Conståntine
Member
The word "supposed", mind you, is indicative of uncertainty (no different from hypothetical in this case), which brings me to the sensibility of blaming a hypothetical deity for manmade ills.
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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?
- Thread starter Lady B
- Start date
The word "supposed", mind you, is indicative of uncertainty (no different from hypothetical in this case), which brings me to the sensibility of blaming a hypothetical deity for manmade ills.
Conståntine;3193733 said:
The existence of a deity has been taken as a given for this discussion. If we didn't do that, then the discussion would have been very short:
"Why does my God allow children to die?"
"If God doesn't exist, he'll allow anything."
Conståntine;3193733 said:
Well, that is the thing. The conception of God of mainstream Abrahamic Faiths is that much self-contradictory.
It is the one conception of God that may actually be proven false, mainly because it relies on the existence of imperfections in existence being at one time logically God's choice and also, for some rather vague reason, "manmade".
It simply doesn't make sense.
Conståntine
Member
Apparently it hasn't been taken as a given by everyone, if you care to take a gander at LuisDantas' reply above.
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I see.
Oh, I take it as a given. And I promptly see the contradictions resulting. I don't have to actually believe in it at any point.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Yes, and it can also be that a supreme omniscient entity doesn't exist......the uncertainty being by design......if He exists.
Lady B
noob
Now who is presuming to know God's plans?According to the tulip idea god would need the suffering of the damned in order for the elect to show the glory of god. In other words, god doesn't need to help as he already knows that 99% of the humans won't do anything until that rare 1% can come along and help a suffering human that God would have already known and chosen. Its a very rough theology to think a school shooting is necessary on order for gods miracle of a few heroes and saved souls come out of the woodwork.
Lady B
noob
Thank you Penguin for finally allowing what I have been trying to say....
Logical consequences of an omnimax god.
Lady B
noob
Of course the elect sin and we are part of the sin problem in this earth. Having Faith does deter some sinful actions by the Spirit of God working in us, however all sin and fight sin, no one is exempt from this. A person may go the majority of life being an enemy to God and one day he is converted, he is still responsable for the contribution of sin he had on the world in his disobedience to God prior to conversion.
Makes god responsible for the things people do since what the chosen do would be part of gods plan. An example is Jacob and Esau when both were predestined and Esau was damned from the womb yet anything Jacob did wouldn't take away the chosen status. God planned it just that way so how is that fair fro the people already damned from birth?
God either plans it and is responsible or we have the ability to do other than what god wills which would be problematic for god choosing who lives and dies.
Conståntine
Member
If God does not exist, then who or what would be the cause(s) of all social ills?
Conståntine
Member
Then the question follows - If God (omniscient and omnipotent) were to be determined as having existed from the beginning of time till the present, then would the responsibility of the aforementioned social ills be imputed to him? And if so, why?
Depends.Conståntine;3194355 said:
Did this God create us and our environment like this? Then yes, some of the responsibility is God's.
Did God preordain certain events to happen? Then yes, those events are entirely God's responsibility.
Though, primarily the argument is a moral one. It is not necessarily just about whether God is responsible, but whether an omnipotent/omniscient God is moral for allowing such things to happen when he could stop them from happening.
In addition, if the omniscient and omnipotent God is also characterized as omnibenevolent, a pretty severe contradiction occurs. Such a being would be bound to act in ways that only result in good, and would also have the power and knowledge to do that. Since we see a whole lot of evil going on, it follows that such a God cannot exist: either it is not omnipotent, or omniscient, or omnibenevolent.
Conståntine
Member
Okay.
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And what is your verdict, and if applicable, how have you arrived at it pray tell, if any?
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That may be, assuming a rather universal understanding of what constitutes good and evil, of which the God in question would also acknowledge.
Lady B
noob
Yes Jacob and Esau are support for predestination and God's choosing whom he loves and who he hates. It is just that simple really. I don't have a problem with a creator deciding what to do whith his created, I don't feel entitled to God's grace just because I was created. We all seem to have this idea of being owed something, God owes us heaven, But really If we examine our hearts and the hardness therein, and learn more of this God and his Holiness, we could see that indeed we deserve Hell and only by unmerited Grace will we escape it.That is my belief, though I do ponder on these things, I remain unmoved by them, That is also God given faith and not of my own understanding. I do not need all that God Holds back in giving us,to trust him. He has said he gives us what we can bare and I agree. what if he told us our time to die? I think most could not handle that. Let us imagine for a moment If God told us when Christ will return exactly,That would change alot in my life to my shame, but would you as an unbeliever change anything about your life? let's say it is written Christ will return in 2014. would that mean anything to you? A little off topic but Just some questions I have been thinking in, I am curious to hear your minds ....
Conståntine
Member
I can see where you are coming from, and I can tell you that your conclusion is not correct.
pre·des·tine [pri-des-tin]
verb (used with object), pre·des·tined, pre·des·tin·ing.
to destine in advance; foreordain; predetermine: He seemed predestined for the ministry.
des·tine [des-tin]
verb (used with object), des·tined, des·tin·ing.
1.
to set apart for a particular use, purpose, etc.; design; intend.
2.
to appoint or ordain beforehand, as by divine decree; foreordain; predetermine.
Jacob was predestined to be the progenitor of the seed of promise. Esau was not. Neither were millions upon millions of other people who lived throughout history. That does not infer that the other losing contestants were damned, in the sense of being condemned to hell, from the womb. Whether or not he was chosen to be the progenitor of the Jewish people is also irrelevant. God choses and has chosen many people from before they were born to be this, that, or the other in life. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people in question will serve God wholeheartedly in the end and end up in heaven.
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Can you show me who has been damned from birth according to the bible?
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We do have the ability to choose to do and not do what God wills. What makes you think that God would be bothered by this?
I think it could very well be as simple as that, and I agree with you, such an omnipotent being does not necessarily owe us anything.
However, if you want to call such a Being "good", "omnibenevolent", "moral", etc, that is when you run into problems. Those words come with the expectation of fairness, justness, kindness, patience, forebearence, and self-control. Having the right to do anything you want does not mean that everything you then do is good. We have the right to freedom of speech, but calling people names is still not very nice.