Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Me Myself]

Just in case you missed it B

Why? Was God unable to bring this good without tragedy?

About "plan", "plan" doesn´t make sense for an omnipotent deity. A plan is what a human makes to get a goal. An omnipotent being doesn´t need plans to get his goals. He just gets them. In the exact way that he wants it.

There is no logical possibility for a "plan" here.

About the covering you say faith brings you, that does sound like simple denial for someone who doesnt´t have the "faith" you speak of.

The emotional passions of a man in great grief an anger equals justice? That´s mad...



I generaly just wish they catch him so he doesn´t keep molesting or killing. If I truly think about it, I feel sad about him/her, because the children are at least already out of his/her grasp, but he is still stuck with himself.

If I were to wish anything it would be that we all learn to stop doing stupid "#R% and be compassionate with each other already. Wishing the killer eternal suffering wouldn´t really be part of my wishes. I do assume he will spend time in an awful reincarnation or purgatory realm after his dead, but it won´t be eternal. Eternal suffering would be infinitelly worse than anything he has ever done or is capable of doing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not trying to confuse with what ifs or what should bes here, I am trying only to show you how I see what a lack of justice is and what it is not, the justice of God in my scriptures is perfect Justice beyond my imaginings even, and to think of none whatsover is really rather frightning to me. I am not sure how the atheist is just fine with that.

I'm not okay with it and I don't see why you think I would be.

I've never argued that the world is perfect; I leave that to the religious people.

There are lots of problems in the world... more than enough to keep us all busy for a long, long time. But I think it's better to try to actually fix them than to sit on our metaphorical butts, assuming that some magic being will swoop down and make everything better, or thinking that when we die, we'll all be transported to a fantastic invisible realm where all wrongs are righted.

 

[Lady B]

I see it in your apparent assumption that the evil will be punished in Hell. Isn't the Calvinistic view that whether a person is punished in Hell or rewarded in Heaven is based only on whether they're part of "the elect" and not on how they behaved in life?

We do not know who is God's elect, only he does, so does this mean a Calvinist will not care about the destiny of persons because it is already pre determined? No God knows his elect, It says in scripture He knew before the foundations of the earth and their names are written in his book. It is not a work-based salvation that brings the elect to God, It is God's calling them by his word. None knows If they are the elect or not and all who are called will come. What they do in this life does not determine them elect or not elect, this was God's choosing not ours and I would wish all are the elect, but it is not written.

Then there is Grace...Consider For a moment you are a creator, you build an island, you put some people animals etc...you Can do anything you like to this island and its inhabitants, destroy it in one swoop of your hand, or choose out of this island things you want to save and let other things just kind of go their own way eventually destroying itself. The grace is not only who you saved out of this lot, but that you let the rest live and enjoy their lives even though they will destroy themselves eventually.You could just blow them down at any moment yet you choose to let them live another day, experience another joy even curse you and mock you committing all vile of sins. My point is I would not see you as evil, I would see you as merciful, after all it is your creation right?
I believe I am one of the elect based on my scriptures, however I in no way deserve it or earned it over anyone else, It is grace that bought me and grace alone. I do not know who is the elect and who is not, none does, you could be, and so could anyone, I will treat you no different and were we in a different setting I would seek to share God's word with you in hopes that God would use it to bring you to him as well. I hope that doesn't cross the lines and come across as preachy, I do not intend that, Just trying to show Grace in a understandable way.

 

[Lady B]

I'm just going by what you said. Didn't you argue that God is responsible for those children being murdered? Here's what you said in your first post of this thread:




And a multitude of contradictions, apparently.

If the killing really was God's will, and God predetermined that those children would die when, where and how they did, and God will use it for some divine purpose, then Adam Lanza was an instrument of God. How can you condemn him for carrying out God's will? You just finished saying that even though you don't see how it was a good act, you know that it was. Why can't you extend to Adam Lanza the same latitude you extend to God, especially when we're talking about the exact same act!

Please... just give me a straight answer: was the murder of those children good or bad? If it was good, then both God and Lanza were right to make it happen. If it was bad, then both God and Lanza were wrong to make it happen. Which is it? It's hypocritical to praise one of them and condemn the other.

No It is not good that Adam Lanza killed those kids, however God does use the evil we do to bring about good, Good we can't possibly forsee while lamenting the act of man. God did not tell Adam to do this, Adam did it period, the sin is Adams, not God's

 

[Lady B]

I'm not okay with it and I don't see why you think I would be.

I've never argued that the world is perfect; I leave that to the religious people.

There are lots of problems in the world... more than enough to keep us all busy for a long, long time. But I think it's better to try to actually fix them than to sit on our metaphorical butts, assuming that some magic being will swoop down and make everything better, or thinking that when we die, we'll all be transported to a fantastic invisible realm where all wrongs are righted.

well I don't make this stuff up man......

 

[Lady B]

I am not an atheist, but if I had to choose between a soul in hell and the rest in bliss or every soul´s journey simply ending with he biological body, I would choose the last one without hesitation.

There is no greater evil than eternal torture.

Then again, he is not an atheist because he prefers life ending after termination of physical body, he is an atheist because he BELIEVES that to be true, and has not found anything disputing it to be convincing enough.

But where does he get this idea? why is it that me believeing in Scripture, in a God,is less easy to believe than the aithiests end?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No It is not good that Adam Lanza killed those kids, however God does use the evil we do to bring about good, Good we can't possibly forsee while lamenting the act of man. God did not tell Adam to do this, Adam did it period, the sin is Adams, not God's

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said that everything that happens was preordained by God. If this is true, then God did kill those children; Adam Lanza was just the weapon God used to do it. If God is responsible for everything, then God is responsible for this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We do not know who is God's elect, only he does, so does this mean a Calvinist will not care about the destiny of persons because it is already pre determined? No God knows his elect, It says in scripture He knew before the foundations of the earth and their names are written in his book. It is not a work-based salvation that brings the elect to God, It is God's calling them by his word. None knows If they are the elect or not and all who are called will come. What they do in this life does not determine them elect or not elect, this was God's choosing not ours and I would wish all are the elect, but it is not written.

So then if a person is part of "the elect", then it doesn't matter how many children he kills - he's still going to Heaven. Right?

I do not know who is the elect and who is not, none does, you could be, and so could anyone,

If this is true, then how can you be so sure that the good will be rewarded in Heaven and the evil will be punished in Hell? If you really don't know who is the elect and who isn't, then where's the comfort that you talked about earlier?

 

[Lady B]

Just in case you missed it B

sorry I am getting there, I know I am slow, but I have to actually think and type at the same time here and darned If that doesn't take skill.....

Ok I am fully aware of your issues with eternal damnation,I don't think I want to go there in this thread but lets look at what you do say. You wish for punishment, even after death, good for you, you should, it is natural to do so, what I find unnatural is ones willingness to believe that God is evil based on his punishment and rewards.

As for your problem with my use of the word plan, well it is my word usage that may be the problem,I am not sure what word to use actually but your right in that God certainly does not keep a planner in his pocket and is bound by that plan. But and a big butt here, God is bound by his word, his promises, his covenants, He can never lie or change his mind about something he has promised his people, so in that respect I used the word plan from my own mind but recant it now, sorry.

your question about why God uses tragedy to bring good, when he could just cause good apart from tragedy, well I honestly don't know the answer to that, but it is a very good question and one I would like to have some time with if you don't mind. fair enough? Don't worry I won't forget it, I wrote it in my planner.....

 

[Lady B]

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said that everything that happens was preordained by God. If this is true, then God did kill those children; Adam Lanza was just the weapon God used to do it. If God is responsible for everything, then God is responsible for this.

No I am not putting God and man in the same category and making God an acomplice to a sinfull act. I am saying Yes, God did ordain this, and at the same time Adam committed the act of murder.The sin. Adams depravity brings God's wrath onto him, while at the same exact time God was in control.

The contradiction is your mind cannot except what scripture tells us, men are wicked and deserve hell, God is good and just. God does not commit sin, men do, But God did create the world and designed it and us. He is not on vacation when men do these outrageous acts, he is omnipotent which means He though without sin ordained who will live who will die, there days were numbered before the earth was formed.

I admit some things are a mystery, But scripture does put God in control, It does show all things are pre-ordained and it does show that while God is perfect and cannot sin, he has taken life as he pleased. Why? I just don't know any more than you, why do I believe it, if it is so complicated? Because I believe in a being with a much higher intellegence than myself or any man , I believe God created the earth and all its inhabitants for his own Glory and that Glory is seen by God, not us. sorry but that is the best I can do to try to explain God's responsability for Adam Lanzas sinful act....

 

[Copernicus]

I'm thinking of a line from the Gospel of Matthew:

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You say that God knowingly set in motion the events that caused so much tragedy, including this last horrific event in Newtown. I know that the line from Matthew is supposed to be applied to human beings and not God, but I see a double standard here, if that is how it applies. These are bitter fruit from God's tree.

So you ask whether God should be considered evil, given what he caused to happen to those children. You say not, because you believe that there is some higher purpose God had in mind that justified those deaths and the agony they caused those who loved them. That act was evil. What happened there was a case of evil, and your belief system dictates that all evil has its roots in God.

So all I can conclude here is that God is either evil or non-existent. Lady B, no offense here, but you make me glad to be able to choose the latter--to be an atheist. I would not want to live in a universe where the former were true.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No I am not putting God and man in the same category and making God an acomplice to a sinfull act. I am saying Yes, God did ordain this, and at the same time Adam committed the act of murder.The sin. Adams depravity brings God's wrath onto him, while at the same exact time God was in control.

So God was in control when those children were killed? If so, then God isn't an accomplice; he's the perpetrator.

The contradiction is your mind cannot except what scripture tells us, men are wicked and deserve hell, God is good and just.

That's right: I can't accept logically contradictory things just because I read them.

God does not commit sin, men do,

What does this mean? I can take it two ways:

- killing children is evil, and when it happens it's not God's fault.
- killing children isn't evil when God does it.

But God did create the world and designed it and us. He is not on vacation when men do these outrageous acts, he is omnipotent which means He though without sin ordained who will live who will die, there days were numbered before the earth was formed.

I admit some things are a mystery, But scripture does put God in control, It does show all things are pre-ordained and it does show that while God is perfect and cannot sin, he has taken life as he pleased. Why? I just don't know any more than you, why do I believe it, if it is so complicated? Because I believe in a being with a much higher intellegence than myself or any man , I believe God created the earth and all its inhabitants for his own Glory and that Glory is seen by God, not us. sorry but that is the best I can do to try to explain God's responsability for Adam Lanzas sinful act....

You've explained nothing. Effectively, the answer you've given is "I dunno. The Bible says God is good, but I don't know why." I see this as less than compelling.

 

[Lady B]

So then if a person is part of "the elect", then it doesn't matter how many children he kills - he's still going to Heaven. Right?


If this is true, then how can you be so sure that the good will be rewarded in Heaven and the evil will be punished in Hell? If you really don't know who is the elect and who isn't, then where's the comfort that you talked about earlier?

The comfort is in knowing That God is in control, not men. God says he will give justice, God says he has prepared a place for us too, Now I can assume some things based on a persons fruit, of course I can't be sure in their destination, nor can anyone. I can assume that Adam did not repent of his sins make a profession of faith to God in the time between killing the children and killing himself. But really I can't even know that either to any certainty. I also don't know how God deals with the mentally challenged and if he was truly culpable for this crime. I am comfortable to know that God does know, and He is perfect in his judgments.
There are just too many factors for you to expect me to have certainty in answering.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The comfort is in knowing That God is in control, not men.

How is that a comfort? Basically, that says that everything is unfolding according to the plan of a murderer. That wouldn't be a comfort to me.

God says he will give justice, God says he has prepared a place for us too, Now I can assume some things based on a persons fruit, of course I can't be sure in their destination, nor can anyone. I can assume that Adam did not repent of his sins make a profession of faith to God in the time between killing the children and killing himself. But really I can't even know that either to any certainty.

It would also be irrelevant if he couldn't bring about his salvation with his own works (e.g. professions of faith).

I also don't know how God deals with the mentally challenged and if he was truly culpable for this crime. I am comfortable to know that God does know, and He is perfect in his judgments.
There are just too many factors for you to expect me to have certainty in answering.

I don't think so. I think we're just getting down to the fundamental reasons for what you're arguing. The only thing I'm expecting from you is a deeper reason for your position than "I dunno, but the Bible says so."

 

[Lady B]

So God was in control when those children were killed? If so, then God isn't an accomplice; he's the perpetrator.


That's right: I can't accept logically contradictory things just because I read them.


What does this mean? I can take it two ways:

- killing children is evil, and when it happens it's not God's fault.
- killing children isn't evil when God does it.


You've explained nothing. Effectively, the answer you've given is "I dunno. The Bible says God is good, but I don't know why." I see this as less than compelling.

Ok as you like, I don't know, But what I don't know in my own understanding of scripture and my belief in one who does know does not make me less irrational than you who also don't know based on your undersatnding and your lack of belief in one who does know.

 

[Lady B]

How is that a comfort? Basically, that says that everything is unfolding according to the plan of a murderer. That wouldn't be a comfort to me.


It would also be irrelevant if he couldn't bring about his salvation with his own works (e.g. professions of faith).


I don't think so. I think we're just getting down to the fundamental reasons for what you're arguing. The only thing I'm expecting from you is a deeper reason for your position than "I dunno, but the Bible says so."

Your actually asking me what the Bible does not say, How can I give you this answers? really answering you on what scripture does not reveal to us is presumptious on behalf of God. all I can do is show you what scripture does say and base my understanding on his known attributes and the attributes of men. In some areas I admit I am not great at conveying such as pre-determination and free will,and God's exact role in his omnipotence. I am challenged though by your questions and I shall work on these particulars in the very near future.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your actually asking me what the Bible does not say, How can I give you this answers?

By thinking for yourself, and by thinking through your arguments before you make them.

If all you're going to do is tell me what the Bible says, then you're wasting your time. I've read the Bible. I know what it says; none of it was convincing for me.

All of my questions are just expressions of one fundamental one: why should I accept what you're telling me? Coming into this, I didn't accept your position on these issues, so if you want me to change my mind, you'll need to give me something I didn't have already... and I already had the Bible.

 

[Lady B]

How is that a comfort? Basically, that says that everything is unfolding according to the plan of a murderer. That wouldn't be a comfort to me.


It would also be irrelevant if he couldn't bring about his salvation with his own works (e.g. professions of faith).


I don't think so. I think we're just getting down to the fundamental reasons for what you're arguing. The only thing I'm expecting from you is a deeper reason for your position than "I dunno, but the Bible says so."

Making a profession to God or man about your faith is not a work,It can also be within his soul towards God and unseen. My point is only that while we can't know with absolute certainty what happens between God and man, God says we can know them by their fruits. If I use that, I could surmise this man was not the elect. However I must take care to do so since Christ did promise a condemned man a place in heaven, a man to all outward appearances was perhaps just as vile as Adam Lanza, yet while on the cross he had faith Christ was God's son and he knew he deserved his punishment. So go many deathbed confessions,so It takes away any certainty in knowing the elect really.

 

[Lady B]

By thinking for yourself, and by thinking through your arguments before you make them.

If all you're going to do is tell me what the Bible says, then you're wasting your time. I've read the Bible. I know what it says; none of it was convincing for me.

All of my questions are just expressions of one fundamental one: why should I accept what you're telling me? Coming into this, I didn't accept your position on these issues, so if you want me to change my mind, you'll need to give me something I didn't have already... and I already had the Bible.

I asked in my opening posts to discuss these issues that were in the other thread, I didn't say hey come here and let me change your mind, just so were clear here Of course I would like to answer all your questions, But perhaps some are impossible, I am going to give it my best shot though, I love a challenge, for now I need to tackle another issue and then sleep, will see you tomorrow, Peace.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is a fair assumption, As for me, I find no hope in life without purpose, I find no hope in this system of justice you have either.

Which one? I said nothing about Justice.

I would like to explore this more and try to understand your side. Lets put it into a courtroom scenario, one man takes anothers life, what to you would be justice?

Courtrooms have little to do with Justice. Justice can only be attained by developing at last a modicum of good will and moral integrity among most members of a community. And it is not a reactive or vengeful activity, but rather preventive and proactive in nature.

In essence, this world is not really just, but that is all the more reason for us to nurture love for fairness and good will. Even if it will not be "enough", that only means that its need is that much greater.