Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Lady B]

What a horrible picture you paint of your god.
And the worst part is that you cannot see it.

I disagree I attribute any horrid thing to my God. I attribute horrid things to men and sin and the slavery to sin.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree I attribute any horrid thing to my God. I attribute horrid things to men and sin and the slavery to sin.

Do you disagree with the idea that God watched what unfolded at Sandy Hook (and that street in China, and every other tragedy that's ever happend) and did nothing?

 

[Koldo]

I disagree I attribute any horrid thing to my God. I attribute horrid things to men and sin and the slavery to sin.

How would you feel if a human being passed down a message ( which can be anything that you consider to be important )to others at the expense of the life and suffering of a child?

 

[Lady B]

Do you disagree with the idea that God watched what unfolded at Sandy Hook (and that street in China, and every other tragedy that's ever happend) and did nothing?

Yes I disagree he did nothing. Or felt nothing. I cannot tell you where he was or what he did, But I can be sure God does not stand idle and his hand does intervene at his choosing.Perhaps this is a supernatural faith that even I can't truly understand and unbelievers can't understand how I can have peace with this God who seemingly allows sin to rein and good to die.

But what I really find hard to believe is no God, No higher being at all, no designer, all things come by chance with no purpose and no destination. Can I ask you how you explain these tragic events with the school shootings and the abandoned suffering child from China? Do these events have any meaning to you at all? Who do you blame or hold accountable for the actions of men? Do you see hope that man can redeem himself from this depraved state? Or is he even depraved? You have heard my views, I would really like to find out what if any comfort you have in seeing this chaos all around us.

 

[Falvlun]

But what I really find hard to believe is no God, No higher being at all, no designer, all things come by chance with no purpose and no destination.

We each create our own purpose and destination. I mean, if it does turn out that God doesn't exist, then that means that you created a sense of purpose out of your life anyway, doesn't it?

Can I ask you how you explain these tragic events with the school shootings and the abandoned suffering child from China? Do these events have any meaning to you at all?

I think they are horribly tragic events. My heart goes out to those children, and their families. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. My desire is to work to prevent such atrocities from occurring again, to better myself, my fellow people, and the world I live in.

Who do you blame or hold accountable for the actions of men?

I hold the person accountable for his or her actions, as well as the environment in which that person was raised in. I believe that our nature predisposes us to certain actions, that our nuture predisposes us to other actions, but that we also have a mind and freewill in which to choose otherwise (though it may not always be easy).

Do you see hope that man can redeem himself from this depraved state? Or is he even depraved?

I don't see why we would be unable to better ourselves and our environment. I mean, you can train a child to not lie or steal. Is that not redeeming that child from that vice? You can work to prevent poverty, which would prevent the need to steal. Is that not redeeming some people from circumstances which could induce them to do bad things?

I don't think people are inherently good or bad. But we do have the ability to reason, adapt, experiment, help, and perfect various aspects of ourselves and our world. That is an inspiring goal and a worthy purpose, imo.

 

[Lady B]

We each create our own purpose and destination. I mean, if it does turn out that God doesn't exist, then that means that you created a sense of purpose out of your life anyway, doesn't it?


I think they are horribly tragic events. My heart goes out to those children, and their families. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. My desire is to work to prevent such atrocities from occurring again, to better myself, my fellow people, and the world I live in.


I hold the person accountable for his or her actions, as well as the environment in which that person was raised in. I believe that our nature predisposes us to certain actions, that our nuture predisposes us to other actions, but that we also have a mind and freewill in which to choose otherwise (though it may not always be easy).


I don't see why we would be unable to better ourselves and our environment. I mean, you can train a child to not lie or steal. Is that not redeeming that child from that vice? You can work to prevent poverty, which would prevent the need to steal. Is that not redeeming some people from circumstances which could induce them to do bad things?

I don't think people are inherently good or bad. But we do have the ability to reason, adapt, experiment, help, and perfect various aspects of ourselves and our world. That is an inspiring goal and a worthy purpose, imo.

Ok so you see both good and bad in a man and he has the will inside him to choose either side and you don't know where that will came from or why some choose one way or the other, yet you have hope that one day given man's experiences in both bad and good, man will choose good right? So you see eventually men will learn from the mistakes of men and choose right at all times and the world will become perfect,right?

 

[idav]

As led by Gods example of not helping the child, right?

According to the tulip idea god would need the suffering of the damned in order for the elect to show the glory of god. In other words, god doesn't need to help as he already knows that 99% of the humans won't do anything until that rare 1% can come along and help a suffering human that God would have already known and chosen. Its a very rough theology to think a school shooting is necessary on order for gods miracle of a few heroes and saved souls come out of the woodwork.

 

[Falvlun]

Ok so you see both good and bad in a man and he has the will inside him to choose either side and you don't know where that will came from or why some choose one way or the other,

To clarify, I do think that our choices are heavily influenced both by our nature (individual personality in addition to human nature as developed via evolution) and our environment (nurture: how we were raised, where we were raised, our current circumstances, etc).

I also believe that our self-awareness, ability to reason, and our ability to predict or imagine future outcomes also gives us some measure of control over how we end up acting. I call this free-will, though this beliefs puts me in a minority among atheists.

yet you have hope that one day given man's experiences in both bad and good, man will choose good right? So you see eventually men will learn from the mistakes of men and choose right at all times and the world will become perfect,right?

No, I do not think that the world or humans will become perfect, but I think that we should at least strive for excellence.

It is my hope that humans will learn from their mistakes and continue building a better world. I believe we have already made many improvements, and that we will continue to do so.

Now, what do you find hopeless or purposeless in such a belief system?

 

[idav]

I disagree I attribute any horrid thing to my God. I attribute horrid things to men and sin and the slavery to sin.

That would make more sense with a god that isn't predetermining the fates. Or is it that gods chosen could be some of the sinners inflicting suffering?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes I disagree he did nothing. Or felt nothing. I cannot tell you where he was or what he did, But I can be sure God does not stand idle and his hand does intervene at his choosing.

How can you be sure?

Perhaps this is a supernatural faith that even I can't truly understand and unbelievers can't understand how I can have peace with this God who seemingly allows sin to rein and good to die.

What's the difference between "a supernatural faith that even I can't truly understand" and a gut feeling? Or between it and a refusal to deal with uncomfortable implications of your beliefs?

But what I really find hard to believe is no God, No higher being at all, no designer, all things come by chance with no purpose and no destination.

At this point, why is that your only other option? There's another option open: that God exists but isn't good. Or is sometimes good and sometimes not.

Can I ask you how you explain these tragic events with the school shootings and the abandoned suffering child from China? Do these events have any meaning to you at all? Who do you blame or hold accountable for the actions of men?

The people themselves. The people who played a role in creating the conditions that allowed the thing to happen. Quirks of human psychology. Those are a few possibilities; we don't have all the answers, obviously, but we can work toward finding them.

Do you see hope that man can redeem himself from this depraved state? Or is he even depraved? You have heard my views, I would really like to find out what if any comfort you have in seeing this chaos all around us.

I think the depravity of humanity has been oversold. Events like these are shocking, certainly, but remember that a big part of why they're so shocking is that they're rare. on the whole, things have been getting better for a long time.

Did you know that we're living in the point of history with the lowest probability of death by violence? Even in the most conflict-ridden parts of the planet, the probability of death by violence is only around 3%. In relatively peaceful parts of the world, it's less than 1%. If you look back through history, it's never been that low... even in societies we think of as peaceful and civilized.

But this doesn't work well with the religious rhetoric that we're being degraded by sin, and that Jesus has to come back and save us because of how horrible things have gotten.

However, I agree that things aren't perfect. I try to do my part to make things better. I've never had a problem with lack of hope, though. I've found that when I watch a kid solve some complex problem or put their minds toward making the world better, I can't help but feel hopeful for the future. Lack of hope has never been an issue for me.

Actually, it puzzles me a bit why you'd think that a lack of God would imply a lack of hope. Generally, I see it the opposite way: if God did exist and was the designer of the world I see around me, I would think that our situation would be very hopeless indeed. If this world is an expression of God's will, what hope do I have of effecting change on the problems I see? If this is "the best of all possible worlds" (to use one response to the problem of evil... though I don't know that it's the one you accept), then there's no point of me trying either: if a perfect God can't make things better than what we see around us, what hope do I have of doing a better job?

All in all, I think there's inherently more room for hope in an atheistic worldview than a theistic one. I don't have any need to try and shoehorn the human suffering I see around me into the perfect plan of a loving God. It isn't a threat to my philosophy to simply conclude that the universe doesn't care about us at all... but there's hope in that, because it means that the universe doesn't care to oppose us making things better.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes I disagree he did nothing. Or felt nothing. I cannot tell you where he was or what he did, But I can be sure God does not stand idle and his hand does intervene at his choosing.Perhaps this is a supernatural faith that even I can't truly understand and unbelievers can't understand how I can have peace with this God who seemingly allows sin to rein and good to die.

But what I really find hard to believe is no God, No higher being at all, no designer, all things come by chance with no purpose and no destination. Can I ask you how you explain these tragic events with the school shootings and the abandoned suffering child from China? Do these events have any meaning to you at all? Who do you blame or hold accountable for the actions of men? Do you see hope that man can redeem himself from this depraved state? Or is he even depraved? You have heard my views, I would really like to find out what if any comfort you have in seeing this chaos all around us.

I don't mean to answer for anyone; what I'm going to state is just my opinion on this.

• I think such tragic events are the result of people's actions, and it is my view that other people have to try to stop such crimes from being committed as much as they can. Whether or not those actions have any "meaning" is rather unimportant to me; I care more about the practical results of an action than any abstract concepts (e.g., any supposed hidden meaning or purpose) that may be attached to it.

• It seems to me that committing violence and acting violently toward other people is something that will always be existent in humans. It has always been this way, so we might as well try to reduce and/or minimize the adverse effects of such rather than mourn being imperfect, which is something that is an inherent part of being human and most likely won't change in the future.

• I don't see how much comfort (or lack thereof) one finds in holding a certain view is relevant to whether or not said view is realistic or accurate to real-world occurrences. People find comfort in all sorts of beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily mean their beliefs are consistent or coherent from a logical standpoint.

• As for the actions of people presumably lacking a "higher purpose," I actually think that trying to positively influence the world through one's actions and being able to do so, no matter how small said influence may be, is far more purposeful and comforting than blaming ourselves for something that we neither have control over nor can we change (i.e., being imperfect). The way I see it, if we're all supposed to have committed grave sins from the get-go and most likely to be damned anyway unless we're "elected" for some reason that we have no control over and can't change, then that takes away any purpose or meaning to our actions. We'd practically be puppets, not free individuals who are responsible for the actions they take and the outcomes thereof.

 

[averageJOE]

I have never said that God is in any way responsible for the sin of man and the effects that sin has on men to ignore a suffering child. By preordained, God chose the time that child would die and used the sin in men for eventual good in that we can be sure that child is with God now, and no longer suffering. I am sure there is a chain of events unfolding from this tragedy that are ordained by God. Perhaps God has used this tragedy at the hands of evil to wake us, many have been touched by this video and I can see God must have his hand in this touching.For me it is like God is saying "hey wake up people, look how man has become so hard of heart, dead by sin,that he can walk past a dying baby and go about his day untouched. Of course It is presumptuous of me to say what God made good from this tragic event. But I can trust he indeed knows more then us.

Your omniscient god, who is in complete "control", couldn't find any other way to get a message accross to man than injuring an innocent child? And you consider it a good act by your god to do this?

 

[Conståntine]

Your omniscient god, who is in complete "control", couldn't find any other way to get a message accross to man than injuring an innocent child? And you consider it a good act by your god to do this?

There are perhaps an infinite amount of ways for God to get someone's attention. Perhaps you can volunteer for him to use you to get his point across.

 

[averageJOE]

There are perhaps an infinite amount of ways for God to get someone's attention. Perhaps you can volunteer for him to use you to get his point across.

If he was truley omniscient and in complete controle then I wouldn't have to volunteer would I?

 

[Conståntine]

If he was truley omniscient and in complete controle then I wouldn't have to volunteer would I?

I take it the offer wasn't quite appealing to you. So much for you valiantly sacrificing yourself on behalf of suffering young souls


Having said that, are you an authority on how the omniscient should conduct themselves? If so, by what means have you arrived at this state of being?

 

[LuisDantas]

Having said that, are you an authority on how the omniscient should conduct themselves?

Predicting the actions of a supposedly supremely good and omniscient entity is in fact almost too easy. There are very few deviations allowed.

 

[Conståntine]

Predicting the actions of a supposedly supremely good and omniscient entity is in fact almost too easy. There are very few deviations allowed.

Can you tell me what the supreme omniscient entity will do next?

 

[LuisDantas]

Can you tell me what the supreme omniscient entity will do next?

Refuse to allow harm. Same as it did before and it will do after that.

 

[Conståntine]

Refuse to allow harm. Same as it did before and it will do after that.

Is that the same as what the supposedly supreme God would do as opposed to the supreme God? Is there a difference or are they all one in the same?

 

[LuisDantas]

There is a difference only in that one is supposed to be real, while the other is only a hypothetical entity.