Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[SkepticThinker]

Which part? The biblical claim or the model issue?

I guess whichever "newer models" you are talking about.

 

[viole]

A model is (or should be) a pictorial representation of the data. That is independent of the theory that overlays the data. I do not think the newest "forest like" models are sufficient to undermine a very valuable and cherished over arching theory. I gave the best possible example of this occurring at the highest level. The shale fossils simply challenged a model and were buried for decades based on preference. As virulent as the example or any one of hundreds like it is evidence of a massive undercurrent or preference. I don't that model has been held long enough yet to overturn assumptions.

I don't think you have any evidence of it. There is no new model concerning multiple independent origins of life. Not even the slightest hint at it.

This sounds like the opposite of the advice I would have expected. I must have misunderstood.

Why? If there were any remote possibility or scientific evidence/controversy that there were independent origins of life on earth, that is, no common ancestor, I would expect that Answers in Genesis would take the opportunity to vindicate the Bible, no matter how awkwardly. Alas, the only "evidence" they have in this area is still the Bible only, with those absurdities (sorry) concerning evolution only within kinds.

So, nothing new on the western front. No need to search further. They have already, without success.

I know it exists. I am surprised to have difficulty in providing it. Most of my experience comes from decades of debates. Maybe thousands of them. It is impossible to reference 30 seconds from 7 years ago or 1 minute from 3 years ago. I think it would be the work of a few minutes to find what I said if forest evolution was not such a mountains area of study. I am hung up with lab problems again. I will try and get back to this post soon.

I am not surprised that you have difficulty providing it, because it does not exist. There is no model that contemplates life with different independent roots. You can have a bush within a tree (for instance human evolution) but the ultimate root of life is still one. And it cannot be otherwise, if we think about it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t have much story to tell you
God is and not me but He gave me this understanding of His righteousness that is in The Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, that's the thing, you do have a story. I would suppose if you're from Manila that most "Christians" are Catholic, but you sound very Protestant, maybe even from a fundamentalist denomination. So why your particular beliefs about the Bible? Why are they more right than someone else? Going back to our early posts, why do Jews believe that God is one and not three in one? I'm sure they believe that God has given them the right understanding, but it's different. It's funny how we all squabble over meanings of words and verses that were written in an ancient language. So how can anybody be sure what the real meaning was? Or, how much true "inspiration" was taking place? Did God, for sure, reveal the words to the various writers? Or, did they make some assumptions and add some of their own thinking into the verses. Were they the ones that experienced the events or heard the words from God, or were they writing about a prophet or an event that they were told about?

And when it comes down to those words in the Bible, it's not that your beliefs don't make sense and work for you. It's that someone else can believe very different about the same words, and yet... it still works for them. And, they truly believe they can prove what they believe is Biblical. Which makes some of us very skeptical, because they kind of make it all relative. Anyway, I'm sure you have a great story. Even though I question everything you say, I do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[CG Didymus]

Rush is the most cerebral rock band ever.

I go back to the 60's. When I was in High School Dylan got popular. But I liked how the Byrds played his songs. There was Simon and Garfunkel, the Yardbirds, of course the Rolling Stones and Beatles, then later the San Francisco groups. I thought their music was very cerebral, especially when a few thought enhancing substances were added. On the darker side was the Doors. On the lighter, more spiritual side was the Moody Blues. All of them brought me to a place far above the every day world. They led me into a search for a spiritual reality. Unlike you, I'm still searching and still listening to music. I work in construction and those that work under me grew up with 90's Alternative. I like it. They maybe lost and have no real answers, and a lot of them, already dead, but they can be very honest about what they see around them.

What's important about them, I think for you, is how society has failed them. It gives them little hope, and that includes Christianity. I'm sure you're very different from what you used to be since you became a believer. But what happens? You get judged, not from where you came from, but as to why you aren't even better than what you are. Because you believe in Jesus, you're in the spotlight. Your life has to be almost perfect or someone's going to point their finger at you and say, "I told you Christians aren't that good."

So even if you are a shining example of what a good Christian should be, because you're not perfect, people will still find a flaw. But what about all the so-so Christians? The ones that do virtually nothing, but still love to preach at people. They go to church on Sunday and live like the devil the rest of the week. They don't even come close to being a good example of how a Christians should be living. I think that's the worst. Here we are, all looking for the light. They say they have the light. They show us in the Book where it talks about the light, but when we see how they live, we don't see the light. We see a messed up person living a lie... that has nothing we want and nothing we need. And because of that, we question God and his Book and say, "Yeah, it's all a bunch of myths and legends. It's nothing real. Heck, God probably isn't even real."

Anyway, take care. I'm going to get my guitar and try and learn a couple Nirvana songs and maybe a Stone Temple Pilot song. Or, maybe I should read the Bible? Nah, it's so antiquated. What could it possibly teach me? Maybe I'll write a song: Life sucks. There's no meaning in it. Maybe I'll take some drugs.. Oh yeah, yeah. It's dark and lonely. I'm going nowhere, but there's no where to go anyway. So, I'll stay here... Yeah, yeah...[/quote]

 

[Apple Sugar]

With all due respect.

I think we take a lot for granted when we think about God as being intimately and exclusively invested in the human condition.

I think our holy book is a guide that in effect informs us that the creator gave us the tools to work with in a world that operates according to his creation of all things processing what we understand and undertake as reality, and then he left us to our own devices.

And when things got bad he drowned us and started over.

And when it got sorta bad again he sent himself as an itinerant Rabbi to set us straight on the path again. And then he left so that we could do the best we could with what he'd given us.

Kids die because that's how life works. They die because unconscious , and people are born without a conscience, people kill them. They die because disease claims them.

If we think it is God that does that, kills kids, despite the prayers beseeching their salvation from whatever plagues them or threatens their living, then that precludes God being omni-benevolent. Because he willfully ignores mercy and kills kids.

That's why I think God lets us to our own devices. We're created in his image and likeness and if we tap that knowledge = gnosis, we'll survive ourselves. If we don't we deserve to blink out of existence like other species here have.

We're not special because we build churches to the ego that thinks it can contain God in buildings and between the covers of books.
We're prideful because we walk upright, articulate the word, "God" , and that is what makes us believe of all things that exist we matter most to something we can't see.

While we kill each other for a set of rims. Deal dope that kills kids. Shoot the competition because they're trying to take our corner and sling cheaper rock. Then we spit rhymes on our down time, get heard by a producer who brings us in studio and slaps a track down. Releases that on Syrius and in 6 months we're driving a leased Bentley, sporting bling everywhere it'll let us, living in a house that is sustained by the number of units sold, as Billboard becomes our Bible.

We left bodies in the gutter because we never got picked up for murders we committed while slingin on the street. We drop albums that brags about being a straight up hustler, murderer and pimp, and once a year Grammy calls, some thug turned rapper wins and the first thing former street scum does when they hit the dias and get to the mic is thank God!

Why do kids die? Because we kill them.

It's us. While God watches us do what we can with all that he gave us. It's us.

Jesus came to save us from ourselves.

How do we miss that?

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

 

[Ingledsva]

With all due respect.

I think we take a lot for granted when we think about God as being intimately and exclusively invested in the human condition.

I think our holy book is a guide that in effect informs us that the creator gave us the tools to work with in a world that operates according to his creation of all things processing what we understand and undertake as reality, and then he left us to our own devices.

And when things got bad he drowned us and started over.

And when it got sorta bad again he sent himself as an itinerant Rabbi to set us straight on the path again. And then he left so that we could do the best we could with what he'd given us.

Kids die because that's how life works. They die because unconscious , and people are born without a conscience, people kill them. They die because disease claims them.

If we think it is God that does that, kills kids, despite the prayers beseeching their salvation from whatever plagues them or threatens their living, then that precludes God being omni-benevolent. Because he willfully ignores mercy and kills kids.

That's why I think God lets us to our own devices. We're created in his image and likeness and if we tap that knowledge = gnosis, we'll survive ourselves. If we don't we deserve to blink out of existence like other species here have.

We're not special because we build churches to the ego that thinks it can contain God in buildings and between the covers of books.
We're prideful because we walk upright, articulate the word, "God" , and that is what makes us believe of all things that exist we matter most to something we can't see.

While we kill each other for a set of rims. Deal dope that kills kids. Shoot the competition because they're trying to take our corner and sling cheaper rock. Then we spit rhymes on our down time, get heard by a producer who brings us in studio and slaps a track down. Releases that on Syrius and in 6 months we're driving a leased Bentley, sporting bling everywhere it'll let us, living in a house that is sustained by the number of units sold, as Billboard becomes our Bible.

We left bodies in the gutter because we never got picked up for murders we committed while slingin on the street. We drop albums that brags about being a straight up hustler, murderer and pimp, and once a year Grammy calls, some thug turned rapper wins and the first thing former street scum does when they hit the dias and get to the mic is thank God!

Why do kids die? Because we kill them.

It's us. While God watches us do what we can with all that he gave us. It's us.

Jesus came to save us from ourselves.

How do we miss that?

What about the children the Bible says GOD killed?



*

 

[viole]

Rush is the most cerebral rock band ever.

Obviously, considering that one of their best albums is called "Hemispheres". Although I think that the first Tangerine Dream outperforms them when it comes to being "cerebral".

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

And when things got bad he drowned us and started over.

Like Microsoft Windows. Just reboot and everything will be OK. For a while.

And when it got sorta bad again he sent himself as an itinerant Rabbi to set us straight on the path again.

He should have done it before drowning us and all those innocent pets.

And then he left so that we could do the best we could with what he'd given us.

Why did He leave? I think the drowning drama should have shown Him that we would return to our wickedness if left unchecked.

Kids die because that's how life works. They die because unconscious , and people are born without a conscience, people kill them. They die because disease claims them.

Not to count the billions of miscarriages. I doubt that God is pro-life.

If we think it is God that does that, kills kids, despite the prayers beseeching their salvation from whatever plagues them or threatens their living, then that precludes God being omni-benevolent. Because he willfully ignores mercy and kills kids.

There is a much simpler solution to this riddle.

That's why I think God lets us to our own devices. We're created in his image and likeness and if we tap that knowledge = gnosis, we'll survive ourselves. If we don't we deserve to blink out of existence like other species here have.

Yes, but He should know by now that letting us to our own devices does not work. Actually, He should have known that from the beginning. The flood failed and Jesus failed, apparently. So, what's the next magic trick?

I am sure He is disappointed. If I were Him, I would ask Myself why people in My image behave like that. Do I also have these tendencies? I must, if they are in My image. Why do I hate sin and they don't?

We're not special because we build churches to the ego that thinks it can contain God in buildings and between the covers of books.
We're prideful because we walk upright, articulate the word, "God" , and that is what makes us believe of all things that exist we matter most to something we can't see.

I think it is rational to expect that we matter most to Him than anything else. After all, we are in His image, again. With "His image" "I assume He means on the spiritual level, whatever that is, not that He also walks upright.

While we kill each other for a set of rims. Deal dope that kills kids. Shoot the competition because they're trying to take our corner and sling cheaper rock. Then we spit rhymes on our down time, get heard by a producer who brings us in studio and slaps a track down. Releases that on Syrius and in 6 months we're driving a leased Bentley, sporting bling everywhere it'll let us, living in a house that is sustained by the number of units sold, as Billboard becomes our Bible.

Yes, dope kills kids. Cancer and Ebola do that too.

We left bodies in the gutter because we never got picked up for murders we committed while slingin on the street. We drop albums that brags about being a straight up hustler, murderer and pimp, and once a year Grammy calls, some thug turned rapper wins and the first thing former street scum does when they hit the dias and get to the mic is thank God!

Are you in the music business? Or out of it?

Why do kids die? Because we kill them.

Do we think we designed things like Ebola? If we have not, who has?

It's us. While God watches us do what we can with all that he gave us. It's us.

Jesus came to save us from ourselves.

How do we miss that?

Because He failed. Again.

Ciao

- viole

 

[kjw47]

What about the children the Bible says GOD killed?



*

If one reads Gods word from Genesis through Revelation---- they find for the majority of mankind' history= 99% mislead. ( these have love, kindness, giving, morals possibly- they are mislead into partaking off the table of demons)
The wicked parents of those children would have handed down wicked practices and false god worship to their own children--this has been satans #1 tool to this day. So I believe God destroyed the wicked parents and spared the children from living totally wicked lives, and they will get a good chance after the resurrection to live righteously. And gain life everlasting.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hey Apple Sugar, This is quoted off of Viole's post, but it's meant for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Sugar

And when things got bad he drowned us and started over.


Like Microsoft Windows. Just reboot and everything will be OK. For a while.

Quote:
And when it got sorta bad again he sent himself as an itinerant Rabbi to set us straight on the path again.
He should have done it before drowning us and all those innocent pets.

He rebooted and left the virus? He sent himself, in disguise, as a human and still didn't fix the problem? But promised to come back later and do it then?

And what about the animals? Did they sin? Did they deserve to be drowned? Did God curse them because of Adam? Do the young ones go directly to a petting zoo in heaven? I wonder? Do they even have eternal souls? Or do they just live out their lives following their "God-given" instincts until they die and then... that's it? So if Adam wouldn't have sinned, and death not entered the world, all the animals would have lived forever? Yet, they would have been making babies?

I think life and death were always part of the plan. Maybe good vs. evil, light vs. darkness is what reality is. maybe even what God is? Since, supposedly, he made everything, then, I would think, all the bad stuff must have been made by him. So probably, we didn't screw up nothing. We maybe screw ups, but it's how we were made. So I guess we did screw things up... that's exactly what we were supposed to.

 

[adi2d]

If one reads Gods word from Genesis through Revelation---- they find for the majority of mankind' history= 99% mislead. ( these have love, kindness, giving, morals possibly- they are mislead into partaking off the table of demons)
The wicked parents of those children would have handed down wicked practices and false god worship to their own children--this has been satans #1 tool to this day. So I believe God destroyed the wicked parents and spared the children from living totally wicked lives, and they will get a good chance after the resurrection to live righteously. And gain life everlasting.

Do you advocate we should do this with our own children? After all they could be led astray by the world. Better to die young so they be ready for the reserection. Don't be ridiculous

 

[Apple Sugar]

No doubt original sin set us on our way to destruction. Attaching that to humans, making them adjudicated guilty before they're born for the first mistake innocents devoid of intellect, by God's doing, made while in the garden makes everything that happens God's responsibility. Not really ours.

Scriptures say, and this in nutshell, that God predestined the world and all things that happen, and our lives, before the creation of the world, and before he knitted us together in the womb.

Ergo, with "original sin" attached, we're just following the script and playing our part. Free will is a myth. Free choice is too but at least that is something we can feel like is our responsibility.

Someone asked, and I didn't quote them so forgive that omission here in my reply, what about scripture that tells us of all the children God killed?

Well yes, but God's characteristic in the Omni-powers list includes Omni-presence. Even when he left his creation to work itself out per his will, he's still here because he is in all things that exist due to his creating them of himself. It is impossible for him not to be aware of what is, since he's also omniscient.

Were all those children in scripture killed by God?

Yes!

God's all knowingness, (yes, it's a word now ) , created Hell as a future residence for his opposer, his adversary. That he created. That angel, (emissary) falling wasn't a surprise to omniscience. It was part of the plan too. It's all allegory and metaphor. All the stories in the Bible are. Just as Jesus said he spoke in parables so that not all would understand. Meaning gentiles.

God created Hell for satan and his angels but opened it for humans. When God can do that and promise we'll burn there and suffer infinitely, how do we imagine he's not capable of killing kids?

That's why pro-life people who argue abortion is against God's will are deluded. God's word tells us he ripped babies from the womb! And if one accepts original sin as a damned sentence for babies born once they arrive at that age of accountability, which isn't denoted in the scriptures as to what age that exactly is, they're damned until they find their way to God in the form of Jesus and repent of being what God made them to be. Damned!

Ergo, in truth, if it comes to saving souls, abortion clinics are the first church!

They insure souls are saved and can return to Heaven and avoid certain damnation being born in the flesh that is found guilty by God's original decree and for being human.

See, all this is why some people have another name for Christianity; Maltheism.

Because if you really read scripture as verbatim fundamentalist truth, God is malevolent. He examples the identical characteristics afforded in the worst of humanity compounded countless times. The infinite universal sinner.

Like Microsoft Windows. Just reboot and everything will be OK. For a while.

He should have done it before drowning us and all those innocent pets.

Why did He leave? I think the drowning drama should have shown Him that we would return to our wickedness if left unchecked.

Not to count the billions of miscarriages. I doubt that God is pro-life.

There is a much simpler solution to this riddle.

Yes, but He should know by now that letting us to our own devices does not work. Actually, He should have known that from the beginning. The flood failed and Jesus failed, apparently. So, what's the next magic trick?

I am sure He is disappointed. If I were Him, I would ask Myself why people in My image behave like that. Do I also have these tendencies? I must, if they are in My image. Why do I hate sin and they don't?

I think it is rational to expect that we matter most to Him than anything else. After all, we are in His image, again. With "His image" "I assume He means on the spiritual level, whatever that is, not that He also walks upright.

Yes, dope kills kids. Cancer and Ebola do that too.

Are you in the music business? Or out of it?

Do we think we designed things like Ebola? If we have not, who has?

Because He failed. Again.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

What about the children the Bible says GOD killed?

If one reads Gods word from Genesis through Revelation---- they find for the majority of mankind' history= 99% mislead. ( these have love, kindness, giving, morals possibly- they are mislead into partaking off the table of demons)
The wicked parents of those children would have handed down wicked practices and false god worship to their own children--this has been satans #1 tool to this day. So I believe God destroyed the wicked parents and spared the children from living totally wicked lives, and they will get a good chance after the resurrection to live righteously. And gain life everlasting.

We are told in several cases that God is killing the children for the crimes of the adults - that is murder.


We are told the First born of Egypt were killed because Pharaoh wouldn't let the Hebrew go, even though - GOD in this story - tells us that HE ISN'T GOING TO LET PHARAOH LET THEM GO. = Sadistic murder of the innocent, for a crime GOD is guilty of.

We are told he kills King David's baby because of the parent's crimes. = murder.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

No doubt original sin set us on our way to destruction. Attaching that to humans, making them adjudicated guilty before they're bornfor the first mistake innocents devoid of intellect, by God's doing, made while in the garden makes everything that happens God's responsibility. Not really ours.

Scriptures say, and this in nutshell, that God predestined the world and all things that happen, and our lives, before the creation of the world, and before he knitted us together in the womb.

Ergo, with "original sin" attached, we're just following the script and playing our part. Free will is a myth. Free choice is too but at least that is something we can feel like is our responsibility.

Someone asked, and I didn't quote them so forgive that omission here in my reply, what about scripture that tells us of all the children God killed?

Well yes, but God's characteristic in the Omni-powers list includes Omni-presence. Even when he left his creation to work itself out per his will, he's still here because he is in all things that exist due to his creating them of himself. It is impossible for him not to be aware of what is, since he's also omniscient.

Were all those children in scripture killed by God?

Yes!

God's all knowingness, (yes, it's a word now ) , created Hell as a future residence for his opposer, his adversary. That he created. That angel, (emissary) falling wasn't a surprise to omniscience. It was part of the plan too. It's all allegory and metaphor. All the stories in the Bible are. Just as Jesus said he spoke in parables so that not all would understand. Meaning gentiles.

God created Hell for satan and his angels but opened it for humans. When God can do that and promise we'll burn there and suffer infinitely, how do we imagine he's not capable of killing kids?

That's why pro-life people who argue abortion is against God's will are deluded. God's word tells us he ripped babies from the womb! And if one accepts original sin as a damned sentence for babies born once they arrive at that age of accountability, which isn't denoted in the scriptures as to what age that exactly is, they're damned until they find their way to God in the form of Jesus and repent of being what God made them to be. Damned!

Ergo, in truth, if it comes to saving souls, abortion clinics are the first church!

They insure souls are saved and can return to Heaven and avoid certain damnation being born in the flesh that is found guilty by God's original decree and for being human.

See, all this is why some people have another name for Christianity; Maltheism.

Because if you really read scripture as verbatim fundamentalist truth, God is malevolent. He examples the identical characteristics afforded in the worst of humanity compounded countless times. The infinite universal sinner.

The Bible doesn't say we have original sin.


It Says we are born into a world of choice, and death, because of Adam and Chav'vah's original sin.


Satan is not evil in Tanakh, nor is there a Hell there. Later Christians misunderstood Satan's role from YHVH, and they misunderstood what Sheol was, - the place where ALL the dead went to await the end and final Judgment.


Indeed YHVH and the Hebrew did not condemn abortion. In fact there is a verse where, to find out if a wife had been unfaithful while her husband was away, - she was given a bitter drink - that if guilty (pregnant,) caused an abortion.


Indeed, YHVH of the Bible is malevolent, very evil, because he is made up by patriarchal herdsmen, whom gave themselves the "god-right" to own and rape slaves, rape prisoners, own women, murder people that were different, etc.



*

 

[Apple Sugar]

The Bible doesn't say we have original sin.

Of course it does. Genesis chapters 1 through 11. Thanks.

 

[Ingledsva]

If one reads Gods word from Genesis through Revelation---- they find for the majority of mankind' history= 99% mislead. ( these have love, kindness, giving, morals possibly- they are mislead into partaking off the table of demons)
The wicked parents of those children would have handed down wicked practices and false god worship to their own children--this has been satans #1 tool to this day. So I believe God destroyed the wicked parents and spared the children from living totally wicked lives, and they will get a good chance after the resurrection to live righteously. And gain life everlasting.

This is just bull!


It says it is OK to kill the innocent because their parents supposedly sinned!


What happened to the "choice" Christians harp about?


In your God created the earth scenario - why would there even be people on earth then, as Adam and Chav'vah sinned? Off with the heads of their children. No people on earth. (according to the Bible, of course.)


*

 

[Ingledsva]

Of course it does. Genesis chapters 1 through 11. Thanks.

No it doesn't. You need to reread it in the Hebrew.


And you Christians never believe me, - so, - ask one of our Jewish members here!



*

 

[1robin]

just in general, my question is why does he let them suffer?

1. Freewill is a necessity of God's purpose. Love can only exist given freewill.
2. Freewill necessitates the potential for evil and suffering.
3. Suffering juts like pain is an indication something is wrong. If my parents told me X was wrong but protected me from any of the fallout from doing X I would have no reason to believe it was wrong or they were being honest.
4. When man told God to take a hike that we could handle this ourselves he in part did just that. Nature was no longer perfectly controlled for our benefit, the garden of Eden conditions were terminated and natural law left to show us we cannot handle this and maybe some will learn the lesson and seek God.

 

[1robin]

The opening of the can of worms is that it makes genetics diversity that much more likely, so you add to the amounts of evidence instead of taking from it.

I don't see that it does but even if it did, genetic diversity is not an argument against God or anything else. How would having twice as many types of horses or fish make God less likely?

 

[1robin]

I guess whichever "newer models" you are talking about.

I know for a fact the last step I will mention is a common model among at least the secular scientists I have seen commenting on it but searching for a "forest model" of evolution is surprisingly hard. I get thousands of hits for actual forest evolution no matter what key words I used. So let me just clarify what I was saying but I admit I have been unable to demonstrate at least the final phase. Admitting that guarantees every other topic will instantly be dropped and that last step will be the focus of every discussion, but I attempt to be honest even when inconvenient.

1. Darwin or people using his initial ideas constructed a very slow incremental change over time view which produced a tree like structure with few branches at first then gradually increasing in density over time. This one is juts plain wrong. Not only have a I shown that, I have shown instances where the model was held onto even after evidence ruled it out for decades.
2. Next was a bush model. It was faster but still slow and grew in the density of branches very close to it's base. This one has major flaws.
3. The next one was one which shows explosions in density of "branches" so rapid that it no longer has a good resemblance to any plant I have heard of. This one was caused by the punctuated equilibrium ideas primarily.
4. The one I have heard so often as the latest but can't seem to provide proof of it's adoption in large enough quantity is a forest or sometimes a jungle. It is a bunch of trees and plants that do not have any known links between them. Some are bushes some sparse tree like pictorials.