Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Awoon]

Whether there be a God or Gods or not, the world is what those living in it make to be. The bible God rested. The Universe is active.

 

[Lady B]

I think it could very well be as simple as that, and I agree with you, such an omnipotent being does not necessarily owe us anything.

However, if you want to call such a Being "good", "omnibenevolent", "moral", etc, that is when you run into problems. Those words come with the expectation of fairness, justness, kindness, patience, forebearence, and self-control. Having the right to do anything you want does not mean that everything you then do is good. We have the right to freedom of speech, but calling people names is still not very nice.

But in saying that God is not fair, Is essentially saying you deserve something right? maybe this is the real problem It comes down to entitlement and failure to see ones own depravity and his emnity with God, or a possible God.You think?

 

[Lady B]

Falvlun, could you possibly take a moment and help me with a tech. problem, I posted it in feedback but I am not sure if that is correct.....

 

[Koldo]

But in saying that God is not fair, Is essentially saying you deserve something right?

No. It is not because we deserve anything that (omnibenevolent) God has to treat us fairly. It is because of his character.

 

[Falvlun]

And what is your verdict, and if applicable, how have you arrived at it pray tell, if any?

Based upon what I see about the world around me, I do not believe that the sort of God described by the Bible is completely moral. Some of his actions are, and some aren't.

Surely, an omnipotent/omniscient Being would have the knowledge and capability to create a world in which innocent people suffer less.

And as for some of Lady B's beliefs about predestination and such, the whole thing strikes me as downright evil to punish someone for something they had no control over.

That may be, assuming a rather universal understanding of what constitutes good and evil, of which the God in question would also acknowledge.

I agree that there would have to be a general consensus among the people utilizing the words "moral" or "good". I think humans do have such a general sense; specifics, of course, are variable. However, I do not think that God would have to ascribe to such.

Our words have meaning because we have decided what they will mean. Is it possible that God's definition of "good" is different than our own? Yes. But if it is different than our own, then that means it is some other word. It is not "good", as we understand "good" to mean.

Thus, it would be meaningless, misleading, and potentially dishonest, to label such a Being as "omnibenevolent" when the sense of the word "good" you are using is not the sense in which it is typically used.

 

[Falvlun]

But in saying that God is not fair, Is essentially saying you deserve something right? maybe this is the real problem It comes down to entitlement and failure to see ones own depravity and his emnity with God, or a possible God.You think?

Do you deserve a fair judge if you are accused of a crime? Are you entitled to a fair trial?

Even murderers have the right to expect a fair judge and trial. To give them anything less is immoral.

 

[Lady B]

Do you deserve a fair judge if you are accused of a crime? Are you entitled to a fair trial?

Even murderers have the right to expect a fair judge and trial. To give them anything less is immoral.

I agree, and this is why I am so comfortable with God's justice, more then man's. Let's not go into punishment here but lets look at crime. Many of the posters here, not necessarily you, seem to have this idea they are innocent that They are good and don't deserve punishment. Some have degrees in good,bad and punishments. These are secular reasoning's and nothing to do with God's laws and commandments. So let me ask you, If My God is real and the Bible is real, based on scripture do you deserve reward or punishment?

And as a sidenote, I believe scripture tells us we will have a fair trial, we will stand before him and speak. The reaon I know this is from Christ's words " many will stand before him and say Lord Lord have I not done works and prohesied in your name?" And Of course we Know his response and fear it, " depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thank you Penguin for finally allowing what I have been trying to say....

If I just said what you've been trying to say, then I think the odds are pretty good that either you misinterpreted me or I didn't express myself well.

My point was that it's very easy to reconcile the state of the world with the non-existence of God. It resolves the entire problem of evil.

It's only if you're proposing that God exists and is good that the problem of evil is even a problem at all.

Yes Jacob and Esau are support for predestination and God's choosing whom he loves and who he hates. It is just that simple really. I don't have a problem with a creator deciding what to do whith his created, I don't feel entitled to God's grace just because I was created.

This suggests to me that you disagree with the idea that humans have inherent worth. Is that a fair statement?

If it is, why should you get upset at murder? Is it just that murderers are being disobedient to God that bothers you?

We all seem to have this idea of being owed something, God owes us heaven, But really If we examine our hearts and the hardness therein, and learn more of this God and his Holiness, we could see that indeed we deserve Hell and only by unmerited Grace will we escape it.

What could a limited human being ever do in a finite life to deserve eternal torment?

That is my belief, though I do ponder on these things, I remain unmoved by them, That is also God given faith and not of my own understanding. I do not need all that God Holds back in giving us,to trust him. He has said he gives us what we can bare and I agree. what if he told us our time to die? I think most could not handle that. Let us imagine for a moment If God told us when Christ will return exactly,That would change alot in my life to my shame, but would you as an unbeliever change anything about your life? let's say it is written Christ will return in 2014. would that mean anything to you? A little off topic but Just some questions I have been thinking in, I am curious to hear your minds ....

My first thought is that if it was written that Christ will return in 2014, this would contradict the passages in the Gospels where he says that he will return within the lifetime of the people he was preaching to.

My second thought is that the mere fact that "it is written" wouldn't change anything. There are lots of things that I find unbelievable that are written. The mere fact that someone proclaimed it doesn't mean that it's something that I should put any weight in at all. I would need a lot more than some sort of scripture to believe that the Second Coming was going to happen.

Beyond that, if I really could be sure that Christ would return in 2014, I'm not sure what I would think. IMO, the idea of the Second Coming is so problematic and illogical that I probably wouldn't be able to make sense of it. You might as well tell me that a magic elephant was coming to paint the world with peanut butter. I just wouldn't know what to do with that information.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree, and this is why I am so comfortable with God's justice, more then man's. Let's not go into punishment here but lets look at crime. Many of the posters here, not necessarily you, seem to have this idea they are innocent that They are good and don't deserve punishment. Some have degrees in good,bad and punishments. These are secular reasoning's and nothing to do with God's laws and commandments. So let me ask you, If My God is real and the Bible is real, based on scripture do you deserve reward or punishment?

Based on scripture, our feelings about what we do or don't deserve are irrelevant. Might makes right and since God is mightiest of all, what he says goes. God can do what he pleases, and we're out of line if we question it because we're just puny humans. That's basically the message of Job.

And as a sidenote, I believe scripture tells us we will have a fair trial, we will stand before him and speak. The reaon I know this is from Christ's words " many will stand before him and say Lord Lord have I not done works and prohesied in your name?" And Of course we Know his response and fear it, " depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you".

I don't fear that. I don't do anything in the name of Christ.

I'm curious, though: exactly where in scripture do you think it says that this trial will be fair?

 

[Lady B]

If I just said what you've been trying to say, then I think the odds are pretty good that either you misinterpreted me or I didn't express myself well.

My point was that it's very easy to reconcile the state of the world with the non-existence of God. It resolves the entire problem of evil.

It's only if you're proposing that God exists and is good that the problem of evil is even a problem at all.


This suggests to me that you disagree with the idea that humans have inherent worth. Is that a fair statement?

If it is, why should you get upset at murder? Is it just that murderers are being disobedient to God that bothers you?


What could a limited human being ever do in a finite life to deserve eternal torment?


My first thought is that if it was written that Christ will return in 2014, this would contradict the passages in the Gospels where he says that he will return within the lifetime of the people he was preaching to.

My second thought is that the mere fact that "it is written" wouldn't change anything. There are lots of things that I find unbelievable that are written. The mere fact that someone proclaimed it doesn't mean that it's something that I should put any weight in at all. I would need a lot more than some sort of scripture to believe that the Second Coming was going to happen.

Beyond that, if I really could be sure that Christ would return in 2014, I'm not sure what I would think. IMO, the idea of the Second Coming is so problematic and illogical that I probably wouldn't be able to make sense of it. You might as well tell me that a magic elephant was coming to paint the world with peanut butter. I just wouldn't know what to do with that information.

Yes I gathered as much, some things you and I cannot contemplate together, and you can't even imagine really. It is ok and a fair response.Of course If it is written 2014 would also be a contradiction that no man will know the time. I was just throwing out an if scenario....

 

[Lady B]

Based on scripture, our feelings about what we do or don't deserve are irrelevant. Might makes right and since God is mightiest of all, what he says goes. God can do what he pleases, and we're out of line if we question it because we're just puny humans. That's basically the message of Job.



I don't fear that. I don't do anything in the name of Christ.

I'm curious, though: exactly where in scripture do you think it says that this trial will be fair?

I am not implying it will be fair as in the ways of the world fair, I mean some people even Christians teach that we will have no voice at all, God will judge us and that is it. But I see Christ saying we will attempt to defend ourselves, even futile as it will be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not implying it will be fair as in the ways of the world fair,

Oh... so it's "fair" in the same sense that killing kids is "good" when God does it?

I mean some people even Christians teach that we will have no voice at all, God will judge us and that is it. But I see Christ saying we will attempt to defend ourselves, even futile as it will be.

A distinction without difference, IMO. Do you think that a futile show-trial is better than no trial at all?

 

[McBell]

I am not implying it will be fair as in the ways of the world fair, I mean some people even Christians teach that we will have no voice at all, God will judge us and that is it. But I see Christ saying we will attempt to defend ourselves, even futile as it will be.

Interestingly enough I remember from scripture that each person will be judged according to their own standards.

 

[McBell]

Oh... so it's "fair" in the same sense that killing kids is "good" when God does it?

I never did understand why some people say something and when asked about it say that what they said is not what they meant.

It is much likened to the bait and switch...

 

[Lady B]

Oh... so it's "fair" in the same sense that killing kids is "good" when God does it?

Again, God did not kill those children and he is not responsable for the sin of murder.
A distinction without difference, IMO. Do you think that a futile show-trial is better than no trial at all?

Again, God did not kill those children and he is not responsible for the sin of murder. Men are totally responsible, whether the children were pre-ordained to die or not.

I am not sure how the Judgement will be exactly, I can say I havn't really studied revelations to any debate worthy extent. Perhaps that will be my next endeavor...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, God did not kill those children and he is not responsible for the sin of murder. Men are totally responsible, whether the children were pre-ordained to die or not.

And again, this makes no sense. You're going against any reasonable meaning of "responsible". If a child's death is preordained by God, then this means that God decided that the child should die. Do you agree that we're responsible for the consequences of our decisions?

 

[McBell]

And again, this makes no sense. You're going against any reasonable meaning of "responsible". If a child's death is preordained by God, then this means that God decided that the child should die. Do you agree that we're responsible for the consequences of our decisions?

God seems to be given some sort of free pass.
A cosmic "get out of jail free" card, so to speak

I mean really, you take the most evil heinous thing a person can do and if God does it, it is not evil or heinous but is instead good.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree, and this is why I am so comfortable with God's justice, more then man's. Let's not go into punishment here but lets look at crime. Many of the posters here, not necessarily you, seem to have this idea they are innocent that They are good and don't deserve punishment. Some have degrees in good,bad and punishments. These are secular reasoning's and nothing to do with God's laws and commandments. So let me ask you, If My God is real and the Bible is real, based on scripture do you deserve reward or punishment?

And as a sidenote, I believe scripture tells us we will have a fair trial, we will stand before him and speak. The reaon I know this is from Christ's words " many will stand before him and say Lord Lord have I not done works and prohesied in your name?" And Of course we Know his response and fear it, " depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you".

So you are in essence asking us to take as a given that we are evil and deserve to be punished just like that? With no actual facts or logic to support such an assertion?

 

[LuisDantas]

God seems to be given some sort of free pass.
A cosmic "get out of jail free" card, so to speak

I mean really, you take the most evil heinous thing a person can do and if God does it, it is not evil or heinous but is instead good.

Yes, it sure seems that way at times. It is insane.

 

[Copernicus]

God seems to be given some sort of free pass.
A cosmic "get out of jail free" card, so to speak

I mean really, you take the most evil heinous thing a person can do and if God does it, it is not evil or heinous but is instead good.

You can prove anything from contradictory premises. If God defines what is good, then one cannot claim that God himself is either 'good' or 'bad'. From God's perspective, the meaning of the terms becomes whatever he wants them to mean--essentially meaningless. Nevertheless, people of faith seem seldom troubled enough by the linguistic sleight of hand to pause in their continual claims that God is 'good' (Alahu akbar!). If I believed that the consequence of not shouting such praises would result in my eternal torture, then I wouldn't care much about the logic or its lack either.

One of my major criticisms of the religious doctrine of 'objective morality' is that it effectively undermines our instinctive humanistic morality. What defines 'good behavior' is however one believes God defines it, and that can be much at odds with what we would usually consider morally justifiable behavior. Religious authorities can use this kind of reasoning to manipulate the behavior of those who accept their authority. In the end, 'objective morality' becomes completely arbitrary. It is what lets some religious fanatics justify unspeakable atrocities--even those whose commission consumes their own lives.