Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[9Westy9]

... in the short term.

It's more comforting to think that you have a million dollars in the bank to think that you're broke, too. But if you actually don't have any money, will you be happier in the end if you live as if you're a millionaire until you've run up your credit cards and don't have any way to pay them off?

Good point. Although if there's nothing after death then the belief that person x is in heaven will have been more comforting.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good point. Although if there's nothing after death then the belief that person x is in heaven will have been more comforting.

... and the belief that he's in Hell will be less comforting. Both beliefs come in the package. I've seen believers very distressed at the idea that their loved ones are hellbound or are already there.

 

[9Westy9]

... and the belief that he's in Hell will be less comforting. Both beliefs come in the package. I've seen believers very distressed at the idea that their loved ones are hellbound or are already there.

This is also true.

 

[Lady B]

No real problems so far. Just wondering what you think of determinism vs free will. Do we have any free will or is everything determined by God?

I believe in compatibility of the two,both determination and free will exist. For example,A barren couple prays and asks God for children, he blesses them with children. Was it because they asked? Maybe, maybe God decided to answer their prayers and bless them with children,But those children were still pre-ordained by God to exist. I really struggle with putting this doctrine into understandable logic, I confess, and I will study more and perhaps give you a better answer soon.

I'll admit that a belief that there exists a perfect afterlife is more comforting than the view that there is nothing after death.


1) I can hardly see how atheism can be evil. Sure there's no "justice" but because atheism doesn't have any sort of "judge" it's unfair to call it evil because it doesn't punish murderers after they die on Earth

2) Not sure if this applies to you but doesn't God save anyone who is "truly repentant"? This would allow mass murderers to be saved and good people to go to hell.

3) I don't think a lack of punishment or a lack of justice is evil. I think Jesus would agree (John 3:16, Matthew 5:39)

I can't also see how My God is evil, fair enough? The Bible is filled with laws, justice, punishment, consequences, so a ending of no justice is just not acceptable to me,Yes a true repentant sinner is promised Heaven no matter his deeds, but I don't know where your getting good men are in hell at.As for Jesus, Christ said it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, rich being used derogatory, because his heart pursues the things in this world rather than the things of God.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die.

Very sad.

 

[9Westy9]

I believe in compatibility of the two,both determination and free will exist. For example,A barren couple prays and asks God for children, he blesses them with children. Was it because they asked? Maybe, maybe God decided to answer their prayers and bless them with children,But those children were still pre-ordained by God to exist. I really struggle with putting this doctrine into understandable logic, I confess, and I will study more and perhaps give you a better answer soon.

Sounds good. I quite like compatibilism too. I need to read up on it more though tbh

I can't also see how My God is evil, fair enough?

I know of a few arguments but I'd need you to define God first as lots of people have different definitions

The Bible is filled with laws, justice, punishment, consequences, so a ending of no justice is just not acceptable to me

I guess it's understandable. Whether or not there is justice after death is ultimately a fairly pointless debate as neither side have any real evidence for their point of view.

Yes a true repentant sinner is promised Heaven no matter his deeds, but I don't know where your getting good men are in hell at.

Mainly the common Christian doctrine that only believers go to heaven which would send atheists who did good deeds to hell

As for Jesus, Christ said it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, rich being used derogatory, because his heart pursues the things in this world rather than the things of God.

agreed.

 

[Lady B]

That's my interpretation as well.


I think that in the model given by the Bible, ultimately, God's responsible. Personally, I don't feel any particular need to argue whether he knowingly allows people to act the way they do or whether he compels them to do it. Either way, God's culpable for what humans do.


How is this relevant? In the other thread, you were the one who suggested that belief in God is a comfort. Not that it's more of a comfort than atheism; that it's a comfort in its own right.

I think it's painfully obvious that sometimes things happen that aren't comforting. They're tragedies. They motivate us to make things better in the future.


Why would they believe that? I mean, are you sure that all the children who were killed in the Sandy Hook shooting were part of the "elect"? Are you sure that the shooter isn't?

What if God saw fit to send Adam Lanza to Heaven and the children to Hell? Given your theology, can you say for sure that this didn't happen?


I say that the morality of what you're doing depends on whether your beliefs are true. If you leave it up to God to comfort the afflicted and punish the evil, then if you're wrong, the afflicted go uncomforted and the evil go unpunished. I think it's much better to try to comfort the afflicted and punish evil as best we can in the here and now.

Ok lets put yourself in this tragedy, can you honestly say if your child's life was viciously taken by an evil man, your OK with your beautiful child and her killer having the same fate? How is that really possible? Do you not watch the news and hope that a killer or child molester gets caught and punished? Should a serial killer be given the same peaceful end of existence as his victims? Now I see why evil people like Hitler killed themselves when faced with punishment, they think that is the end and they will not suffer at the hands of men or God. I used to wonder how they could prefer God's judgment and go fast before him, but maybe they were Atheists after all, and escaped the only punishment they would receive.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't also see how My God is evil, fair enough?

You can't? Here's a hint:

Earlier, you implied (I think) that Adam Lanza was evil for killing all those children, and that he deserved to be punished.

You've also argued that God is responsible for those children being killed.

Is killing children a good act or not? How can you say it's a good act when you're talking about God, but an evil act when talking about the murderer?

If you've decided that it's a good act because it came from God, then doesn't this mean that Lanza didn't do anything wrong? After all, what could possibly be bad about fulfilling God's will if God truly is good?

 

[Me Myself]

Karma and Lila.

Karma: the children may have done something in other lifes that merited such thing. Though it is also possible the children were very wise souls that wanted to somehow teach something to people around them by their deaths.

Lila: God is every person, both good and bad. God chooses to be such. God is the victim and the victimizer. Because of this, while you can say God is "evil" you´ll also have to say he is "good". Some people will feel bliss, others suffering. It all happens according to God´s will.

 

[Me Myself]

... and the belief that he's in Hell will be less comforting. Both beliefs come in the package. I've seen believers very distressed at the idea that their loved ones are hellbound or are already there.

completely true.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok lets put yourself in this tragedy, can you honestly say if your child's life was viciously taken by an evil man, your OK with your beautiful child and her killer having the same fate? How is that really possible?

I don't think I would be okay with it.

Do you not watch the news and hope that a killer or child molester gets caught and punished? Should a serial killer be given the same peaceful end of existence as his victims?

You're confusing what should be with what is. I don't think that everything in the world is as it should be.

Now I see why evil people like Hitler killed themselves when faced with punishment, they think that is the end and they will not suffer at the hands of men or God. I used to wonder how they could prefer God's judgment and go fast before him, but maybe they were Atheists after all, and escaped the only punishment they would receive.....

Or maybe they repented and got a free pass to Heaven.

Are you really a Calvinist? It sounds quite a bit like you're arguing that people's salvation is dependent on their works.

 

[Lady B]

You can't? Here's a hint:

Earlier, you implied (I think) that Adam Lanza was evil for killing all those children, and that he deserved to be punished.

You've also argued that God is responsible for those children being killed.

Is killing children a good act or not? How can you say it's a good act when you're talking about God, but an evil act when talking about the murderer?

If you've decided that it's a good act because it came from God, then doesn't this mean that Lanza didn't do anything wrong? After all, what could possibly be bad about fulfilling God's will if God truly is good?

God knows no sin, evil is sin, God did not tell Adam to go kill those children, Adam did this from his own depravity. You cannot hold God accountable for Adams sin.As far as God pre determining these children's fate,I believe that is true. We just don't know what Good can also come from this down the line, perhaps God will use this tragedy to bring his elect to him, perhaps these parents who are mourning now will use it for God later. We just can't know his plan and how it could possibly be turned into something good or how this can also be seen as Grace to the children that were saved on this tragic day.I struggle with some of the same things as you do, I understand how you have some of the ideas you have, But I do have faith that you don't have,and as simple as that sounds faith covers a multitude of what'if's.

 

[Lady B]

I don't think I would be okay with it.


You're confusing what should be with what is. I don't think that everything in the world is as it should be.


Or maybe they repented and got a free pass to Heaven.

Are you really a Calvinist? It sounds quite a bit like you're arguing that people's salvation is dependent on their works.

I am a Calvinist and certainly do not believe in a workbased salvation, not sure where you see that, but I make no allowances in this area at all.

 

[Me Myself]

God knows no sin, evil is sin, God did not tell Adam to go kill those children, Adam did this from his own depravity. You cannot hold God accountable for Adams sin.As far as God pre determining these children's fate,I believe that is true. We just don't know what Good can also come from this down the line, perhaps God will use this tragedy to bring his elect to him, perhaps these parents who are mourning now will use it for God later. We just can't know his plan and how it could possibly be turned into something good or how this can also be seen as Grace to the children that were saved on this tragic day.I struggle with some of the same things as you do, I understand how you have some of the ideas you have, But I do have faith that you don't have,and as simple as that sounds faith covers a multitude of what'if's.

Why? Was God unable to bring this good without tragedy?

About "plan", "plan" doesn´t make sense for an omnipotent deity. A plan is what a human makes to get a goal. An omnipotent being doesn´t need plans to get his goals. He just gets them. In the exact way that he wants it.

There is no logical possibility for a "plan" here.

About the covering you say faith brings you, that does sound like simple denial for someone who doesnt´t have the "faith" you speak of.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Well just as bold as the IP, I shall be; this IMO is a 3MB concept if I have ever heard one. When will People realize they are what they have made Humanity, not the other way around. We are given all of the tools needed to not only protect ourselves, but to cure diseases instead. This is a dead concept due to entertainment being the leading "want" of society. Imagine if everyone would do their best at everything they do (as long; of course; as it does not hurt/injure another) and not do to others what they would not want done to them. Look in the mirror and start bucking up and quit blaming everyone else until you yourself are blameless

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am a Calvinist and certainly do not believe in a workbased salvation, not sure where you see that, but I make no allowances in this area at all.

I see it in your apparent assumption that the evil will be punished in Hell. Isn't the Calvinistic view that whether a person is punished in Hell or rewarded in Heaven is based only on whether they're part of "the elect" and not on how they behaved in life?

 

[Me Myself]

Ok lets put yourself in this tragedy, can you honestly say if your child's life was viciously taken by an evil man, your OK with your beautiful child and her killer having the same fate?

The emotional passions of a man in great grief an anger equals justice? That´s mad...

Do you not watch the news and hope that a killer or child molester gets caught and punished?

I generaly just wish they catch him so he doesn´t keep molesting or killing. If I truly think about it, I feel sad about him/her, because the children are at least already out of his/her grasp, but he is still stuck with himself.

If I were to wish anything it would be that we all learn to stop doing stupid "#R% and be compassionate with each other already. Wishing the killer eternal suffering wouldn´t really be part of my wishes. I do assume he will spend time in an awful reincarnation or purgatory realm after his dead, but it won´t be eternal. Eternal suffering would be infinitelly worse than anything he has ever done or is capable of doing.

 

[Lady B]

I don't think I would be okay with it.


You're confusing what should be with what is. I don't think that everything in the world is as it should be.


Or maybe they repented and got a free pass to Heaven.

Are you really a Calvinist? It sounds quite a bit like you're arguing that people's salvation is dependent on their works.

I am not trying to confuse with what ifs or what should bes here, I am trying only to show you how I see what a lack of justice is and what it is not, the justice of God in my scriptures is perfect Justice beyond my imaginings even, and to think of none whatsover is really rather frightning to me. I am not sure how the atheist is just fine with that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God knows no sin, evil is sin, God did not tell Adam to go kill those children, Adam did this from his own depravity. You cannot hold God accountable for Adams sin.

I'm just going by what you said. Didn't you argue that God is responsible for those children being murdered? Here's what you said in your first post of this thread:

God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

As far as God pre determining these children's fate,I believe that is true. We just don't know what Good can also come from this down the line, perhaps God will use this tragedy to bring his elect to him, perhaps these parents who are mourning now will use it for God later. We just can't know his plan and how it could possibly be turned into something good or how this can also be seen as Grace to the children that were saved on this tragic day.I struggle with some of the same things as you do, I understand how you have some of the ideas you have, But I do have faith that you don't have,and as simple as that sounds faith covers a multitude of what'if's.

And a multitude of contradictions, apparently.

If the killing really was God's will, and God predetermined that those children would die when, where and how they did, and God will use it for some divine purpose, then Adam Lanza was an instrument of God. How can you condemn him for carrying out God's will? You just finished saying that even though you don't see how it was a good act, you know that it was. Why can't you extend to Adam Lanza the same latitude you extend to God, especially when we're talking about the exact same act!

Please... just give me a straight answer: was the murder of those children good or bad? If it was good, then both God and Lanza were right to make it happen. If it was bad, then both God and Lanza were wrong to make it happen. Which is it? It's hypocritical to praise one of them and condemn the other.

 

[Me Myself]

I am not trying to confuse with what ifs or what should bes here, I am trying only to show you how I see what a lack of justice is and what it is not, the justice of God in my scriptures is perfect Justice beyond my imaginings even, and to think of none whatsover is really rather frightning to me. I am not sure how the atheist is just fine with that.

I am not an atheist, but if I had to choose between a soul in hell and the rest in bliss or every soul´s journey simply ending with he biological body, I would choose the last one without hesitation.

There is no greater evil than eternal torture.

Then again, he is not an atheist because he prefers life ending after termination of physical body, he is an atheist because he BELIEVES that to be true, and has not found anything disputing it to be convincing enough.