Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[1robin]

I guess I need that decoder ring after all
Verses 13 and15 are addressing "they"
Verses 14 and 16 address "you". And they contradict each other

They is used to refer to other people and parts of the body in reference to the people that did understand. I do not see the contradiction.

They did not understand.
You did understand.
Your eyes and ears; they did perceive.

What contradiction do you refer to?

 

[1robin]

I simply ask that, if you're going to assert that your god is moral, that "he" actually does moral things and promotes moral things.

I of course believe he does. The point is that your moral criteria are not sufficient to judge what he does as moral or not. I am speaking theoretically not that you are so bad that you do not know what is good.


We have been through this. If God killed everyone on Earth how and by what criteria can you prove him wrong? God is wrathful against sin. At what level of sin is he justified to exhibit what level of wrath and how in the world do you know?

Since in this case we are dealing with about the most drastic level of sin possible on what basis would any retribution be unjustified?

 

[1robin]

Why does your god routinely have to kill large populations of people (or send others to do it) to teach us lessons? Surely there's a better way. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the highest conceivable example of love and self sacrifice translates into killing a whole bunch of people over and over.

Oh, and what price is he paying for any of it (as you indicate above)?

There is one a handful of cases where he is claimed to have done so. The flood and wars constitute virtually all of them. The nation with the greatest freedom also has the greatest incarceration rate. He must judge so many of us because so many of us merit it. We are talking about he Aztecs and you are making arbitrary complaints about ambiguous amounts and frequencies. How do you debate with "why do people suck". It is too ambiguous and arbitrary to discuss.

By what standard has God killed a bunch of us over and over. If you added up everyone he killed din the Bible it would not equal the last decades aids deaths in this country alone, the last decades abortions, the last years acts of violence. We deserve far far worse than we get. I said God has exhibited the greatest love AND he has exhibited sever retribution. How is one it's opposite? How is either unjustified?


In what way would any action against the Aztecs have been too severe if he actually had anything to do with it?

This was the most generalized argument I have ever seen. Why did not you just ask why is God so mean?

 

[1robin]

I don't believe Adam ever existed.

That has absolutely no relevance to what was claimed.

 

[1robin]

Ok. Its a secret. I don't even have a decoder ring

You should get one. It helps when you can see what was intended. That does not apply to "Drink more Ovaltine", but does to nature, morality, etc...

 

[adi2d]

You should get one. It helps when you can see what was intended. That does not apply to "Drink more Ovaltine", but does to nature, morality, etc...

I just watched that movie with my grandkids. Love that show

 

[Sha'irullah]

How can god be evil if it has no intent do even partake in morality? Wickedness and ethics are constructs WE created not god. The more you align morality to god the more you realize god is not moral. God is as moral as a hurricane and evil as an earthquake.

For some reason we do not call either of this two natural phenomena evil. They are just events with no moral qualities. God is no different and moral qualities cannot stick to something that is beyond or beneath moral understanding.

 

[Ingledsva]

I personally do not believe that there is anything that "is" evil. Evil is not something that truly exists. I understand the concept of evil, but I understand it not as something that exists, but as something that lacks something else that does truly exist, namely good. I liken evil to darkness, as many people do.

Darkness is not something that truly exists. It is merely a concept, a construct of the mind, a word we use to describe a situation wherein there is no light. Darkness is nothing more than the absence of something. It is the absence of light. If you take away light, what you have in it's place is nothing at all. What you have is no different than if you were to take away all matter. If you should take away all matter, what you have in it's place is nothing at all. What you are left with if you should take away all light is no different than what you are left with if you should take away all matter.

God is Good. All that is good is of God. This is my opinion. It's what I believe. If a mountainside should collapse on a village killing everyone in the village, nothing necessarily bad, or evil has happened. If it were God's will for a mountainside to collapse on a village killing everyone in the village, then it is not evil, or bad, but rather it is good. If it is of God, it is good. If it is not of God, it lacks good. We certainly call that bad, or evil, but as I said, it is not, for bad and evil do not exist, it is only a concept to describe situations that lack good. If what we do lacks the goodness of God, we most certainly can call ourselves evil, but that is only because we lack the goodness of God.

And you folks wonder why so many people are moving away from the religions of Abraham.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

I of course believe he does. The point is that your moral criteria are not sufficient to judge what he does as moral or not. I am speaking theoretically not that you are so bad that you do not know what is good.


We have been through this. If God killed everyone on Earth how and by what criteria can you prove him wrong? God is wrathful against sin. At what level of sin is he justified to exhibit what level of wrath and how in the world do you know?

Since in this case we are dealing with about the most drastic level of sin possible on what basis would any retribution be unjustified?

These are the cop-outs phrases of Abrahamic believers.


This is the EXACT SAME reasoning that allows Muslim Fundamentalists to bomb indiscriminately. Anyone that dies in the bombing does so at God's will, and therefore it is Just.


"Your God kills innocent babies."

"LA-LA-LA!" fingers in brain, "When my God kills innocent babies, it is absolutely righteous."

Now on the other hand, if other Gods kill babies - They are fragging evil!!!


To teach your God is a Just God, and love, etc, - and then preach any murder of innocent babies is OK because he is God, is as has been stated, PSYCHO!!!



*

 

[Thana]

These are the cop-outs phrases of Abrahamic believers.


This is the EXACT SAME reasoning that allows Muslim Fundamentalists to bomb indiscriminately. Anyone that dies in the bombing does so at God's will, and therefore it is Just.


"Your God kills innocent babies."

"LA-LA-LA!" fingers in brain, "When my God kills innocent babies, it is absolutely righteous."

Now on the other hand, if other Gods kill babies - They are fragging evil!!!


To teach your God is a Just God, and love, etc, - and then preach any murder of innocent babies is OK because he is God, is as has been stated, PSYCHO!!!



*

You know, I think it was family guy, or something similar that asked the question

"If you went back in time, And found baby Hitler, Would you kill him to save 6 million lives?"

It's an interesting question, because you know no matter what, This baby will grow up to kill millions of people. Me, personally, I wouldn't because I don't believe in ever killing anyone for any reason. However, I'm sure there are many people who would do so.

So then you must ask, God, Who can see the future, Allows killing of people you deem 'innocent' but how would you know? What if they were meant to do great evil?

Who are you to judge God, A perfect being with unlimited power?
You're just a fallible human, With sin in your heart like the rest of us.
Where do you get off saying what God should and should not do, When you yourself are capable of evil, Judging a God who is not.

You live off borrowed morals and ethics, Passed down and programmed into your brain by society.

So please, Tell me, Why do you think you're capable of saying what is right or wrong for God to do?

 

[Quagmire]

He was after Gold - not God.

There are little known, surviving Aztec records of Spanish atrocities, which were recorded by the monks, or translated later off of texts or stone. The Archbishop of Mexico had most of these gathered and burned to suppress the info. But some survived. Some of these are –

Fra.Bernardino de Sahugun the Codex Florentino, now in the Laurenzian Library in Florence, Italy.

Fray Toribio de Benavente, ( Motolinia,) a Franciscan monk, wrote Historia de los Indios de Nueva Espagna. Based on original descriptions of events.

Dr.Angel Maria Garibay K, translated a group of forty documents with original Aztec records, and published – The Broken Spears.

These and others describe in detail some of the atrocities the Spanish committed.

One of the better known people they tortured with fire, was a Leader of one of the great cities. I can’t remember his name, but they tortured him over a fire, trying to get information on more gold locations. Then they strangled him.

A few of the other atrocities -

Cortez demanded 2,000 Cholulans soldiers. The Aztec thought this was a peace sign and gave them to him, - instead he murdered all of them in the square.

He arrived in one city when hundreds of nobles were gathered for a religious event. He ordered them killed.

Cortez also massacred Spanish forces that were sent to reel him back in.

When he entered Tenochtitlan, he ordered total destruction, city block by city block.

When he didn’t have enough food, he had his soldiers kill the common folk so his native troops could cannibalize them.

They kept female slaves for rape use. These were branded on the face. Cortez himself had a harem of sex-slaves.

It seems – with impending death – and a twitchy conscience, - he left some money in his will for his more favored sex slaves, and their children by him.


It is speculated that Cortez killed more people in one year then the Aztec killed in 10 years. And of course the ultimate numbers of dead from Cortez, put the Aztec to shame.



*

Thank you for that. :yes:

Since there's no way to stop people from posting made-up "history" in here, it's always nice to see someone countering it with the facts.

 

[Sees]

You know, I think it was family guy, or something similar that asked the question

"If you went back in time, And found baby Hitler, Would you kill him to save 6 million lives?"

It's an interesting question, because you know no matter what, This baby will grow up to kill millions of people. Me, personally, I wouldn't because I don't believe in ever killing anyone for any reason. However, I'm sure there are many people who would do so.

That is interesting... Personally, after confirming identity, I wouldn't even bat an eyelash.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You know, I think it was family guy, or something similar that asked the question

"If you went back in time, And found baby Hitler, Would you kill him to save 6 million lives?"

It's an interesting question, because you know no matter what, This baby will grow up to kill millions of people. Me, personally, I wouldn't because I don't believe in ever killing anyone for any reason. However, I'm sure there are many people who would do so.

What if you had the power to go back and guide baby Hitler onto a different path without killing him?

So then you must ask, God, Who can see the future, Allows killing of people you deem 'innocent' but how would you know? What if they were meant to do great evil?

If someone was "meant to do great evil", who would have decided that this is what they were "meant" to do but God?

Who are you to judge God, A perfect being with unlimited power?
You're just a fallible human, With sin in your heart like the rest of us.
Where do you get off saying what God should and should not do, When you yourself are capable of evil, Judging a God who is not.

You live off borrowed morals and ethics, Passed down and programmed into your brain by society.

So please, Tell me, Why do you think you're capable of saying what is right or wrong for God to do?

I have enough power of reason to realize that, by definition, "a perfect being with unlimited power" wouldn't be constrained by the limitations that cause us to make imperfect compromises.

That's the difference between humanity and God: a human parent might choose to vaccinate their baby despite the pain it will cause because he has no way to get the good of the vaccine without the bad of the pain. If the parent had the option of a painless vaccine, he would have chosen it. He didn't because it was beyond his power.

But for God, nothing is beyond his power. No compromises are necessary. There's no such thing as an unfortunate side effect, because God has the power to avoid any side effect while still achieving his goal. Every action of an omnipotent God is necessarily deliberate and willful.

That's the difference. God wouldn't kill baby Hitler because God could stop the Holocaust without killing anyone. If he couldn't have done this, then God is something other than the "perfect being with unlimited power" you say he is.

 

[Thana]

What if you had the power to go back and guide baby Hitler onto a different path without killing him?

It was a hypothetical question that you avoided answering.

If someone was "meant to do great evil", who would have decided that this is what they were "meant" to do but God?

God gives us the ability to do whatever the hell we want.

I have enough power of reason to realize that, by definition, "a perfect being with unlimited power" wouldn't be constrained by the limitations that cause us to make imperfect compromises.

That's the difference between humanity and God: a human parent might choose to vaccinate their baby despite the pain it will cause because he has no way to get the good of the vaccine without the bad of the pain. If the parent had the option of a painless vaccine, he would have chosen it. He didn't because it was beyond his power.

But for God, nothing is beyond his power. No compromises are necessary. There's no such thing as an unfortunate side effect, because God has the power to avoid any side effect while still achieving his goal. Every action of an omnipotent God is necessarily deliberate and willful.

That's the difference. God wouldn't kill baby Hitler because God could stop the Holocaust without killing anyone. If he couldn't have done this, then God is something other than the "perfect being with unlimited power" you say he is.

Ah yes, God is a jerk argument and could save the world if He wanted to.

Yes, He could make everything hunky dory.
But He doesn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It was a hypothetical question that you avoided answering.

Yes, because it's irrelevant to the question of what God should do.

God gives us the ability to do whatever the hell we want.

... and gives us our wants as well, right?

Ah yes, God is a jerk argument and could save the world if He wanted to.

Yes, He could make everything hunky dory.
But He doesn't.

And that's evil, IMO.

Take this story: Police: 10 Witness Rape, Do Nothing - CBS News

If God really exists, he witnessed this and did nothing. Is he any less culpable than the human witnesses who also stood by and did nothing?

 

[Thana]

... and gives us our wants as well, right?

Nope. Wait, Where did you get that from?

And that's evil, IMO.

Take this story: Police: 10 Witness Rape, Do Nothing - CBS News

If God really exists, he witnessed this and did nothing. Is he any less culpable than the human witnesses who also stood by and did nothing?

God doesn't need me to defend Him,
But maybe if I say something halfway intelligent you might see Him in a better light.

What would you have God do? Strike them down?

Then what about free will?
If he made everything perfect, We'd have no choice but to obey and love Him.
We'd be nothing but pointless, mindless drones.

Then what about all the things that come from that rape?
What about all the possible outcomes?
You'd take away free will, then you'd take away the good things that can come of it?

How do you think good things come about?
I know this quote is cheesy, But I think it applies here.

'You have to endure the rain to see the rainbow'

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope. Wait, Where did you get that from?

Did you choose your wants? I didn't choose mine.

God doesn't need me to defend Him,
But maybe if I say something halfway intelligent you might see Him in a better light.

What would you have God do? Strike them down?

Then what about free will?

What's "free will"?

If he made everything perfect, We'd have no choice but to obey and love Him.
We'd be nothing but pointless, mindless drones.

Then what about all the things that come from that rape?
What about all the possible outcomes?
You'd take away free will, then you'd take away the good things that can come of it?

How do you think good things come about?
I know this quote is cheesy, But I think it applies here.

'You have to endure the rain to see the rainbow'

A "perfect being with unlimited power" can manage a rainbow without the rain.

 

[Thana]

Did you choose your wants? I didn't choose mine.

Simple Psychology would probably help you understand where our wants come from.

What's "free will"?

Free will, I like the simple definition of 'Voluntary'

A "perfect being with unlimited power" can manage a rainbow without the rain.

Yes, But He created a world where to get the rainbow we must endure the rain.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Simple Psychology would probably help you understand where our wants come from.

Just so you're aware of this. But if you used psychology in application of desires and psychological aspects of functionality it would only rule out the existence of the soul/spirit.

You can sort of dig yourself into a rut by "using psychology" as psychology is a methodology based upon naturalism in most cases and it can coincide with it's brother psychiatry to only provide the nonexistence of free will in the spiritual sense.

 

[Thana]

Just so you're aware of this. But if you used psychology in application of desires and psychological aspects of functionality it would only rule out the existence of the soul/spirit.

You can sort of dig yourself into a rut by "using psychology" as psychology is a methodology based upon naturalism in most cases and it can coincide with it's brother psychiatry to only provide the nonexistence of free will in the spiritual sense.

Not really.

I know a lot of 'hard core' Christians would agree with you,
But I don't.