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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God assumed we'd use our COMMONSENSE to figger things out easily enough without him having to nanny us along every step of the way..:)
Even the disciples couldn't get to grips with some of the things Jesus told them, even when he put it into simple parable format-

Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them" (Matt 15:15/16)
God- "Don't eat the fruit of this tree."
Adam- "You mean this one that is pleasing to the eyes. And that aroma, Wow. Ummm, and it tastes good too. You mean that one?"
God- (Puts his hands on his forehead and shakes his head) "I assumed you'd use a little commonsense and believe me when I tell things. I guess I assumped wrong."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I see. So what is true depends on what you like. I knew that going in, but only rarely get the other to admit it. I defend Christianity so what you like about Hinduism's incoherent doctrines are not really on my radar. Would you want to have to go back through this mess over and over? I wouldn't. Re-incarnation is one of the most irrational ideas any faith has produced. I do find the studies about it interesting but not even a fraction the size of a data set needed to take it seriously.

No Hinduism does not make sense to me. It is one of the belief systems I can't believe any sane person could hang on to. I imagine that unlike Christianity it is so culturally centered.
Okay, so then where did Hinduism come from? Where did their ideas about morality come from? From people? Okay, I can see that. People made up some spiritual things that related to their culture. Reincarnation sounded reasonable to them and explained why things are as they are. But there's some "coherency" problems.

But, do you really believe there are no incoherent doctrines in Christianity? This thread attests to one of the biggest problems with Christianity. God has the power to stop evil, and one day will, but for now, he allows it? He drowned everybody but Noah's family? For what? Evil still exists, so why did he kill all those people? Even Noah should have been killed, since the world just filled up with his evil descendants. Supposedly, because of some "inherited" sin? I wonder, if none of us are "perfect" enough on our own, and without Jesus none of us are going to make it, but then he already knows who will accept Jesus, why did he make the rest of us? And that salvation loophole? Your "age of accountability" thing? That is a totally Christian made up doctrine, and so is your morally depraved doctrine also. It is your attempt at bringing some "coherency" to your beliefs. But what do you believe? The Bible?

I would really doubt if you use or even believe in all of "Scripture". Most Christians, it seems, leave out most of the Hebrew part of it. Why? Isn't it because it is irrelevant? Or, could you say, some of it is "incoherent" with your Christian beliefs? How much of it do you really use? I know you'll probably say you believe it is all, but I really doubt it. I doubt you follow "God's" Law and the Sabbath commandment. And why is that? God didn't change his mind on what's important to him did he? Did he stop requiring animal sacrifices for atonement? Did he ever really accept them? Or he only wanted it for a short time to establish the idea of needing blood to atone for sin? Really, where is the "coherency" in Christianity?

Christians scour the Hebrew Scriptures to find verses to make their story make sense, it still doesn't. Why? Because, I believe Judaism is a totally different and separate religion. You claim it is part of Christianity, and that it is all part of the same plan, but that not necessarily so. Look at what you've done to Judaism. You've done to Judaism exactly what Islam and the Baha'i Faith does to you. They say they came from you, but they have changed everything. They've made your beliefs irrelevant. And just like what you have done to Judaism, they found things in the Bible that makes their story sound true. Just like you, they make verses literal when they needed them to be literal. And they make them symbolic what when they need them to be symbolic.

But I can't believe you don't like the possibility of reincarnation. What's so wrong with it? One shot at life? No, I wouldn't mind several chances. What is so "incoherent" about that? I don't know about you, but a lot of things in this life have been great. I wouldn't mind coming back doing it all over again. But I know, what about all the people born into horrible situations? Well yeah, wouldn't it be a nice gesture of God to reward them with a another life... but under better circumstances? Besides, what are you going to do in heaven for eternity? Praise God day and night? Will there even be days and nights? Really? What are you going to be doing? Why not let God send you back into another physical body. Maybe you could come back as a Hindu in rural India? Wouldn't that be fun?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
...if you admit that you are blind/a sinner God will forgive you and guilty of sin no more, but if you say that you can see/not a sinner or not admitting as a sinner, you guilt as a sinner remains.
So before, Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for the sins of the world, a person could admit to God that he was a sinner and be forgiven? Naturally, since he was only human, he would continue sinning, but God would still forgive him, because he admitted he was a blind sinner? Or no?

After Jesus, of course, you couldn't just admit it to God that you are a blind sinner and expect to be forgiven, correct? Because you'd have to give your life to Jesus and admit it you're a blind sinner, right? But, since Jesus is God, then could you just admit it to God and that would include Jesus also, because God is one? Or, do you have to admit it to all three parts of the one God? Or, just to Jesus and that would include the other two parts? You see, I beginning to see how confusing your beliefs really are. But, you know what, I admit that I'm a blind sinner, so am I saved or just forgiven, or both?

I got a feeling there's more. Like make Jesus Lord of my life. But he knows, since I'm only human, I'll continue to sin, right? And he's okay with that? I guess he is, because I'm sure you continue to sin, and you're saved and forgiven and all that good stuff.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Its been good talking to you.Have a nice day:)

Sure. You, too. :)

There is much to be admired and respected in it, from what I read there.

Thanks. :) It's a highly individual path, as anything on the Left Hand Path is, but Luciferians in general tend to agree with the principles laid out there. You could say that I'm a Satanist, too, but I prefer not to call myself that at this point because it's too restrictive a term. Also, Satanism tends to attract certain types of people that I don't want to be associated with.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not anymore of course. Consider or read your statement and you should see the answer yourself. After Adam made a mistake he/Adam is no longer perfect, but before this very first mistake, the mother of all the mistakes us human [excluding you of course ‘cause you said that you came from apes] inherited, Adam was in perfect state.

People in this thread were/are relentlessly arguing that babies were born sinless or IOW, “PERFECT”. Now, if babies were born “PERFECT” I.E., without a sin, then how did they turned from being perfect into being imperfect if you claim that,


You and the other guy agreed with each other that “perfect doesn’t not turn imperfect”, but when it comes to babies being born “sinless/perfect” your arguments [“perfect doesn’t not turn imperfect”] are falling apart.

So, tell me now, do babies born perfect/sinless or imperfect/sinners?
Remember my analogy, about a million posts ago, about a teenager that just got their driver's license? They are definitely imperfect drivers. Nobody is a "perfect" driver. Some people probably go their whole life without a ticket. It is possible that somebody has even managed to never break a traffic law, in spite of being "imperfect". But, that teenager, has a clean slate. That teenager might go for days without breaking the traffic code.

That teenager didn't inherit an "evil" inclination to run stop signs and speed did they? If taken to traffic court, they wouldn't be guilty of any infractions would they?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
...But I am curious. Do you think that a new born child is a sinner? What about a human embryo? What kind of sin would you accuse them of?

Ciao

- viole
That is classic. But I'm sure they have an answer. Since Jesus came out of a woman, the inherited evil must be carried in the sperm. Once it joins with the egg, the embryo is polluted with sin. No way can the soul... wait the soul? I get confused. I wonder what is the spiritual part of a person, soul or spirit? Anyway, one of them must be pure, shouldn't it? But then at some point the pure spirit, the eternal part of a person, is joined to that tainted physical part.

If that evil embryo dies before the age of accountability, the spirit goes straight back to heaven to be with Jesus, even though it was joined together with that tainted body. If, however, that physical bunch of walking, talking cells gets to old, and gets to the point where it is now responsible for either believing or rejecting Jesus, then that pure spirit goes to hell because of the inherited sin of the physical body? Hmmm? Makes all kinds of sense. I guess? Or, was the spirit given to an embryo also tainted?

Hmmm? It would have to be. Something perfect, like a pure spirit from God, couldn't become imperfect. Because if it was somehow perfect, it definitely shouldn't be held responsible for the failures of an imperfect body. So, I wonder what they'll say? Is the spirit put into that human embryo perfect or imperfect? I can't wait to hear their response. Hey, keep up the great questions. You stimulate my "tainted" brain cells into thinking far beyond the Christian sealed and closed off box.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
From where did you hear that gossip? Deductive reasoning cannot agree with your premise, because the reason why people die, I.E. DEATH, is because of this inherited “SIN” from Adam. Please read and understand Romans 5:12
So a couple of small problems. Is Paul perfect? Is everything that Paul said the infallible word of God? Did men decide to make this letter of Paul's the Word of God? Before that first "sin", all the cells in Adam were designed to live forever? Did he feel pain? Could his body get cuts and scratches? How about his hair? Could it be cut? Or, his finger nails? Were his finger nails alive? And about death, why did death also affect the animals? Were they also "eternal". Were they going to make baby animals, even though, they weren't going to die? At some point, were they going to stop making babies, because there would be no more room for eternal animals? Just wondering.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
This dialogue between Jesus and Martha is interesting and shows he was the son of God, and NOT God-
Jesus said -"Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?
She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God" (John 11:26/27)


Likewise, this dialog is also interesting-
"He asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" (Matt 16:13-17)


See, if Jesus was God, he would have corrected them both by saying- "No you're wrong, I'm not the son of God, I AM God"..:)
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
polytheism |ˈpäliTHēˌizəm| noun
the belief in or worship of more than one god.

Speaking of paganism, can you explain this verse please?

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
We are not classified as ^$*#)@*& stinking apes. As Mr. Hesston would put it. Even those who seek to bind nature by terminology don't classify us that way. BTW what a guy in lab coat classifies something as has no impact on it whatever. If I have 37 degrees would my classifying the Swedish a radishes change anything about anything?

Humans, together with chimps, gorillas and orang-utans are classified as great apes, at least according to the modern terminology.

We have more or similar amounts in common (I think) with vegetables. Someone said we are 2% or 4% different in chromosomes from apes, but "Oh that two percent". "

Probably there are fishes that have a couple percent genetic difference from other fishes. They are all still classified as fishes, nevertheless.

But if that hurts your anthropocentrism we can settle for primates. OK? Or do you prefer to go a step further and settle for mammals?

I hope you agree that we are mammals, at least.

In it you have sonnets, rockets, pacemakers, ballad's, philosophy, self awareness, moral consciousness, theology, and the Mona Lisa". There has never been a fraction of the intellectual difference between two things supposedly so closely related as us and primates. Something drastic occurred that nature can't explain.

What does the ability to do theology and the rest has to do with biological classification? And if you agree, I hope, that we are at least mammals, then it is obvious that your argument is a non sequitur. Some mammals (humans) can write sonnets while others (rats) can't. That does not entail that we are not both mammals.

Something drastic occurred. Yes, we have a bigger brain which evolved a certain wiring. Homo Erectus and Neanderthals were not too bad either. We made the step from being adapted to being adaptable, which provides obvious evolutionary advantages in changing environments. I don't see why nature cannot explain that.

Incidentally, the trade off between big brains and birth mechanics has forced us to be intellectually immature after birth, when compared with other mammals. That is, we need care and attention for a long time after birth if we do not want to be eaten immediately. This leads to the natural selection of parents that have a steady relationship and to the natural selection of brain wiring that computes things like romantic love.

"Until death sets us apart" is an evolutionary adaptation that facilitates the spread of our genes.

Ciao

- viole
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
They don't believe that The Lord Jesus Christ is God.

And you do, I assume. If you do, may I ask if you carry around or expose images of the Lord Jesus, aka images of God?

Ciao

- viole
 
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JM2C

CHRISTIAN
So to be "saved" you have to believe Jesus is God? Where does it say that in the Bible?
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God is calling His Son as God. How can you argue from this verse?
 

Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God is calling His Son as God. How can you argue from this verse?
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Okay, so then where did Hinduism come from? Where did their ideas about morality come from? From people? Okay, I can see that. People made up some spiritual things that related to their culture. Reincarnation sounded reasonable to them and explained why things are as they are. But there's some "coherency" problems.
The bible says that all men have a God given moral conscience, and all men violate it. This explains why everyone has similar ideas about what is good and evil, but why they differ in key areas at times. So a Hindu has a God given conscience which he incorporates into a false religion. He does so in a flawed manner so you get similarities and some exceptions. The apostle of common sense, the great G. K. Chesterton said "Most men can agree on what is wrong, they just differ on what wrongs to excuse". For example the morally unjustified taking of life exists in almost every culture as a wrong but what is moral justification differs quite a bit.

But, do you really believe there are no incoherent doctrines in Christianity? This thread attests to one of the biggest problems with Christianity. God has the power to stop evil, and one day will, but for now, he allows it? He drowned everybody but Noah's family? For what? Evil still exists, so why did he kill all those people? Even Noah should have been killed, since the world just filled up with his evil descendants. Supposedly, because of some "inherited" sin? I wonder, if none of us are "perfect" enough on our own, and without Jesus none of us are going to make it, but then he already knows who will accept Jesus, why did he make the rest of us? And that salvation loophole? Your "age of accountability" thing? That is a totally Christian made up doctrine, and so is your morally depraved doctrine also. It is your attempt at bringing some "coherency" to your beliefs. But what do you believe? The Bible?
You ask more question per paragraph than anyone.

1. I believe they are all coherent but not all are intuitive to finite beings, nor should they be.
2. Evil is a necessary potentiality of freewill. You can't have freewill without wrong choices.
3. It was the pervasive level of evil that caused either a literal flood or an analogy with one.

New International Version
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

4. That level of evil does not exist currently but we are heading that direction. The bible says when we get there that is it. Christ comes back and wipes out evil for the last time (depending on interpretations about millennialism). If you have traveled abroad you would know evil can take over a population.

5. Noah's descendants did not have that same level of evil. Evil can consume good and would have if not for the flood and if not in modern times for the US in WW2.

6. Knowing you will chose wrong has no effect on your choice. He gave you a choice without compulsion. His knowing what you will chose does not change that. He gave life, if used to reject it's author, that life is taken back. Where is the injustice?

7. I don't get "loop hole"

8. There is no justice in the age of accountability. The last two are not even questions.

9. It is Christian it is not made up by any human.

10. I know Christ, I believe much of the bible by reason and evidence, I accept the rest of faith.

If God acted any differently in any of your quasi-questions he would not be God or just. One paragraph ten questions, amazing.





I would really doubt if you use or even believe in all of "Scripture". Most Christians, it seems, leave out most of the Hebrew part of it. Why? Isn't it because it is irrelevant? Or, could you say, some of it is "incoherent" with your Christian beliefs? How much of it do you really use? I know you'll probably say you believe it is all, but I really doubt it. I doubt you follow "God's" Law and the Sabbath commandment. And why is that? God didn't change his mind on what's important to him did he? Did he stop requiring animal sacrifices for atonement? Did he ever really accept them? Or he only wanted it for a short time to establish the idea of needing blood to atone for sin? Really, where is the "coherency" in Christianity?

1. I have levels of certainty and understanding for each verse. From 100% to less than 10%.
2. I did not leave out any Hebrew part of anything.
3. It is all relevant to faith.
4. Some of it on the surface challenges other parts but with only slight study the challenges usually evaporate.
5. I have no idea how much I really use. I imperfectly use quite a bit.
6. No OT law has applied in the same way in 2000 years.

New International Version
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

The man who said that knew more about the law than the rest of the apostles put together.

We no longer live in a covenant based on law. We live in a covenant based on grace. The laws did not change but our relationship to them has. It would take a book to explain this and with 10 questions per paragraph I can't do so here.

7. Of course he stopped with the animals which never took away sin. The OT contains types and shadows of things that came to pass in the new. The perfect rams and doves only pushed sin forward until the true lamb of God came and washed away sin for good. Your suggesting I do exactly what Christ and the apostles said I am not to do. Now that I have the real thing I am not to go back to the symbolic things. You should understand that which you condemn before you risk your soul in the conclusion. This is Christianity 101 stuff.

8. He provisionally accepted animals until the true sacrifice came along. If you would read about it you will find the animals pushed sin forward and had to do so every year until Christ came. He was the true sacrifice and once completed did not have to be repeated.

9. I have seen no incoherency yet. Is that coming at some point.





Christians scour the Hebrew Scriptures to find verses to make their story make sense, it still doesn't. Why? Because, I believe Judaism is a totally different and separate religion. You claim it is part of Christianity, and that it is all part of the same plan, but that not necessarily so. Look at what you've done to Judaism. You've done to Judaism exactly what Islam and the Baha'i Faith does to you. They say they came from you, but they have changed everything. They've made your beliefs irrelevant. And just like what you have done to Judaism, they found things in the Bible that makes their story sound true. Just like you, they make verses literal when they needed them to be literal. And they make them symbolic what when they need them to be symbolic.

1. It makes so much sense that in spite of their extraordinary claims they have convinced 1/3 of the human race, have conquered empires set on their destruction without drawing a sword, and exploded on the scene in a nation hostile to it, in an empire who sought to eradicate it. It has convinced countless numbers of the greatest intellects in history and is the most scrutinized subject in history.
2. Judaism is a different covenant but the same religion.
3. The rest of that above doe snot make any sense. I think you made some typing mistakes or something.

But I can't believe you don't like the possibility of reincarnation. What's so wrong with it? One shot at life? No, I wouldn't mind several chances. What is so "incoherent" about that? I don't know about you, but a lot of things in this life have been great. I wouldn't mind coming back doing it all over again. But I know, what about all the people born into horrible situations? Well yeah, wouldn't it be a nice gesture of God to reward them with a another life... but under better circumstances? Besides, what are you going to do in heaven for eternity? Praise God day and night? Will there even be days and nights? Really? What are you going to be doing? Why not let God send you back into another physical body. Maybe you could come back as a Hindu in rural India? Wouldn't that be fun?

1. I think re-incarnation is one of the dumbest ideas in theology and that is saying something. It has so many incoherent features I am loath to start listing them.
2. What is wrong with it is another issue from what I don't like about it. Only your side combines the two. Besides what I don't like is not really debatable or relevant.
3. What you like is the same as no 2. above.
4. I really can't find any reason to haggle over re-incarnation. I will just add one anecdote. When the protégées missionaries arrived in India, they were somewhat brutal in their efforts to convert. What surprised everyone was that hordes of Hindus leaped into their arms anyway. Because even if they did not practice it perfectly the idea of human equality was a doctrine in Christianity but was absent in Hinduism. Hinduism stuck people in castes and for the lower rungs there was no way out. You want a real critique of Hinduism and oriental philosophy see Ravi Zacharias or Dinesh D'Souza.
5. For a person who has spent a few fleeting hours in just the foretaste of the kind of peace and contentment that God offers I would be happy to only have that for eternity but doctrine states I have only felt the tip of the ice burg. I have no words that can convey it so won't attempt to.
6. It is not really in my power to dictate what God does so the rest of that is kind of silly. This is not up to us thank God.
 
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