over and over.

Oh, and what price is he paying for any of it (as you indicate above)?

 

[Benoni]

Why does your god routinely have to kill large populations of people (or send others to do it) to teach us lessons? Surely there's a better way. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the highest conceivable example of love and self sacrifice translates into killing a whole bunch of people over and over.

Oh, and what price is he paying for any of it (as you indicate above)?

Its called death. When Adam died we all died. Can you stop it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Its called death. When Adam died we all died. Can you stop it?

I don't believe Adam ever existed.

 

[Benoni]

I don't believe Adam ever existed.

Awesome, does not matter if you do or don't, it is the hidden mysteries because of Adam that are so amazing

 

[SkepticThinker]

Awesome, does not matter if you do or don't, it is the hidden mysteries because of Adam that are so amazing

Um, okay.

 

[adi2d]

Awesome, does not matter if you do or don't, it is the hidden mysteries because of Adam that are so amazing

What are these 'hidden mysteries'? Pray tell

 

[Ingledsva]

It is remarkable:

How little you know about what you condemn. It is far more remarkable how consistently you defend the infinitely worse of two parties if the other has any real or imagined connection with God. Exactly how awful is too awful a fate for those that cut the hearts out of their neighbors while still alive by the tens of thousands and raised generations of those that would have done the same? What futile standard did you invent that God violated and why should he have adhered to it?

From just memory you have defended the right to kill a child in the womb by robbing it of the exact same rights you demand as an excuse for the destruction of millions of human lives. Yet you have denied the maker of that life and the only one that can rectify the injustice the right to do so. You have taken the side of one of the most vile culture's in human history and condemned a man that spent his own money to rebuild what the Mexican's destroyed, who stopped the attempt to convert by force, who stopped human sacrifice on an industrial scale, and is the only known example of a conquest being terminated for humanitarian reasons. To make it worse you do so on the basis of stuff that no reliable source even mentions. I have read most of them, have you. 99.9% of the deaths at the time were the result of small pox. Of the .1% left the Mexican cultures who had been systematically killed and enslaved by the Aztec's killed and Cortez (whether through military necessity or brutal efficiency) killed less than 5000, almost all of which were attempting to kill him. Yes he did horrible things, no they were not on instructions from God, and no they do not include what you mentioned. When a world view forces you to defend atheistic utopias that actually killed tens of millions, abortion that has killed hundreds of millions, or cultures who tore beating hearts out by the hundreds of thousands and skinned people alive and the same world view forces you to invent atrocities that never occurred to condemn acts of people who simply claimed to believe, or the most beloved events in history instigated by God then it is time to question that view point.

Is the only description of a God that you would accept one that would obey your commands like a puppet?

He wipes out people who have reached the point of no return and you condemn him and defend them. He uses people (perhaps Cortez, I do not know) to punish those who have preyed on others in totality and you condemn him and defend them, he does not appear to act and you condemn him for that, he pays 100% of the price to redeem even those who deserve the former and you condemn him, he exhibits the highest conceivable example of love and self sacrifice and you condemn even this. I would not like to see the God your would accept nor live in a world he created.

Even if God had demanded what Cortez did in detail (and I do not claim nor think he did so) by what standard did they not earn it? If the Bible is right then judging by the results in what way are the Mexican's not infinitely better off for what happened? If the Aztecs did not deserve the greatest vengeance imaginable then who is? Hitler would have been appalled by what they did. What revelation does God violate by vengeance against evil? What aspect of justice does not mandate similar events?

He was after Gold - not God.

There are little known, surviving Aztec records of Spanish atrocities, which were recorded by the monks, or translated later off of texts or stone. The Archbishop of Mexico had most of these gathered and burned to suppress the info. But some survived. Some of these are –

Fra.Bernardino de Sahugun the Codex Florentino, now in the Laurenzian Library in Florence, Italy.

Fray Toribio de Benavente, ( Motolinia,) a Franciscan monk, wrote Historia de los Indios de Nueva Espagna. Based on original descriptions of events.

Dr.Angel Maria Garibay K, translated a group of forty documents with original Aztec records, and published – The Broken Spears.

These and others describe in detail some of the atrocities the Spanish committed.

One of the better known people they tortured with fire, was a Leader of one of the great cities. I can’t remember his name, but they tortured him over a fire, trying to get information on more gold locations. Then they strangled him.

A few of the other atrocities -

Cortez demanded 2,000 Cholulans soldiers. The Aztec thought this was a peace sign and gave them to him, - instead he murdered all of them in the square.

He arrived in one city when hundreds of nobles were gathered for a religious event. He ordered them killed.

Cortez also massacred Spanish forces that were sent to reel him back in.

When he entered Tenochtitlan, he ordered total destruction, city block by city block.

When he didn’t have enough food, he had his soldiers kill the common folk so his native troops could cannibalize them.

They kept female slaves for rape use. These were branded on the face. Cortez himself had a harem of sex-slaves.

It seems – with impending death – and a twitchy conscience, - he left some money in his will for his more favored sex slaves, and their children by him.


It is speculated that Cortez killed more people in one year then the Aztec killed in 10 years. And of course the ultimate numbers of dead from Cortez, put the Aztec to shame.



*

 

[Benoni]

What are these 'hidden mysteries'? Pray tell

There are many, first of all you need to be a believer, second you need spiritual eyes to see

 

[adi2d]

There are many, first of all you need to be a believer, second you need spiritual eyes to see

Ok. Its a secret. I don't even have a decoder ring

 

[Benoni]

Ok. Its a secret. I don't even have a decoder ring

You will need a lot more then a decoder ring

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

 

[adi2d]

You will need a lot more then a decoder ring

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

I guess I need that decoder ring after all
Verses 13 and15 are addressing "they"
Verses 14 and 16 address "you". And they contradict each other

 

[Benoni]

I guess I need that decoder ring after all
Verses 13 and15 are addressing "they"
Verses 14 and 16 address "you". And they contradict each other

It was written by men

Inspired by God

All kinds of errors of men

But no errors in the hidden mysteries, the men who wrote it did know they were there

 

[Sonofason]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

I personally do not believe that there is anything that "is" evil. Evil is not something that truly exists. I understand the concept of evil, but I understand it not as something that exists, but as something that lacks something else that does truly exist, namely good. I liken evil to darkness, as many people do.

Darkness is not something that truly exists. It is merely a concept, a construct of the mind, a word we use to describe a situation wherein there is no light. Darkness is nothing more than the absence of something. It is the absence of light. If you take away light, what you have in it's place is nothing at all. What you have is no different than if you were to take away all matter. If you should take away all matter, what you have in it's place is nothing at all. What you are left with if you should take away all light is no different than what you are left with if you should take away all matter.

God is Good. All that is good is of God. This is my opinion. It's what I believe. If a mountainside should collapse on a village killing everyone in the village, nothing necessarily bad, or evil has happened. If it were God's will for a mountainside to collapse on a village killing everyone in the village, then it is not evil, or bad, but rather it is good. If it is of God, it is good. If it is not of God, it lacks good. We certainly call that bad, or evil, but as I said, it is not, for bad and evil do not exist, it is only a concept to describe situations that lack good. If what we do lacks the goodness of God, we most certainly can call ourselves evil, but that is only because we lack the goodness of God.

 

[adi2d]

It was written by men

Inspired by God

All kinds of errors of men

But no errors in the hidden mysteries, the men who wrote it did know they were there

Let me get this straight
These verses are in "error"
You knew they were in "error"
You used them to answer me
Yep. Mysterious


And my eyes are open and my ears hear

 

[Benoni]

Let me get this straight
These verses are in "error"
You knew they were in "error"
You used them to answer me
Yep. Mysterious


And my eyes are open and my ears hear

It is not the letter of the Word it is the Spirit who quickens

Are you even a chrisitian?

 

[Sonofason]

This makes God seem to be rather petty and vengeful, though. Especially so, since it's not like he's gone out of his way to make himself and his desires easily understandable, accessible, and obvious to everyone. (If this is so important to him, why would he rely on really old manuscripts, subject to different interpretations, unintelligible to people raised in different cultures, and riddled with translation errors? Why would he rely on people to convey his message, when people are notoriously prone to getting things wrong, mental instabilities, and lying in order to obtain power and wealth? etc, etc?)

Not to mention, the expectation is entirely too high. I mean, in comparison to God, we would be like bacteria. Less than, actually. Do you expect a bacteria to comprehend and follow all of your desires? Do you even expect your dog to perfectly obey you? (And your dog has pretty concrete evidence of your existence!)

It also doesn't address the injustice of punishing innocent people for the crimes of others, and particularly children. Would you kill your dog's puppies because she stole food off the table? Is that fair?

And lastly, the free-will defense can only really reasonably be used to explain suffering caused by other people. It does not explain natural sources of suffering, such as natural disasters, disease, biological infirmity, etc.

There is nothing evil or bad about dying, or being killed. If such things are a part of God's will, they are anything but evil, for all that God does and wills to be done is good. There is nothing evil about feeling loss. There is nothing evil about loss. If it is God's will that one feels loss, or that there be loss, it is anything but evil.

 

[adi2d]

It is not the letter of the Word it is the Spirit who quickens

Are you even a chrisitian?

I was asking for clarification on your post

I believe that we are in the debate section. If you only want to talk with other Christians there are subforums for that here at RF

 

[s2a]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

"HE" is "evil" only if you believe that any "god" is subject to to equal moral standards as human beings.

The mythology of Christianity suggests that "God" retains some "secret" purpose that deifies all of human understanding...

...and for those living within' the realm of focused conspiracy theories, a perfectly plausible explanation.

BTW, you are not allowed to ask further questions, you devil worshiper you.

 

[Benoni]

I was asking for clarification on your post

I believe that we are in the debate section. If you only want to talk with other Christians there are subforums for that here at RF

Point being, if you are not a believer you never hear