Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Lady B]

what makes you think the most high God is some kind of servant ?

may I ask who are you asking?:areyoucra

 

[cataway]

ok go ahead . answer if you can please

 

[horizon_mj1]

ok go ahead . answer if you can please

You have been asked who it is you are asking. Maybe if you answer this you can get an answer. I will however post my own response; Where is the proof that He is not; and I do not mean some book that has been written centuries ago with little tangibility to it. If you want someone to respond to you, you must at least give your own stance on the subject matter eh?

 

[Lady B]

Can't you see how this contradicts your earlier claim that everything is preordained by God?

Ok, This is where we get into a deeper Theology and I separate from an Armenian view.I believe you have said you understand the TULIP the 5 points of calvinism, right? So my beliefs are that because God has chosen his elect, who will come to him, he has pre-ordained the events that bring this about. Romans 9:15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Romans 9:21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"


I believe these verses among others let us know God has considered his creation his own as you would with anything that you have made ,right? Do you remember when you made a castle out of legos when you were a kid? And you smashed it all when you grew tired of it? Well Thank God for his mercy he doesn't just smash us all ! Thank God for his word he gave us, his promises in which he has bound himself that he will not destroy us or his creation again, as he did with the flood.Where you see evil, I see mercy and grace. Was God's intent that man sin? I am not sure in that, I know he planned for it, I know he planned for Christ to die before he even created earth, scripture does say this. I know that offends you and others, I would also be offended If I was outside of the grace of God. Maybe this is why we can't understand eachother? It is written God gives his own an understanding, those without ears will not hear.

Perhaps it is as The scriptures say, men with all knowledge without Christ cannot understand the things of God. Do not be angry at me please, I am not above you, But perhaps my peace comes from God's grace to me, and this is something you do not have right now.You are asking God's people to conform to your intellect and we can't. Though your intellect may be great in the eyes of men, it is just not compatible with God's grace and the mysteries within his word.oes this mean that we are brainless robots? No, those who study can give any answer to things that are written, I wish I can do so one day, but you who don't believe cannot see what is before you even you try, God must open up his word to you, as is written those without eyes cannot see...

You have a Good mind sir, I enjoy the complexity, and your questions are great, I love to discuss these things with you, even if I feel defeated when you cannot see, you help me to search for these answers also and that is always a good thing, But I would ask you to consider that you may never find the answer your mind needs. Some of us have peace without knowing every detail, we really do. We trust scripture, which brings us to another set of questions, we trust our creator which brings us to yet another set of questions. You see Christians as a blind stupid bunch of ignorant brainwashed puppets, with no real absolutes who put their entire lives hoping for a higher being.hmmmmm, we say the same for you, but your beliefs come from men and nothing more.

 

[Lady B]

ok go ahead . answer if you can please

who are you asking? please be direct and ask a poster what you need to ask, we all here have diferent answers to your question, so whos answer do you seek?

 

[Lady B]

Ok, This is where we get into a deeper Theology and I separate from an Armenian view.I believe you have said you understand the TULIP the 5 points of calvinism, right? So my beliefs are that because God has chosen his elect, who will come to him, he has pre-ordained the events that bring this about. Romans 9:15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Romans 9:21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"


I believe these verses among others let us know God has considered his creation his own as you would with anything that you have made ,right? Do you remember when you made a castle out of legos when you were a kid? And you smashed it all when you grew tired of it? Well Thank God for his mercy he doesn't just smash us all ! Thank God for his word he gave us, his promises in which he has bound himself that he will not destroy us or his creation again, as he did with the flood.Where you see evil, I see mercy and grace. Was God's intent that man sin? I am not sure in that, I know he planned for it, I know he planned for Christ to die before he even created earth, scripture does say this. I know that offends you and others, I would also be offended If I was outside of the grace of God. Maybe this is why we can't understand eachother? It is written God gives his own an understanding, those without ears will not hear.

Perhaps it is as The scriptures say, men with all knowledge without Christ cannot understand the things of God. Do not be angry at me please, I am not above you, But perhaps my peace comes from God's grace to me, and this is something you do not have right now.You are asking God's people to conform to your intellect and we can't. Though your intellect may be great in the eyes of men, it is just not compatible with God's grace and the mysteries within his word.oes this mean that we are brainless robots? No, those who study can give any answer to things that are written, I wish I can do so one day, but you who don't believe cannot see what is before you even you try, God must open up his word to you, as is written those without eyes cannot see...

You have a Good mind sir, I enjoy the complexity, and your questions are great, I love to discuss these things with you, even if I feel defeated when you cannot see, you help me to search for these answers also and that is always a good thing, But I would ask you to consider that you may never find the answer your mind needs. Some of us have peace without knowing every detail, we really do. We trust scripture, which brings us to another set of questions, we trust our creator which brings us to yet another set of questions. You see Christians as a blind stupid bunch of ignorant brainwashed puppets, with no real absolutes who put their entire lives hoping for a higher being.hmmmmm, we say the same for you, but your beliefs come from men and nothing more.

Btw that was responce to one post, I am still working my way through the rest,Lord help me.......

 

[Lady B]

Though most infant death is far removed from God's mind IMHO, some are to preserve faith in a faithless generation as the verse above indicates. No evil here just mercy and preservation of faith.

Massacres like Newtown are due to humans not Jehovah God. The evil is in Satan and his suggestions to weakened human minds.

Not sure if you are arguing my post, but I do not disagree with you entirely

 

[Lady B]

o.o.... wow are you serious?

You do know there are talking donkeys in the bible, right??? I mean don´t get me wrong, I am bananas enough to believe donkeys talking, but at least I know it is the most bananas position.

They have no found evidence to support your god or hell just like they have not found evidence to support Zeus and the Tartarus, or Thor and Neiflheim.

There is as much evidence of heaven as of the land of Oz.

and you seem completely unaware that your most popular argument comes from how you wish things were, not from what there is evidence for.

It´s like if I told you: If you hop three times nude in your backyard, tomorrow there wll b no world hunger.

Then you tell me "how do you know that?"

and I reply you "What do you mean how do I know that? what do you prefer? a world with world HUNGER?!! It is so arrogant of you not to hop three times naked in your backyard, and so arrogant of you to think that your unwilligness is more important than ending world hunger!"

I´d be insane (okay, I am a bit insane anyways ) to justify myself such, because simply because we would want something to be some way does not mean this is the way it is.

So when you say "Oh, but what do you prefer? that justice happens after death or that it doesn´?" it has 0 relevance to whether there is justice after death or not.

And hell is always unfair anyways. Infinite torture is about the one thing that cannot be morally okay from any remotely compassionate morality. Morality is about getting people to NOT suffer, not the other way around. and if you say that then we need hell to control people you would be wrong again: an infinite punishment is not necessary.

You would need to prove lower crime on countries were people believe in hell than on countries where people dont for that argument.

You have used pink unicorns, spaghetti kings, Darth Vador,hopping naked etc..Is that really your argument? Were any of these fictional characters or Ideals ever attributed with creation? By anyone? Anywhere? Do they have any historical ,theological support? Is that deep thinking really? Yet it is a common retort among atheists today here in the threads and the Dawkins rhetoric, IMO pink unicorn philosophy is not critical thinking by any standard and I reject it as a contender in useful debate skills.if that is all you have please do keep it,It is useless against any Bible believing persons and more so useless against any who actually study theology and rhetoric,philosophy and apoligetics.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, This is where we get into a deeper Theology and I separate from an Armenian view.I believe you have said you understand the TULIP the 5 points of calvinism, right? So my beliefs are that because God has chosen his elect, who will come to him, he has pre-ordained the events that bring this about. Romans 9:15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Romans 9:21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

So you think that God has only preordained the things that deal with human salvation, and hasn't preordained other things?

I believe these verses among others let us know God has considered his creation his own as you would with anything that you have made ,right?

Yes, that's the implication: that human beings have no innate value that would compel God to treat us with care. It's fundamentally anti-humanistic and IMO immoral and offensive, but I agree that this is consistent with Biblical teaching.

Do you remember when you made a castle out of legos when you were a kid? And you smashed it all when you grew tired of it? Well Thank God for his mercy he doesn't just smash us all ! Thank God for his word he gave us, his promises in which he has bound himself that he will not destroy us or his creation again, as he did with the flood.Where you see evil, I see mercy and grace.

It sounds like the sort of mercy and grace that children of an abusive parent experience on the nights when he doesn't beat them.

Was God's intent that man sin? I am not sure in that, I know he planned for it, I know he planned for Christ to die before he even created earth, scripture does say this.

So even if God didn't seek to create sin, he foresaw it and chose not to do anything to prevent it. Would you agree?

I know that offends you and others, I would also be offended If I was outside of the grace of God. Maybe this is why we can't understand eachother? It is written God gives his own an understanding, those without ears will not hear.

I'm not sure how being inside or outside "the grace of God" matters here. IMO, anyone with compassion would care about the fate of other people whether they're in "the grace of God" or not.

Perhaps it is as The scriptures say, men with all knowledge without Christ cannot understand the things of God.

What makes you think that I don't have knowledge of Christ?

Do not be angry at me please, I am not above you, But perhaps my peace comes from God's grace to me, and this is something you do not have right now.You are asking God's people to conform to your intellect and we can't. Though your intellect may be great in the eyes of men, it is just not compatible with God's grace and the mysteries within his word.

No, I'm just asking you to give me a valid reason to accept your position if you want me to accept it. "The Bible says so" is not a good reason. There are many books out there, many of which contradict your Bible, so if you want me to accept your book over all the others, you'll need to tell me how it - or the position in it - is different than all the rest.

And frankly, I don't see peace from you. You don't seem any more peaceful than many non-believers I know.

Does this mean that we are brainless robots? No, those who study can give any answer to things that are written, I wish I can do so one day, but you who don't believe cannot see what is before you even you try, God must open up his word to you, as is written those without eyes cannot see...

When you go around claiming that I need something other than reason, logic and evidence to be convinced of your position, I take this as an admission that you don't have good reasons for what you believe.

Maybe somewhere deep down you do have good reasons for them, but so far, you haven't given them. And what you've said sounds to me like an admission of failure on your part.

You have a Good mind sir, I enjoy the complexity, and your questions are great, I love to discuss these things with you, even if I feel defeated when you cannot see, you help me to search for these answers also and that is always a good thing, But I would ask you to consider that you may never find the answer your mind needs. Some of us have peace without knowing every detail, we really do.

So far, you haven't been able to give a straight answer to the question "is it right or wrong to kill children?" I wouldn't call this a "detail".

We trust scripture, which brings us to another set of questions, we trust our creator which brings us to yet another set of questions. You see Christians as a blind stupid bunch of ignorant brainwashed puppets, with no real absolutes who put their entire lives hoping for a higher being.hmmmmm, we say the same for you, but your beliefs come from men and nothing more.

No, I don't see Christians that way. Not in general, anyhow. It does frustrate me a bit that you seemingly can't answer what I see as pretty basic straightforward questions, though.

And if I'm right, your beliefs "come from men and nothing more" too, so from where I sit, we seem to be on the same footing in that department.

 

[Lady B]

So you think that God has only preordained the things that deal with human salvation, and hasn't preordained other things?


Yes, that's the implication: that human beings have no innate value that would compel God to treat us with care. It's fundamentally anti-humanistic and IMO immoral and offensive, but I agree that this is consistent with Biblical teaching.


It sounds like the sort of mercy and grace that children of an abusive parent experience on the nights when he doesn't beat them.

So even if God didn't seek to create sin, he foresaw it and chose not to do anything to prevent it. Would you agree?


I'm not sure how being inside or outside "the grace of God" matters here. IMO, anyone with compassion would care about the fate of other people whether they're in "the grace of God" or not.


What makes you think that I don't have knowledge of Christ?


No, I'm just asking you to give me a valid reason to accept your position if you want me to accept it. "The Bible says so" is not a good reason. There are many books out there, many of which contradict your Bible, so if you want me to accept your book over all the others, you'll need to tell me how it - or the position in it - is different than all the rest.

And frankly, I don't see peace from you. You don't seem any more peaceful than many non-believers I know.


When you go around claiming that I need something other than reason, logic and evidence to be convinced of your position, I take this as an admission that you don't have good reasons for what you believe.

Maybe somewhere deep down you do have good reasons for them, but so far, you haven't given them. And what you've said sounds to me like an admission of failure on your part.


So far, you haven't been able to give a straight answer to the question "is it right or wrong to kill children?" I wouldn't call this a "detail".


No, I don't see Christians that way. Not in general, anyhow. It does frustrate me a bit that you seemingly can't answer what I see as pretty basic straightforward questions, though.

And if I'm right, your beliefs "come from men and nothing more" too, so from where I sit, we seem to be on the same footing in that department.

So you really expect I can answer your question whether it is right or wrong to kill children? Seriously you need me to presuppose what God only knows? Of course I can't answer that from anything but a human perspective, why are you using this to debase the doctrines I hold to? Did God ever answer this in the scriptures that you have supposedly studied, so is that your excuse to not believe? What exactly is the straightforward question your asking me that I have not given answer to? Does God have the right to end life? Yes he does. Does God have the right to cause earthquakes, tornados and other disasters? Yes, does God have the right to give men over to their own wickedness? Yes, yes he does. Did God have the right to call those children home? yes, yes he did. God has this right as our creator to do as he so pleases, whether you hate it or not.

If you see my faith as failure in intellect from your own seemingly vast knowledge, so be it. I see your lack of faith the same.I believe the more knowledge a man has of the complexity of life the more he should realize his own fragility and how his every breath must be given as an act of mercy and not earned.

It takes more faith my friend to rely on circumstance than on a creator.as you rest each night, what keeps your heart beating and your blood from clotting, your lungs continuing to take in and out your supply of air.Chance? I believe it is God's grace to keep you alive even one more night, to allow you to wake and take joy where you may. Do you deserve it? Did you earn your breath? Did those children that died in this tragedy deserve to live more days? Can you tell me where you find your entitlement? Do you Atheists have some contract between you and science that we believers don't know about?

 

[Lady B]

So you think that God has only preordained the things that deal with human salvation, and hasn't preordained other things?


Yes, that's the implication: that human beings have no innate value that would compel God to treat us with care. It's fundamentally anti-humanistic and IMO immoral and offensive, but I agree that this is consistent with Biblical teaching.


It sounds like the sort of mercy and grace that children of an abusive parent experience on the nights when he doesn't beat them.


So even if God didn't seek to create sin, he foresaw it and chose not to do anything to prevent it. Would you agree?


I'm not sure how being inside or outside "the grace of God" matters here. IMO, anyone with compassion would care about the fate of other people whether they're in "the grace of God" or not.


What makes you think that I don't have knowledge of Christ?


No, I'm just asking you to give me a valid reason to accept your position if you want me to accept it. "The Bible says so" is not a good reason. There are many books out there, many of which contradict your Bible, so if you want me to accept your book over all the others, you'll need to tell me how it - or the position in it - is different than all the rest.

And frankly, I don't see peace from you. You don't seem any more peaceful than many non-believers I know.


When you go around claiming that I need something other than reason, logic and evidence to be convinced of your position, I take this as an admission that you don't have good reasons for what you believe.

Maybe somewhere deep down you do have good reasons for them, but so far, you haven't given them. And what you've said sounds to me like an admission of failure on your part.


So far, you haven't been able to give a straight answer to the question "is it right or wrong to kill children?" I wouldn't call this a "detail".


No, I don't see Christians that way. Not in general, anyhow. It does frustrate me a bit that you seemingly can't answer what I see as pretty basic straightforward questions, though.

And if I'm right, your beliefs "come from men and nothing more" too, so from where I sit, we seem to be on the same footing in that department.

By the way, I am happy you don't see us all as mindless idiots, and i also don't see you as such. I am not really answering you from a "Bible told me so" basis, but without using scripture which you don't believe anyway, I am doing my best here.

 

[LuisDantas]

So you really expect I can answer your question whether it is right or wrong to kill children? Seriously you need me to presuppose what God only knows? Of course I can't answer that from anything but a human perspective, why are you using this to debase the doctrines I hold to?

I'm not Penguim, but it stands to reason that people need no special privilege to tell whether it is wrong to kill children.

Do you believe most people struggle to answer that question without resorting to religion? Is there any particular reason why a human perspective would not be good enough?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

so you really expect I can answer your question whether it is right or wrong to kill children?

Yes. For most people, this is an easy question. The fact that you can't just come out and say that it's wrong to kill children is a big red flag for me about the inherent morality (or lack thereof) of the theology you're putting forward.

seriously you need me to presapose what God only knows? of course I can't answer that from anythig but a human perspective, why are you using this to debase the doctrines I hold to? did God ever answer this in the scriptures that you have saposedly studied, so is that your excuse to not believe? what exactly is the straightforward question your asking me that I have not given answer to? Does God have the right to end life? yes he does. Does God have the right to cause earthquakes, tornados and other disasters? yes, does God have the right to give men over to their own wickedness? yes, yes he does. God has this right as our creator to do as he so pleases, whether you hate it or not.I

So then humans have no value. This is the implication of what you're saying.

If you see my faith as failure to intelect from your own seemingly vast knowledge, so be it. I see your lack of faith the same.

If there's anything I've put forward that you disagree with, feel free to ask me to explain my position. I'll do my best to give you a better answer than "I read it in a book once." I would like it if you would extend the same courtesy to me.

I believe the more knowledge a man has of the complexity of life the more he should realize his own fragility and how his every breath must be given as an act of mercy and not earned.

I realize that life is fragile. I think that it's your position that rejects this and puts forward the idea that life will continue forever in a perfect afterlife.

It takes more faith my friend to rely on circumstance than on a creator.

How do you figure?

as you rest each night, what keeps your heart beating and your blood from clotting, your lungs continuing to take in and out your supply of air.Chance? I believe it is God's grace to keep you alive even one more night, to allow you to wake and take joy where you may. do you deserve it? did you earn your breath? did those children that died in this tragedy deserve to live more days? can you tell me where you find your entitlement? do you Atheists have some contract between you and science that we believers don't know about?

I don't get entitlement from anywhere. Personally, I consider entitlement to be a rather useless concept. But sure, I would have wanted those kids to live longer. I think the world would have been better if they hadn't have been killed.

Where do you find your entitlement? You preach a God who has no responsibility to see to your well-being at all. Do you see yourself as entitled to anything?

 

[Lady B]

I'm not Penguim, but it stands to reason that people need no special privilege to tell whether it is wrong to kill children.

Do you believe most people struggle to answer that question without resorting to religion? Is there any particular reason why a human perspective would not be good enough?

if he were asking me, of course it is wrong for Adam Lanza to kill these poor precious babies, It was wrong for the tragedies I have met with, and for all people.That is not the question here, He was asking if it is evil for God not me.

 

[LuisDantas]

if he were asking me, of course it is wrong for Adam Lanza to kill these poor precious babies, It was wrong for the tragedies I have met with, and for all people.That is not the question here, He was asking if it is evil for God not me.

And that is more of a challenge because...?

 

[Lady B]

Ok I have to sleep and be ready for my busy holliday schedule again tommorow, I will get to all the responses as I can through this busy time. I wish all of you a merry Christmas and good times with family and friends. Peace

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

if he were asking me, of course it is wrong for Adam Lanza to kill these poor precious babies, It was wrong for the tragedies I have met with, and for all people.That is not the question here, He was asking if it is evil for God not me.

No, I was asking if killing children is wrong, period. I didn't ask about who was doing the killing.

Regardless of who does it, dead children is either a good outcome or a bad outcome. I would like you to tell me whether you think it's good or bad.

 

[Lady B]

No, I was asking if killing children is wrong, period. I didn't ask about who was doing the killing.

Regardless of who does it, dead children is either a good outcome or a bad outcome. I would like you to tell me whether you think it's good or bad.

Ok one more reply before i go....
To me it is definitely wrong. I have also been a victim, it is wrong, I feel it is unfair that life ended in such tragedy. I myself have so much pain from this act of Adam Lanza.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok one more reply before i go....
To me it is definitely wrong. I have also been a victim, it is wrong, I feel it is unfair that life ended in such tragedy. I myself have so much pain from this act of Adam Lanza.

Okay. Thank you.

So if someone kills children - or causes children to be killed - it's wrong for them to do so?

 

[McBell]

Okay. Thank you.

So if someone kills children - or causes children to be killed - it's wrong for them to do so?

I know a lot of people that will say yes it is wrong to kill children or let them be killed then turn right around and say that it does not apply to god simply because god is god.