Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Lady B]

Which one? I said nothing about Justice.




Courtrooms have little to do with Justice. Justice can only be attained by developing at last a modicum of good will and moral integrity among most members of a community. And it is not a reactive or vengeful activity, but rather preventive and proactive in nature.

In essence, this world is not really just, but that is all the more reason for us to nurture love for fairness and good will. Even if it will not be "enough", that only means that its need is that much greater.

I may have misquoted the wrong person? I was responding to the Atheist's premise of death as the end for both the victim and the murderer. I agree court is not the ultimate justice, however since the Atheist position is punishment and award being in this life only, the only justice they could get would be from mens hands and so I am curious how that would play out.

I am all for preventive and proactive measures, and I wish we all could utilize these and function cohesively
.

 

[Lady B]

God is not responsible for the deaths of children at the hands of a murderer. As the Bible explains at James 1:13; "With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." I believe the true God hates the wicked acts of men who are responsible for so much suffering. Genesis 6:7 says that "God felt hurt at his heart" over the badness and violence that filled the earth in Noah's day.
The bible explains that the first human murderer "originated with the wicked one (Satan the Devil)." 1 John 3:4. The Bible assures us that God will soon destroy the wicked, and resurrect back to life those in his memory. (Acts 24:15) So, IMO, God is not to blame for the wicked acts of men who ignore and disobey his commands. (Deuteronomy 32:4-6)

I am not saying God is responsible for the sinful act of men, I am however saying scripture reveals God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, and he did pre-ordain life and death for his own Glory. God cannot sin and cannot be accused of sin, these are acts of depravity in men, not attributes of God.

 

[LuisDantas]

I may have misquoted the wrong person? I was responding to the Atheist's premise of death as the end for both the victim and the murderer.

Oh, that is true far as I can tell.

I agree court is not the ultimate justice, however since the Atheist position is punishment and award being in this life only, the only justice they could get would be from mens hands and so I am curious how that would play out.

I don't have such an expectation.

I am all for preventive and proactive measures, and I wish we all could utilize these and function cohesively
.

 

[Me Myself]

But where does he get this idea? why is it that me believeing in Scripture, in a God,is less easy to believe than the aithiests end?

o.o.... wow are you serious?

You do know there are talking donkeys in the bible, right??? I mean don´t get me wrong, I am bananas enough to believe donkeys talking, but at least I know it is the most bananas position.

They have no found evidence to support your god or hell just like they have not found evidence to support Zeus and the Tartarus, or Thor and Neiflheim.

There is as much evidence of heaven as of the land of Oz.

and you seem completely unaware that your most popular argument comes from how you wish things were, not from what there is evidence for.

It´s like if I told you: If you hop three times nude in your backyard, tomorrow there wll b no world hunger.

Then you tell me "how do you know that?"

and I reply you "What do you mean how do I know that? what do you prefer? a world with world HUNGER?!! It is so arrogant of you not to hop three times naked in your backyard, and so arrogant of you to think that your unwilligness is more important than ending world hunger!"

I´d be insane (okay, I am a bit insane anyways ) to justify myself such, because simply because we would want something to be some way does not mean this is the way it is.

So when you say "Oh, but what do you prefer? that justice happens after death or that it doesn´?" it has 0 relevance to whether there is justice after death or not.

And hell is always unfair anyways. Infinite torture is about the one thing that cannot be morally okay from any remotely compassionate morality. Morality is about getting people to NOT suffer, not the other way around. and if you say that then we need hell to control people you would be wrong again: an infinite punishment is not necessary.

You would need to prove lower crime on countries were people believe in hell than on countries where people dont for that argument.

 

[Avoice]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

NWT (1 Kings 14:12-14) 12*“And you yourself, rise up, go to your house. When your feet come into the city the child will certainly die. 13*And all Israel will indeed bewail him and bury him, because this one alone of Jer·o·bo′am’s will come into a burial place; for the reason that something good toward Jehovah the God of Israel has been found in him in the house of Jer·o·bo′am. 1.*.*.

Though most infant death is far removed from God's mind IMHO, some are to preserve faith in a faithless generation as the verse above indicates. No evil here just mercy and preservation of faith.

Massacres like Newtown are due to humans not Jehovah God. The evil is in Satan and his suggestions to weakened human minds.

 

[horizon_mj1]

From the posts that I have read, it is still evident that no one can dispute the fact that we Humans are responsible for our own actions. We always try to find someone or something else to blame to horrible things that we do (and don't do). How can you call yourself a person of faith if it is the very faith you claim yourself to be is blamed for "evil" or "wrong" doings? Rather or not you believe in God/Gods/The Divine, it can not be overlooked that we are what made the world what it is today. I have never seen on the news or anywhere else that an Angel, or Divine Being of any kind walked into a school and opened fire on anyone; this is done by people and can be prevented by people. Quit being so self righteous and placing the blame where it does not belong

 

[Me Myself]

I am not saying God is responsible for the sinful act of men, I am however saying scripture reveals God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, and he did pre-ordain life and death for his own Glory. God cannot sin and cannot be accused of sin, these are acts of depravity in men, not attributes of God.

You must have missed a lot of posts in this thread

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

This is where I see tyranny and evil, and such great potential for easy abuse. I also see evil god making laws about slavery that are anything other than "thou shalt not." But rather than having a true humanitarian law in a world where inhumane treatment was common, it was things most people already agree to anyways (not killing, not stealing), and more reinforcing of not questioning authority by honoring thy mother and thy father, even though honor should always be earned, never mandated.

 

[McBell]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Hold on a second...
You believe that everything is pre-ordained by God according to some master plan?
Yet you started a thread complaining about how some people "slander" your god?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not saying God is responsible for the sinful act of men, I am however saying scripture reveals God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, and he did pre-ordain life and death for his own Glory. God cannot sin and cannot be accused of sin, these are acts of depravity in men, not attributes of God.

Can't you see how this contradicts your earlier claim that everything is preordained by God?

 

[Falvlun]

From the posts that I have read, it is still evident that no one can dispute the fact that we Humans are responsible for our own actions. We always try to find someone or something else to blame to horrible things that we do (and don't do). How can you call yourself a person of faith if it is the very faith you claim yourself to be is blamed for "evil" or "wrong" doings? Rather or not you believe in God/Gods/The Divine, it can not be overlooked that we are what made the world what it is today. I have never seen on the news or anywhere else that an Angel, or Divine Being of any kind walked into a school and opened fire on anyone; this is done by people and can be prevented by people. Quit being so self righteous and placing the blame where it does not belong

The thing is, horizon, that atheists DO take responsibility for the suffering that humans cause. We don't believe that there is a God who is responsible for anything precisely because he doesn't exist.

The issue is when you have a belief of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God on one hand, and the very real existence of suffering on the other hand. The two just don't line up. If God is omnipotent, he is capable of eliminating suffering; if God is omniscient, then he knows how to avoid suffering; and if God is omnibenevolent, then his desire should be to eliminate suffering. But suffering exists, so something just doesn't add up.

 

[Falvlun]

. God did not tell Adam to do this, Adam did it period, the sin is Adams, not God's

But you said that God "ordained" Adam to do this. What do you think that ordained means?

Ordain means to order, command, decree, enact by law or edict, etc. No one suggests that God whispered in Adam's ear to do this, but if God ordained his actions, then the result is precisely the same. God caused Adam to do this, by his command, order, and decree.

 

[Falvlun]

I am not trying to confuse with what ifs or what should bes here, I am trying only to show you how I see what a lack of justice is and what it is not, the justice of God in my scriptures is perfect Justice beyond my imaginings even, and to think of none whatsover is really rather frightning to me. I am not sure how the atheist is just fine with that.

Then God's justice is completely different from any sort of concept of justice that humans have, Lady B. How do you even know that you want this sort of justice, when the word, when God uses it, is something completely alien from how we use the word?

Is it just to torture someone, anyone, for eternity? If Hitler burned a million years for each of the 11 million people killed in the Holocaust, he'd be tortured for 11 trillion years. Yet according to God's justice, he still wouldn't be done being punished. Do you think that anyone deserves that? Is that really justice?

Is it just to punish Hitler, and the good Buddhist who never harmed a soul, in the exact same manner and duration?

Is it just to reward someone for something they took no part in? (Your elect?)

Is it just to punish someone for something which they had no control over? (The ones God predestined to hell?)

Is it just to punish someone else (Jesus) for the crimes of other people? (That could be considered mercy, but it's certainly not justice.)

God's justice is not justice, in any sense that we understand it. And I for one want no part of any of that. That sense of justice alone is enough to make someone think that God is malevolent.

 

[Lady B]

Then God's justice is completely different from any sort of concept of justice that humans have, Lady B. How do you even know that you want this sort of justice, when the word, when God uses it, is something completely alien from how we use the word?

Is it just to torture someone, anyone, for eternity? If Hitler burned a million years for each of the 11 million people killed in the Holocaust, he'd be tortured for 11 trillion years. Yet according to God's justice, he still wouldn't be done being punished. Do you think that anyone deserves that? Is that really justice?

Is it just to punish Hitler, and the good Buddhist who never harmed a soul, in the exact same manner and duration?

Is it just to reward someone for something they took no part in? (Your elect?)

Is it just to punish someone for something which they had no control over? (The ones God predestined to hell?)

Is it just to punish someone else (Jesus) for the crimes of other people? (That could be considered mercy, but it's certainly not justice.)

God's justice is not justice, in any sense that we understand it. And I for one want no part of any of that. That sense of justice alone is enough to make someone think that God is malevolent.

The problem here is, you who have the fear of the concept of eternal hell, don't have the fear of God to avoid it. I do not have this fear, I know that God created man for his own Glory, not for mans Glory, I Can understand that He made me, He can kill me, he can punish me for not giving him his due respect for his creation. You see that you are Good, God gave us ways to measure Good so that it is not relative morality or subjective speculations, and he has told us that no man is Good, no man deserves heaven, it is a gift by grace and not by works. So I am sorry there is no good Buddhist in the scriptures, there is no good Christian ,there is no good Muslim, Christ alone was Good . Not preaching here, just saying my belief.

And so when I handle the concept of Justice, I do have peace that what seems unjust in my eyes, Is certainly not the same as How God sees. He is not bound by a period of time or the morality of the day, He knows all, Created all and surely I can have peace in that. What I don't have peace in, is the concept of all our fate being in the hands of men who are limited to a human knowledge. I see no hope in that, no purpose at all. So we have totally different mindsets, OK I get that, But frankly It takes way more faith to believe your way then it does mine,Imo.

 

[Lady B]

Is it just to punish someone for something which they had no control over? (The ones God predestined to hell?)

predestination is a hard concept for most to understand, even me, however I look at it like this..

Lets say I write a book and after It is finished I decide to pitch it. Maybe I keep some of the parts of the book and use them in another book or maybe I pitch the whole thing. It is my choice, I wrote the book ,did I not? who is anyone else to tel me no? You can't just pitch your book, It is not fair....Hey I wrote it, I have the rights to do with it whatever I choose.
[/quote]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem here is, you who have the fear of the concept of eternal hell, don't have the fear of God to avoid it.

How would fear of God make someone avoid Hell?

You say you're a Calvinist, but you've made several statements in this thread that seem to me to be incompatible with Calvinism in the sense I know the term (i.e. "TULIP")

 

[Lady B]

How would fear of God make someone avoid Hell?

You say you're a Calvinist, but you've made several statements in this thread that seem to me to be incompatible with Calvinism in the sense I know the term (i.e. "TULIP")

You don't know who is the elect,You very well could be, you may spend your whole life in denial and at one point God will call you out, so you have wasted your life denying him and leading others to do the same. I realize calling you a possible elect from a belief you don't share could be offensive to you, I am sorry, But the thing is I do believe no man will enter heaven or hell without being predestined to do so, But we ourselves do not know who is in this book, so we must consider all as having that possibility. Calvinist have gotten a bad wrap really, as a matter of fact when I came to these forums, I originally just put Christian as my religion, because of the controversy my beliefs cause others.Then I noticed how many different Christians there are and some who call themselves Christian but do not follow scripture at all. So I decided to not hide behind this label and take the criticism as it comes. My Calvinist views do not separate me from the Christian who believes in no predestination, as far as salvation is concerned, we still must follow the great command, spreading the gospel,to everyone. Calvinist's contrary to popular belief don't rest on their laurels, God has told us " faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God" . God uses his word to draw his elect and that is what we are told to do, to all, not some.Some say the Calvinist view is cruel because it takes away the will of man to choose God or not, I disagree, God has given men this will at the same time he chose you, he gave you the will to choose." No man cometh to the Lord less he draw him" The plain truth is, No man chooses that which is right.

 

[Falvlun]

The problem here is, you who have the fear of the concept of eternal hell, don't have the fear of God to avoid it. I do not have this fear, I know that God created man for his own Glory, not for mans Glory, I Can understand that He made me, He can kill me, he can punish me for not giving him his due respect for his creation. You see that you are Good, God gave us ways to measure Good so that it is not relative morality or subjective speculations, and he has told us that no man is Good, no man deserves heaven, it is a gift by grace and not by works. So I am sorry there is no good Buddhist in the scriptures, there is no good Christian ,there is no good Muslim, Christ alone was Good . Not preaching here, just saying my belief.

My argument wasn't that Hell is scary, or that I am perfect. My argument was that eternal torture is unjust, by all conventional understanding of the word justice.

And so when I handle the concept of Justice, I do have peace that what seems unjust in my eyes, Is certainly not the same as How God sees. He is not bound by a period of time or the morality of the day, He knows all, Created all and surely I can have peace in that.

So that follows that God would know that eternal torture is unjust too.

I mean, you believe that God gave us the ability to know right from wrong, correct? Why would he write it in our hearts that eternal torture is wrong, when he thinks it is right? Why would he trick us?

What I don't have peace in, is the concept of all our fate being in the hands of men who are limited to a human knowledge. I see no hope in that, no purpose at all. So we have totally different mindsets, OK I get that, But frankly It takes way more faith to believe your way then it does mine,Imo.

I really don't have this need for vengeance you appear to have. Why would your life have no purpose because someone else didn't get eternal torture for his crimes? I mean, my purpose is to be a good person, help out when I can, utilize my talents, broaden my knowledge and experience, build a family, make friends, make cookies, and enjoy life. You can find no pleasure or purpose in any of those things if Hell doesn't exist? I find that to be a sad, wasteful sort of existence.

And I certainly cannot fathom having peace with the idea that people will be eternally tortured. How could you enjoy yourself knowing that it is likely that I, someone who has never killed anyone, will be burning in Hell for eternity simply because God didn't choose me or because I didn't choose God?

A just, omnibenevolent God may be preferable to what I see as reality, but the God your beliefs portray simply doesn't provide justice in any sense of the word I understand.

Could you explain why my view takes more faith than yours?

 

[horizon_mj1]

But you said that God "ordained" Adam to do this. What do you think that ordained means?

Ordain means to order, command, decree, enact by law or edict, etc. No one suggests that God whispered in Adam's ear to do this, but if God ordained his actions, then the result is precisely the same. God caused Adam to do this, by his command, order, and decree.

This is where I am a bit torn on Atheism; I do believe that we are responsible for ourselves (as in Atheism) but believe there are "Dominate" Elements in which are responsible for "certain things". If there is an Absolute (which yes I think there is, just in no way in which is comprehensible to us) why should They take Their Time to do something we have the proper tools to do ourselves? I do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve to be Historical (yet the Bible IMO is a mixture of both History and Aesop Fables (combined with personal opinions as well) which is used by ones who do believe in it as History for an excuse to do what they want and take no blame.

 

[Falvlun]

The plain truth is, No man chooses that which is right.

Now that is a sad, hopeless philosophy. Waay more depressing than simple atheism could ever hope to be. No wonder you think there is no purpose or pleasure to be gained from life.