Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Lady B]

I remember seeing that Chinese video where a child is hit by a car and then just lies there while drivers swerve around him without stopping and people walk by without giving him a second look. As I was watching, I thought to myself "how godly of all those people! How noble is it of them to not deprive that child of his free will! How majestic it is for them to allow *someone else* to step forward and help that dying child so that grace can enter *that* person's life!"

:sarcastic

seriously your using that horrid video depicting the absolute depravity of man against believers? You really think that has any religious meaning? I watched that video and cried, and then saw a video posted alongside it of a dog dragging another injured dog across a multi lane highway and out of harms way. I was thinking to myself why are we allowing dogs to shame us in acts of heroism? and where are the samaritans in this world? How are you attaching grace to the "someone else" person?

Sorry I have been taking a break to get my home back to normal after the Christmas celebrations. I know I have not responded to many posts, I will try to get on them as I can.

 

[Falvlun]

seriously your using that horrid video depicting the absolute depravity of man against believers? You really think that has any religious meaning? I watched that video and cried, and then saw a video posted alongside it of a dog dragging another injured dog across a multi lane highway and out of harms way. I was thinking to myself why are we allowing dogs to shame us in acts of heroism? and where are the samaritans in this world? How are you attaching grace to the "someone else" person?

Sorry I have been taking a break to get my home back to normal after the Christmas celebrations. I know I have not responded to many posts, I will try to get on them as I can.

The Penguin's example was a direct correlation of God's response to suffering, and how believers justify it.

 

[Lady B]

The Penguin's example was a direct correlation of God's response to suffering, and how believers justify it.

There is no justification to these depraved men who walked by and carried on in their errands while a child lay dying. I see the correlation he was making and If that is how he really Views God, It is no wonder He hates him.

 

[Falvlun]

There is no justification to these depraved men who walked by and carried on in their errands while a child lay dying. I see the correlation he was making and If that is how he really Views God, It is no wonder He hates him.

Did God help the child? If not, how is God any better than those depraved men who walked on by?

 

[idav]

There is no justification to these depraved men who walked by and carried on in their errands while a child lay dying. I see the correlation he was making and If that is how he really Views God, It is no wonder He hates him.

His mention of waiting for someone to rescue the child as if god needs the tragedy so that one of gods elect can show gods love and glory.

 

[Lady B]

Did God help the child? If not, how is God any better than those depraved men who walked on by?

So in order to believe in or respect a God you must see he intervenes in all situations and how he intervenes where suffering occurs? How do we know God wasn't there? How do we know he did not supernaturaly intervene and ease that childs pain and comfort him in his end? God has a special love for children as seen in scripture. I can't claim God did indeed comfort that child but you can't claim he did not either.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is no justification to these depraved men who walked by and carried on in their errands while a child lay dying. I see the correlation he was making and If that is how he really Views God, It is no wonder He hates him.

I don't "hate" God any more than I hate Darth Vader, but I do realize that one implication of an all-powerful, all-seeing God is that every time a person suffers or dies without being helped by anyone, that God would be one of the ones that stood by and did nothing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So in order to believe in or respect a God you must see he intervenes in all situations and how he intervenes where suffering occurs?

If I saw a child dying of his injuries in the middle of the street, I would pull him out of traffic, call 911, and administer first aid. A God who is at least as good and as capable as me would help him at least that much.

How do we know God wasn't there? How do we know he did not supernaturaly intervene and ease that childs pain and comfort him in his end?

How do you know that the people who walked by the child didn't whisper soothing words to calm him as they were passing? Seems about as relevant.

God has a special love for children as seen in scripture. I can't claim God did indeed comfort that child but you can't claim he did not either.

If God's love means being left for dead in the street, then I'm happy not to be the recipient of God's "special love for children".

 

[Lady B]

I don't "hate" God any more than I hate Darth Vader, but I do realize that one implication of an all-powerful, all-seeing God is that every time a person suffers or dies without being helped by anyone, that God would be one of the ones that stood by and did nothing.

As you like..But I see ugliness in men, I do not see Ugliness or evil On God's behalf. I see this lack of sympathy for a hurt and suffering child as a result of a culture who puts so little value on children.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As you like..But I see ugliness in men, I do not see Ugliness or evil On God's behalf.

Why not? To me, it seems pretty straightforward:

- God only does what he considers good.
- God left that child dying in the street.
- Therefore, God considered it good to leave that child dying in the street.

There are only two logically consistent ways to deal with this:

- conclude that leaving the child dying in the street was actually a good thing.
- conclude that God isn't actually good. Or not entirely good, anyhow.

You make the first option unavailable when you condemn those bystanders for leaving the child in the street.

I see this lack of sympathy for a hurt and suffering child as a result of a culture who puts so little value on children.

That may be. I could see it that way... though I don't have to wrestle with the problem that God did no more for that child than the bystanders did. If God not helping implies that not helping is good, then those people did nothing wrong.

 

[arthra]

We don't always know how it is infants die... Sometimes in the case of "crib death" it occurs. I knew a family who lost an infant child and they were told by their church it was because they sinned.. but to me this just added to the suffering of the family.

We don't know the future either or what potential tomorrow will bring until we live through it.

Abdul-Baha offered this comfort:

Be not grieved at the death of that infant child, for it is placed in trust for thee before thy Lord in His great Kingdom.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 194

We do know that life is precious and to be valued...not to be just thrown away or trampled on.

 

[Falvlun]

So in order to believe in or respect a God you must see he intervenes in all situations and how he intervenes where suffering occurs? How do we know God wasn't there? How do we know he did not supernaturaly intervene and ease that childs pain and comfort him in his end? God has a special love for children as seen in scripture. I can't claim God did indeed comfort that child but you can't claim he did not either.

Do I know in that specific case? No. But I do know that children feel pain, hunger, and suffering. I have seen their tears, heard their cries, I've seen them with cancer, I see those commercials about starving children, and have felt pain myself as a child as well. So I do know for a fact that God does not sooth the suffering of every child with some almighty morphine.

 

[McBell]

As you like..But I see ugliness in men, I do not see Ugliness or evil On God's behalf. I see this lack of sympathy for a hurt and suffering child as a result of a culture who puts so little value on children.

As led by Gods example of not helping the child, right?

 

[averageJOE]

So in order to believe in or respect a God you must see he intervenes in all situations and how he intervenes where suffering occurs? How do we know God wasn't there? How do we know he did not supernaturaly intervene and ease that childs pain and comfort him in his end? God has a special love for children as seen in scripture. I can't claim God did indeed comfort that child but you can't claim he did not either.

But according to you God allowed/pre-ordained that child to be hit and lay there while everyone walked by...

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

...

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Which leaves these logical conlusions to be made...

Why not? To me, it seems pretty straightforward:

- God only does what he considers good.
- God left that child dying in the street.
- Therefore, God considered it good to leave that child dying in the street.

There are only two logically consistent ways to deal with this:

- conclude that leaving the child dying in the street was actually a good thing.
- conclude that God isn't actually good. Or not entirely good, anyhow.

 

[Lady B]

I've been slow in getting back to you, but others have perceived the same contradictions that I have. You seem to be going through some rather agile mental gymnastics to keep yourself from acknowledging them. That is, you don't claim to know the mind of God directly, but you claim to know that the Bible reveals it to you. So you can speak with confidence about what is in God's mind by relying on the Bible as the source of your knowledge. Somehow, you think it not as presumptuous to claim that the Bible is an accurate reflection of what is in God's mind, despite your complete lack of any support for that claim. You do not speculate what the Bible says, but you do speculate that it is God's revealed word as you interpret the Bible.


Right here I think is where you attempt to have it both ways--declaring that you do not presume to know what is in God's mind, yet you do presume gratuitously that the Bible reveals it. Hence, you can go ahead and express what is in God's mind on the basis of your interpretation of the Bible.


I wouldn't know about that, but I do know that the majority of religious people in the world disagree with your judgment that the Christian Bible is the revealed word of God. Others have pointed this out to you, and I have not seen you attempt to refute it. I and others have asked how you could reject other religious scripture over that which you've chosen to take as 'evidence' of God's intentions. I have yet to see you to try to answer that question. What sets your judgment above that of a Hindu's, a Muslim's, a Buddhist's, or an atheist's?

You have a right to argue from your own standpoint. You have people addressing it in this thread. This is not about whether I reject your beliefs, but I certainly have a right to ask what sets your judgment about the significance of the Bible over mine or anyone else's, don't I? Most of us have not been questioning your faith in God, but your faith in the Bible, which was compiled, edited, and recorded by men. On what basis do you accept it as anything but what some very ordinary human beings claimed?

Again I know my God from his revealed word ,of which I believe is indeed his Word to men."Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God" How do I have faith the Bible is indeed from God? Well That is actually unanswerable beyond circular reasoning.God uses his word to bring Us to him, He Gives us the ability to be sure It is his word and it is his word that Saves us. It is definitely an Act of God, supernatural and unexplained. how I know without a doubt the Bible written over 1800 years inspired by God yet written by men is truly God's words revealed in order that they can come to the knowledge of Christ and be saved, comes from Faith and Faith alone.

About other scriptures in other religions, why mine and not theirs? Well again that is originally a Gift of Faith from God and from that faith I have studied some other scriptures and seen only contradictions to what the Bible says and I can know it is not the same God of my scriptures.But really my beginning is all Faith given by God and not my own understanding.God gave me a desire to seek him and study his word, by this I am grounded in it and cannot be moved. The questions and doubts you as an unbeliever have may never be answered to your liking. But my faith sustains me through the defeat of those same unanswerables.

Is it arrogant to perceive I have the truth and other religions do not? Yes perhaps in an unbelievers mind, but should I downplay the truth I have so I don't offend? I think not, for If you are sure the road your fellow men are traveling on has no destination but hell, we should indeed be there to stop the traffic and turn them around, some will not turn around, they just wont, their hearts are hardened, None has foreknowledge of who will turn and who will not.But there are many who will.

You may see predestination as predestined failure,I do not. I see it as a prevalent doctrine in Scripture, I see the 5 points in all scripture, old test. And new. I am not sure why other believers even differ, But Calvanism is not a new trend, It is the beginning beliefs dating back to the 5th century and has been defended throughout history in the church. Most Christians believe in monergism and theocentricism though they don't know they do. Most believers believe faith comes from God and not the autonomous free will of man. Most believe the scriptures that no man will choose God, that the will of men is an enemy of God and that God must intercede or none will come to him. Yet there are some who believe in synergism, that God's will can only be accomplished with participation of mans will to choose him. They use John 3:16 ,but this verse cannot be separated, the first part, God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Cannot stand alone without the second part. That whosoever believeth in him shall have eternal life. So If God gave his son for all, why do some men not get saved? Why would God add any stipulations such as ' them that believe?' If Christ's sacrifice was to save all and none will see hell, It is kind of a failure right? If Christ died so that some could be saved, still seems like an iffy prospect, But if Christ died so those he came to save were indeed saved, sucessss!


I know this post is too long, I would like to continue on if you will allow, because These things were brought up, I would also like to give scripture, even realizing it will mean nothing to the unbeliever, but to those who are truly curious how predestination is a real doctrine in the Bible, I should give support even If it only for my beliefs, my religion,my God.

At any rate if you are tired of hearing my side, I will concede...

 

[McBell]

As you like..But I see ugliness in men, I do not see Ugliness or evil On God's behalf. I see this lack of sympathy for a hurt and suffering child as a result of a culture who puts so little value on children.

How is it the "ugliness of men" when god pre-ordains the child to get hurt and pre-ordains the peope to ignore the child?

Once again you seem to be all upset and bent out of shape over something that God has pre-ordained.
Shouldn't you be upset with the ordainer and not the robots doing what is ordained.

 

[Lady B]

How is it the "ugliness of men" when god pre-ordains the child to get hurt and pre-ordains the peope to ignore the child?

Once again you seem to be all upset and bent out of shape over something that God has pre-ordained.
Shouldn't you be upset with the ordainer and not the robots doing what is ordained.

I have never said that God is in any way responsible for the sin of man and the effects that sin has on men to ignore a suffering child. By preordained, God chose the time that child would die and used the sin in men for eventual good in that we can be sure that child is with God now, and no longer suffering. I am sure there is a chain of events unfolding from this tragedy that are ordained by God. Perhaps God has used this tragedy at the hands of evil to wake us, many have been touched by this video and I can see God must have his hand in this touching.For me it is like God is saying "hey wake up people, look how man has become so hard of heart, dead by sin,that he can walk past a dying baby and go about his day untouched. Of course It is presumptuous of me to say what God made good from this tragic event. But I can trust he indeed knows more then us.

 

[Lady B]

It sounds like it's all part of God's plan to let them die by accidents, murder, disease etc. But is he evil? If you think that's not evil than what is it? If my cat catches and eats a mouse, if that evil? If I squish a mosquito is that evil? If the mosquito bites me and I get malaria and die was the mosquito evil?

I don't know if any Christian cares about any thing else dying but humans because we supposedly have an immortal soul and they don't. They return to dust. It seems that the rest of creation doesn't matter that much. They seem to be acting more on natural laws like "survival of the fittest" or the survival of the luckiest. They eat, kill, live and die and make more babies.They don't need some "divine" plan, but humans are different?

Was Genghis Khan or Alexander evil when they conquered and killed tons of people? Was the guy who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima evil? Was Joshua evil when he destroyed Jericho? All of them probably killed children. Did your God pardoned some of the children--the kids of non-Christians? If he does, that's not fair to the other kids that were too old to make the cutoff. If he doesn't, then he created all those souls of all those children, plus all the aborted kids only to send them to the Christian hell?
Naturally, no believer could ever say that their God is evil, but didn't he say, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 KJV. So, if we take the Bible literally, then I guess he created evil, no doubt, for a good reason. Like to get us to believe on him. Gee, I wonder why so many are questioning and asking, "What is going on in the mind of the Christian God? Who can know it?"
Hey, but one thing Lady B, just in case you're the one that is right and by chance I'm one of the elect, God bless you and guide you as you try and "rightly divide" his word of truth.

The Bible says God is not the author of evil, that none can accuse him, therefore I must be sure though He is not the author, He will use it for good. Thank you for the blessing and I sincerely wish you are God's chosen and that all here opposing and or questioning are as well of the elect of God.

 

[McBell]

I have never said that God is in any way responsible for the sin of man and the effects that sin has on men to ignore a suffering child. By preordained, God chose the time that child would die and used the sin in men for eventual good in that we can be sure that child is with God now, and no longer suffering. I am sure there is a chain of events unfolding from this tragedy that are ordained by God. Perhaps God has used this tragedy at the hands of evil to wake us, many have been touched by this video and I can see God must have his hand in this touching.For me it is like God is saying "hey wake up people, look how man has become so hard of heart, dead by sin,that he can walk past a dying baby and go about his day untouched. Of course It is presumptuous of me to say what God made good from this tragic event. But I can trust he indeed knows more then us.

What a horrible picture you paint of your god.
And the worst part is that you cannot see it.

 

[Lady B]

I truly don't think you understand what we are getting at here, so this will likely will be my last attempt.

Do you not see how the statement in purple is contradicted by the statement in green? You claim in one breath that no one, no even you, can know what the mind of God is or what his intent is, and then turn around and tell us what God's intent is. The contradiction is clear as day.

Either no one, not even you, can tell us what the mind of God is, or you know the mind of God via the Bible. You cannot have both.

I do see what you and others are saying, But in response I am only claiming what I believe God has revealed in his word. I personally never claimed to know the mind of God by any means of my own. Yes I presume to know some things by presuming the Bible is His words and what he has revealed in them and by them alone do I support my presumptions. I get you don't believe the Bible is God's word. I am not debating that at all.