Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[CG Didymus]

Are you confused?

Is that your answer? Never mind. Keep believing whatever you want.

 

[Ingledsva]

Please read and understand. Understand means you don’t have to believe my arguments, but if you understand it first then you can argue base on your understanding.

IOW, you cannot argue what you cannot understand. So, you have to understand it first, and believe me, I don’t expect you to believe my arguments.

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” - Mt 16:27

“looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” - Tit 2:13

“And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature” - HEB 1:3

“These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him” - Jn 12:41

John now claims that Isaiah saw The Lord Jesus Christ and spoke of him. IOW, he identified The Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord of the OT in Isaiah chapter 6.

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. - Isa 6:1

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. - Isa 6:5

And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me. - Isa 6:8

Just try to understand this, “who will go for Us?”

And compare that to this,

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation, but in the original Hebrew it is very clear that trinity existed already in the O.T. long before the N.T.;

"Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah" -Deuteronomy 6:4.

NOTE: “ONE Jehovah” Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

This “ONE Jehovah” Echad: a united ONE is:

“in the glory of his Father with his angels” - Mt 16:27,

“the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” - Tit 2:13

“who will go for Us?” - Isa 6:8

There is only one conclusion here, and that is, The Lord Jesus Christ is God and not an “a god” but ONE with God the Father and the Holy Spirit or “ONE Jehovah” a united ONE “Echad” or The Trinity.

You don’t have to believe this but just try to understand it.

Baloney, we have covered many of these verses, in context, and they do not mean Jesus is God in trinity form.


Jesus is claiming to be the Jewish Messiah sent from God.


That Messiah is a special human, not a God.


Jesus says nothing about a trinity. Later Christians make this up.


Ask a Jew about the meaning of ONE when talking about THEIR God.



*

 

[viole]

Well since Nietzsche said philosophers and poets killed God in the 19th century, and Dawkins and his ilk have said science has disproven God in the 20th century. It sure is animated for a twice killed corpse.

We make up 1 out of 3 people on earth. It is not dead, it is not stagnant, it is not even slowing down. You better get a whole lot of nails for the next coffin used to attempt to bury it.

My point was it was not dead but actually growing. How good - is how fast is relative and not really meaningful outside that context.

Well, in percentage it must be going down. 2.7 millions (Nevada) new Christians per year is much smaller than about 80 millions more people on earth every year.

I really have no opinion on that issue so I doubt I agreed to what you claim I did. I do not even remember the question being asked. My only position is that naturalism alone can't explain genetic reality. Whether my greatest grandfather was a alligator gar or not is not really in the realm where I give a (a word meaning of no value).

Of course, the position that naturalism cannot explain genetic reality is very unscientific. Only a a-priori committment to some invisible spiritual relity can justify that.

Science does not agree with you. Actually, they already explained a lot of our genetic reality and origin. For instance, we know how new information is created and added completely naturalistically. But there is still work ahead. Next stop: abiogenesis.

I can't believe your asking me that. It is what separates technological development and classical science from modern science. I am cringing from expecting a never ending semantic debate so let me change terms real quick to avoid it. The term's only use as used was to separate modern science by a label so lets drop the label and just use modern science. The stuff that Galilei, Da Vinci, Faraday, Newton, Einstein, Kepler, Pascal, Copernicus, Descartes, Bacon, Maxwell, Leibniz, Bayes, Lavoisier, Laplace, Ampere, etc..... created or advanced. The enlightenment era stuff when most fields of science were laid out formally.

Of course I asked, for there is not such a thing as abstract science. It is actually an oxymoron that you probbly just made up. Just call it modern science so we know what you mean.

By the way, you forgot Darwin and Wallace.

Sure , they were all Christians. But this is obvious since everybody was Christian at that time (with the possible exception of Einstein era, who was not Christian). And since they all came from Europe, they were all white too and most of them wearing funny wigs. That would not entail, of course, that things like white supremacists should not feel threatened by scientific studies that go against their ideas, just because science has been laid out by white people. They should feel threatened, and theists should too.

Today, we have much different picture. The scientific and technological explosion of the 20th century has no precedents in the history of humanity. That is really a quantum leap. And where are scientists today? Much higher percentage of atheism than the average population. I think the reason is that the most recent discoveries of science entail that God does not exist, or is, at best, totally irrelevant as explantory power. Un uninvited guest.

Ciao

- viole

 

[JM2C]

Baloney, we have covered many of these verses, in context, and they do not mean Jesus is God in trinity form.

Baloney? My arguments got more real MEAT than yours.

 

[JM2C]

Ask a Jew about the meaning of ONE when talking about THEIR God.

This is what I’ve been telling you. Read and understand so you could argue from knowledge and not from fear of understanding the truth which is ignorance. Please take note that the word ignorance is not an insult but just lack of knowledge.

You could ask any religious Semitic Jews the meaning of this. Was it changed from “Echad” to “Yachid” or the other way around?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation, but in the original Hebrew it is very clear that trinity existed already in the O.T. long before the N.T.;

"Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah".

NOTE: “ONE Jehovah” Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

 

[Ingledsva]

Baloney? My arguments got more real MEAT than yours.

Baloney again!


Not a single verse that you put up as proof - is actual proof.


They do not say Jesus is God, or a trinity.


There is no trinity idea in the Bible.


The Jewish messiah that he was claiming to be - was a human.


*

 

[CG Didymus]

Baloney? My arguments got more real MEAT than yours.

She's like top sirloin. You? Maybe spam? No, that's mean. You"re at least like bacon. No, that's mean too. But to me she's a prime cut. She's knows her stuff.

 

[Ingledsva]

This is what I’ve been telling you. Read and understand so you could argue from knowledge and not from fear of understanding the truth which is ignorance. Please take note that the word ignorance is not an insult but just lack of knowledge.

You could ask any religious Semitic Jews the meaning of this. Was it changed from “Echad” to “Yachid” or the other way around?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation, but in the original Hebrew it is very clear that trinity existed already in the O.T. long before the N.T.;

"Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah".

NOTE: “ONE Jehovah” Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

Baloney. You are a Christian trying to read your trinity ideas into Tanakh.


The Jews will tell you this is BULL!


Echad also means one, and only.


I have a different understanding here, from the way YHVH and Elohiym are often put together.


YHVH Elohiym means YHVH of the Elohiym.


We read I am YHVH - YOUR - Elohiym. Distinguishing himself from foreign Gods.


Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel, YAHWEH our Elohiym is YAHWEH echad only/alone.


No multiple YHVH here.


As is also shown by hundreds of years of their writings on their YHVH, whom is ONE.

*

 

[CG Didymus]

This is what I’ve been telling you. Read and understand so you could argue from knowledge and not from fear of understanding the truth which is ignorance. Please take note that the word ignorance is not an insult but just lack of knowledge.

You could ask any religious Semitic Jews the meaning of this. Was it changed from “Echad” to “Yachid” or the other way around?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation, but in the original Hebrew it is very clear that trinity existed already in the O.T. long before the N.T.;

"Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah".

NOTE: “ONE Jehovah” Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

I found an article called: [FONT=&quot]"Echad, Yachid, and the Oneness of God" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by Jason Dulle. Here's an excerpt:[/FONT]

Echad is used nearly 1000 times in the OT, and almost always refers to a single numerical entity. There are times when it is used of a composite entity (Genesis 2:24). It functions just like the English word “one,” which can be used of single or composite entities, although it most often refers to a single, solitary thing. Only the context can determine how echad is being used. Given the rarity with which echad is used to refer to a composite entity, we should understand echad as referring to a single entity unless there are good contextual clues that warrant the uncommon meaning.
…The question, then, comes down to context. Is there anything in the context of Deuteronomy 6:4 – or any other passage of Scripture in which God is described as being echad – that requires the meaning of composite unity? Meaning is not determined by a words semantical domain, but by the context. To demonstrate that echad means a composite entity with reference to God, the context must make it clear that this is the meaning intended by the author. For example, in Genesis 2:24 man and woman are described as being “echad flesh.” It is physically impossible for man and woman to be considered a single physical entity, so the author must mean “one” in the sense of a composite entity. Are there similar contextual clues that make it clear that echad is being used in this way in Deuteronomy 6:4? No. Indeed, given how God’s oneness is described in passages like Isaiah 42:8 and 44:24, we have very good grounds for understanding the nature of God’s oneness to be that of a numerically single entity.
The Jews read passages such as Deuteronomy 6:4 for 1500 years and always understood them to mean YHWH was a single entity. They never understood YHWH's oneness in a composite sense because there was no contextual warrant for doing so…
As for yachid, I dispute the claim that it only refers to a strict numerical identity…An examination of the contexts in which it is used reveals two things: (1) It does not refer only to a single entity; (2) It would not be appropriate to describe God using this term.
Yachid is usually used to refer to an only child …The word is never used as a general term for “one.” Its meaning is more akin to “unique” or “only.” … While God could have been described using yachid, it would not necessarily tell us how many gods there are, but rather what kind of God YHWH is: a unique God. If we want to know how many gods there are, the most appropriate word is echad.

You got any more baloney?

 

[JM2C]

She's like top sirloin. You? Maybe spam? No, that's mean. You"re at least like bacon. No, that's mean too. But to me she's a prime cut. She's knows her stuff.

How about Angus Rib-eye steak, they melt in your mouth, but they cost like 30USD/lb.

 

[JM2C]

I found an article called: "Echad, Yachid, and the Oneness of God" by Jason Dulle. Here's an excerpt:

You got any more baloney?

Don’t eat fake meat.
Here’s some more Angus Rib-eye cut beef for you to understand.

The question remains the same. Why change the “Echad” to “Yachid” in Dt 6:4?

JEWISH MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE DOCTRINE

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity has been generally misunderstood among the Jewish people, with the result that they believe we worship three Gods. To set forth this idea and the reason for its strong hold on the Jewish people to-day we propose to quote rather extensively from the writings of one who is in a position to understand the problem, - from the writings of Ex-Rabbi Leopold Cohn. Says he:

"The reason that the Jews have become estranged from the doctrine of the Triune God is found in the teachings of Moses Maimonides. He compiled thirteen articles of faith which the Jews accepted and incorporated into their liturgy. One of them is 'I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one' (Hebrew, 'Yachid') . This has been repeated daily by Jews in their prayers, ever since the twelfth century, when Moses Maimonides lived. This expression of an 'absolute one' is diametrically opposed to the word of God which teaches with great emphasis that God is not a 'Yachid,' which means an only one, or an 'absolute one,' but 'Echad,' which means a united one. In Deuteronomy 6:4 God laid down for His people a principle of faith, which is certainly superior to that of Moses Maimonides, inasmuch as it comes from God Himself. We read, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE,' stressing the sense of the phrase 'one' by using not 'yachid,' which Moses Maimanides does, but ' Echad,' which means a united one.

"We want now to trace where these two words, 'yachid' and ' Echad,' occur in the Old Testament and in what connection and sense they are used, and thus ascertain their true meaning.

"In Genesis I we read, 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' Here the word ' Echad ' is used, which implies that the evening and the morning - two separate objects - are called one, thus showing plainly that the word ' Echad ' does not mean an 'absolute one,' but a united one. Then in Genesis 2:24 we read, 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.' Here too the word ' Echad ' is used, furnishing another proof that it means a united one, referring, as it does in this case, to two separate persons.

"Now let us see in the Word of God where that expression 'yachid,' an 'absolute one,' is found. In Genesis 22:2 God says to Abraham, 'Take now thy son, thine only son.' Here we read the word 'yachid.' The same identical word, 'yachid,' is repeated in the 12th verse of the same chapter. In Psalm 25:16 it is again applied to a single person as also in Jeremiah 6:26, where we read, 'Make thee mourning as for an only son.' The same word, conveying the sense of one only, occurs in Zechariah 12:10, 'And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son.'

"Thus we see that Moses Maimonides, with all his great wisdom and much learning, made a serious mistake in prescribing for the Jews that confession of faith in which it is stated that God is a 'yachid,' a statement which is absolutely opposed to the Word of God. And the Jews, in blindly following the so-called 'second Moses' have once more given evidence of their old proclivities of perverting the Word of the living God. The Holy Spirit made that serious complaint against them through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, 'For ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God' (Jer. 23:36).

"This is therefore the belief of the true Christian. He does not have three gods, but 'one,' a Scriptural one, which is in Hebrew 'Echad,' and which consists of three personal revelations of God as we shall see in the following Scriptures.

"In the very first verse of the Bible we find two, manifestations of the Godhead. 'In the beginning God created . . , and the Spirit of God moved.' Here we see plainly that God taught us to believe that He is the creator of all things and that His Spirit is moving upon this world of ours to lead, guide and instruct us in the way He wants us to walk. So here in the first chapter of the Bible are two manifestations of God. - Loraine Boettner

 

[CG Didymus]

Don’t eat fake meat.
Here’s some more Angus Rib-eye cut beef for you to understand.

The question remains the same. Why change the “Echad” to “Yachid” in Dt 6:4?

JEWISH MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE DOCTRINE

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity has been generally misunderstood among the Jewish people, with the result that they believe we worship three Gods. To set forth this idea and the reason for its strong hold on the Jewish people to-day we propose to quote rather extensively from the writings of one who is in a position to understand the problem, - from the writings of Ex-Rabbi Leopold Cohn. Says he:

"The reason that the Jews have become estranged from the doctrine of the Triune God is found in the teachings of Moses Maimonides. He compiled thirteen articles of faith which the Jews accepted and incorporated into their liturgy. One of them is 'I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one' (Hebrew, 'Yachid') . This has been repeated daily by Jews in their prayers, ever since the twelfth century, when Moses Maimonides lived. This expression of an 'absolute one' is diametrically opposed to the word of God which teaches with great emphasis that God is not a 'Yachid,' which means an only one, or an 'absolute one,' but 'Echad,' which means a united one. In Deuteronomy 6:4 God laid down for His people a principle of faith, which is certainly superior to that of Moses Maimonides, inasmuch as it comes from God Himself. We read, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE,' stressing the sense of the phrase 'one' by using not 'yachid,' which Moses Maimanides does, but ' Echad,' which means a united one.

"We want now to trace where these two words, 'yachid' and ' Echad,' occur in the Old Testament and in what connection and sense they are used, and thus ascertain their true meaning.

"In Genesis I we read, 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' Here the word ' Echad ' is used, which implies that the evening and the morning - two separate objects - are called one, thus showing plainly that the word ' Echad ' does not mean an 'absolute one,' but a united one. Then in Genesis 2:24 we read, 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.' Here too the word ' Echad ' is used, furnishing another proof that it means a united one, referring, as it does in this case, to two separate persons.

"Now let us see in the Word of God where that expression 'yachid,' an 'absolute one,' is found. In Genesis 22:2 God says to Abraham, 'Take now thy son, thine only son.' Here we read the word 'yachid.' The same identical word, 'yachid,' is repeated in the 12th verse of the same chapter. In Psalm 25:16 it is again applied to a single person as also in Jeremiah 6:26, where we read, 'Make thee mourning as for an only son.' The same word, conveying the sense of one only, occurs in Zechariah 12:10, 'And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son.'

"Thus we see that Moses Maimonides, with all his great wisdom and much learning, made a serious mistake in prescribing for the Jews that confession of faith in which it is stated that God is a 'yachid,' a statement which is absolutely opposed to the Word of God. And the Jews, in blindly following the so-called 'second Moses' have once more given evidence of their old proclivities of perverting the Word of the living God. The Holy Spirit made that serious complaint against them through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, 'For ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God' (Jer. 23:36).

"This is therefore the belief of the true Christian. He does not have three gods, but 'one,' a Scriptural one, which is in Hebrew 'Echad,' and which consists of three personal revelations of God as we shall see in the following Scriptures.

"In the very first verse of the Bible we find two, manifestations of the Godhead. 'In the beginning God created . . , and the Spirit of God moved.' Here we see plainly that God taught us to believe that He is the creator of all things and that His Spirit is moving upon this world of ours to lead, guide and instruct us in the way He wants us to walk. So here in the first chapter of the Bible are two manifestations of God. - Loraine Boettner

Every one "perverts" the "Word" of God to whatever they want. I'm not at home right now, so I'm not going to get into this right now, maybe when I get back. But there's a good Jewish response I found to that claim that the word was changed.

 

[Ingledsva]

How about Angus Rib-eye steak, they melt in your mouth, but they cost like 30USD/lb.

LOL! All this talk about steak makes me want Prime Rib with all the trimmings.


Luckily, the three of us are from different companies, and they all have Yule-time employee dinner parties. Generally this is prime rib. It's what everyone asks for. I'm looking forward to all of those parties. Pig-out time is almost upon us.


*

 

[JM2C]

LOL! All this talk about steak makes me want Prime Rib with all the trimmings.

Luckily, the three of us are from different companies, and they all have Yule-time employee dinner parties. Generally this is prime rib. It's what everyone asks for. I'm looking forward to all of those parties. Pig-out time is almost upon us.

*

I like you better when you challenge me, but you should try the Rib-eye marinated in brown sugar, salt and pepper and grilled it

 

[CG Didymus]

I like you better when you challenge me, but you should try the Rib-eye marinated in brown sugar, salt and pepper and grilled it

I'm a vegetarian, except when I eat salmon, it goes back to hippie, new age, Eastern religion. I can't believe how you people can eat poor defenseless animals. We should love them not eat them, unless they are a fish, then it's okay, because their brains aren't as big. So to kill and eat them is okay. And the same with torturing, chopping and boiling vegetables.

It was only a metaphor about the meat. She's a higher grade. You, because you're a Christian, are chopped liver. But I'm not biased or anything. I just think she's right on and you are not using your brains, because you don't think like us. I would blame the meat eating, but she's a meat eater too. So I don't know how you could have gone so astray and gotten off the true path.

Oh never mind, I just had a hamburger, my new religion is a meat eating form of Krishna-consciousness with a touch of tantric Buddhism. When will you ever see the light and see things my way. I don't understand what's your problem. Why would you even believe you're right?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

If we ignore what our body is telling us what it wants, we're asking for trouble.
In my cycling club days it was unthinkable to go on a long slog without a small rucksack full of stuff including fruit, chocolate, salad sandwiches, jam and cream buns, pork pies, sausage rolls, fruity drinks etc.

Incidentally our Jewish friends don't eat pork and I wonder if that's why there's a higher incidence of Crohn's Disease (inflammation of the gut) among the Jewish population.

Also, Linda McCartney, Davy Jones, Maurice Gibb, Robin Gibb and Donna Summer were all veggies who died young. (The Gibbs both developed colorectal cancer) and now Angelina Jolie has ditched her vegan diet because she's fed up of being ill.

Furthermore a vet wrote in the paper that veggies sometimes bring in their pet dogs and cats with dull coats and listlessness, and it turns out they've been feeding their pets a non-meat diet (pet shops sell it specially), how cruel is that?

Crohn's Disease - Jewish Genetic Disease

 

[CG Didymus]

If we ignore what our body is telling us what it wants, we're asking for trouble.
In my cycling club days it was unthinkable to go on a long slog without a small rucksack full of stuff including fruit, chocolate, salad sandwiches, jam and cream buns, pork pies, sausage rolls, fruity drinks etc.

Incidentally our Jewish friends don't eat pork and I wonder if that's why there's a higher incidence of Crohn's Disease (inflammation of the gut) among the Jewish population...
Crohn's Disease - Jewish Genetic Disease

Who told them they shouldn't eat pork? Some health nut or something? I can't believe some of these crazy fad diets people get into.

 

[s2a]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

"He" isn't there. Never was.

Seems like "explanation" enough.

 

[Ingledsva]

I like you better when you challenge me, but you should try the Rib-eye marinated in brown sugar, salt and pepper and grilled it

Sounds good, but doesn't the brown sugar make it burn on the grill? :grill:



*

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Who told them they shouldn't eat pork? Some health nut or something? I can't believe some of these crazy fad diets people get into.

Maybe there was livestock disease going around at some periods of Old Testament times, so God warned people to lay off pork for a while.
But Jews take it too literally and are STILL laying off it!
By the time Jesus arrived pigs had been given a clean bill of health and people were keeping and raising pigs again.. (Matt 8:30)