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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
MeMyself said:
Bible god allowing his children to be eternaly tortured accounts more for his evil than anythhing else.

It would take an evil mind to think that is true...

The concept of Hell is Greek not early Christian. I prefer the Jewish concept of the after life. which would have been understood by Jesus and his disciples.

How do you figure those who think this way have evil minds?

I also know that the Jewish afterlife was different then the Christian ideas -

However - eternal torture in hell is what most Christian churches are teaching for not accepting their religion.

It does not take an evil mind - it takes a logical mind.

Supposedly they have free will to choose him or not. - For YHVH to then torture people that utilize such free will, by not believing in him, is illogical, and most certainly makes YHVH look evil, as there is no reason to torture them, as he gave them the right to do so.

*
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
What does free will have to do with God intervening?

Every thing.
He does not allow us choice of action with one hand, and prevent us murdering with the other.



But are you saying that morality is nothing more than social consequences?

Not quite, but it is a result of social intercourse.


Not universal per se, but my take on morality is that it's an expression of values. A given set of values will dictate what the person holding them should and shouldn't do.

Morality needs to be taught, it is not in some way instinctive. Most societies come to similar conclusions about what is acceptable... but very different limits and solutions as to how to deal with those that break the rules. Once British law and American law were like two peas in a pod, today they are drifting further and further apart.

If God - or anyone else - acts in a manner that shows a disregard for humanity, then we can infer that God has a disregard for humanity.

God does not have a disregard for humanity. I would not suppose it to be any different to his regard for any other being in the universe, nor would I expect it to be.


I realize that we could get into a meta-argument of whether God should have regard for humanity, but in most normal contexts, I think it's reasonable enough to say that a disregard for humanity can be considered negative if not evil. In any case, I don't think that there are many believers who, when they say "God is good", mean "God has a disregard for humanity and that's A-OK."

God is not some sort of nanny that kisses us better every time we cry. We are given the opportunity to live our own lives, in what ever way we choose.
Any unfortunate outcomes, both individual and collectively, are down to us.



I'm not sure that the source of morality is relevant here. All that matters is that we have it - however we obtained it - and can measure the actions of you, me, God or anyone else against it.

Morality is not a yardstick. It is not universal in that way. It is something individual societies develop individually, and sign up to.
Different religions and peoples come up with different priorities in ordering their lives. This informs their morality.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Originally Posted by Me Myself
Bible god allowing his children to be eternaly tortured accounts more for his evil than anythhing else.
Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic
It would take an evil mind to think that is true...

The concept of Hell is Greek not early Christian. I prefer the Jewish concept of the after life. which would have been understood by Jesus and his disciples.


How do you figure those who think this way have evil minds?


To accept evil concepts as normal, or as a justification, is evil in itself.


I also know that the Jewish afterlife was different then the Christian ideas -

However - eternal torture in hell is what most Christian churches are teaching for not accepting their religion.

"Some " churches do indeed teach such things, most others including my own, do not... It is very hard to find "anything" that most Christians believe.

It does not take an evil mind - it takes a logical mind.

Logic defines neither good nor evil.
Hitler took a belief in superiority to its logical conclusion.

Supposedly they have free will to choose him or not. - For YHVH to then torture people that utilize such free will, by not believing in him, is illogical, and most certainly makes YHVH look evil, as there is no reason to torture them, as he gave them the right to do so.

If this is what God does, for what ever reason, it would be inconsistent.
However if you believe that not to be the case, like myself, then there is no problem.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Every thing.
He does not allow us choice of action with one hand, and prevent us murdering with the other.
What does this have to do with free will?

Maybe I should back up: IMO, the term "free will" addresses, well, will. Motivation. The term "free will" addresses your ability to choose a course of action, not necessarily whether you're physically possible of carrying it out.

The way I understand the term, preventing someone from murdering while not reaching into his brain and removing his motivation to murder would not interfere with free will at all.

And if your definition of "free will" is violated by doing this, I think it's worth pointing out that our actions are constrained in all sorts of ways. As I've pointed out many times in discussions about the "free will" approach to wriggle out of the Problem of Evil, there are all sorts of things that we're physically prevented from doing: I can kill a person with a knife or a gun, but not with my thoughts or a snowball. If the arrangement of the universe was designed, then it was the designer's choice to make murder (or any act) more difficult than it could have conceivably been. Since we're physically limited beings, it makes absolutely no sense to argue that God doesn't want to impose physical limits on us.

Also, if you're going to argue that God is concerned with preserving free will, then you're implicitly arguing that free will exists... and I think this is less than certain.

Not quite, but it is a result of social intercourse.
But why would this mean that we can't apply morality to God?

For instance, take another social construct: game rules. It would be valid to say that God (or you, or me) is ineligible to play in an under-18 football league. The mere fact that God (presumably) doesn't care and would never try to join a team doesn't mean that he isn't ineligible.

Simply arguing that morality is a human construct doesn't get rid of the question of whether God is moral. In fact, I'd say it does the opposite: if morality is a human construct, then it's completely in our purview to decide what is moral and what isn't.

Morality needs to be taught, it is not in some way instinctive. Most societies come to similar conclusions about what is acceptable... but very different limits and solutions as to how to deal with those that break the rules. Once British law and American law were like two peas in a pod, today they are drifting further and further apart.
I think the law question is a bit of a red herring, and on the whole, virtually every human society agrees on the fundamentals: life is better than death, suffering is bad, etc. The details are generally just that: details.

God does not have a disregard for humanity. I would not suppose it to be any different to his regard for any other being in the universe, nor would I expect it to be.
What suggests to you that God does not have a disregard for humanity?

When I look at things, I see it as completely in agreement with the idea that the universe (or the mind behind the universe) doesn't give a fig about us. What have you seen that makes you reject this?

God is not some sort of nanny that kisses us better every time we cry. We are given the opportunity to live our own lives, in what ever way we choose.
Any unfortunate outcomes, both individual and collectively, are down to us.

This seems like a very non-Christian (or at least unbiblical) worldview:

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[g] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


Morality is not a yardstick. It is not universal in that way. It is something individual societies develop individually, and sign up to.
Different religions and peoples come up with different priorities in ordering their lives. This informs their morality.
A yardstick does not have to be universal to be used. I think the argument you're making here is a side issue. You're addressing the questions of how morality arose and how important it is, not the question of whether we can judge God to be moral or immoral.

"God may be immoral but our morality doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things" does not equal "God is moral."
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
yet to allow evil when you have the power to prevent it isn't?

He obviously does not understand the logical thought process here - or that such logical thought, and reasoning, is not evil.

He brought up Hitler ssuggesting that he took the superior race idea to such logical conclusion.

My question would be - how so?

He had other agendas which included Christian hate against the Jews.

If he took Nordic superiority ideas to conclusion - why did he accept the Japanese? And then kill blonde, blue eyed, Polish people?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
He obviously does not understand the logical thought process here - or that such logical thought, and reasoning, is not evil.

He brought up Hitler ssuggesting that he took the superior race idea to such logical conclusion.

My question would be - how so?

He had other agendas which included Christian hate against the Jews.

If he took Nordic superiority ideas to conclusion - why did he accept the Japanese? And then kill blonde, blue eyed, Polish people?

Read Mein Kampf and get a better Idea of his thoughts.

Logic is neither Good nor evil.
There is no reason to suppose that God uses the same logic as us. he may use neither Euclidean Logic nor Non Euclidean Logic. He may not even be looking at the same facts or outcomes we are.A decision made now, may have an effect a thousand years from now. Unlike us these are factors he may decide to consider.
 

Musty

Active Member
Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

God must be an idiot then if he designed/build a universe in which his supposedly favored creation were predetermined to turn against him. God must also have the mental age of a child is his response to this deliberate choice is to then turn his back on his creation.

However you argue it God is ultimately responsible for his creations because he made them the way they are. You can't make a race of beings, leave them to their own devices and then refuse to accept any responsibility for what happens to them.

At best this makes God a neglectful parent who if he was a human would have his children taken off him by social services. At worse he's a sadist who enjoys creating things that are predetermined to cause mass suffering.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
What does this have to do with free will?

Maybe I should back up: IMO, the term "free will" addresses, well, will. Motivation. The term "free will" addresses your ability to choose a course of action, not necessarily whether you're physically possible of carrying it out.

The way I understand the term, preventing someone from murdering while not reaching into his brain and removing his motivation to murder would not interfere with free will at all.

And if your definition of "free will" is violated by doing this, I think it's worth pointing out that our actions are constrained in all sorts of ways. As I've pointed out many times in discussions about the "free will" approach to wriggle out of the Problem of Evil, there are all sorts of things that we're physically prevented from doing: I can kill a person with a knife or a gun, but not with my thoughts or a snowball. If the arrangement of the universe was designed, then it was the designer's choice to make murder (or any act) more difficult than it could have conceivably been. Since we're physically limited beings, it makes absolutely no sense to argue that God doesn't want to impose physical limits on us.

Also, if you're going to argue that God is concerned with preserving free will, then you're implicitly arguing that free will exists... and I think this is less than certain.

But why would this mean that we can't apply morality to God?

For instance, take another social construct: game rules. It would be valid to say that God (or you, or me) is ineligible to play in an under-18 football league. The mere fact that God (presumably) doesn't care and would never try to join a team doesn't mean that he isn't ineligible.

Simply arguing that morality is a human construct doesn't get rid of the question of whether God is moral. In fact, I'd say it does the opposite: if morality is a human construct, then it's completely in our purview to decide what is moral and what isn't.

I think the law question is a bit of a red herring, and on the whole, virtually every human society agrees on the fundamentals: life is better than death, suffering is bad, etc. The details are generally just that: details.

What suggests to you that God does not have a disregard for humanity?

When I look at things, I see it as completely in agreement with the idea that the universe (or the mind behind the universe) doesn't give a fig about us. What have you seen that makes you reject this?

This seems like a very non-Christian (or at least unbiblical) worldview:

A yardstick does not have to be universal to be used. I think the argument you're making here is a side issue. You're addressing the questions of how morality arose and how important it is, not the question of whether we can judge God to be moral or immoral.

"God may be immoral but our morality doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things" does not equal "God is moral."

All your questions and answers suggest that you believe that God should be subject to some Moral code.

The one you have chosen to apply is a mix of human moralities.

Would you apply the same moral code to a Lion or a snake or even an alien?
Of course not... it would be inappropriate.

It is far more likely that God is amoral .

It is simply unreasonable to impose our view of morality on to God.

From a human view point, and using our code we could assume that God's actions sometimes seem immoral.

This says more about us and the unsuitability of the code, when applied to God, than it does about the nature of God.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
God must be an idiot then if he designed/build a universe in which his supposedly favored creation were predetermined to turn against him. God must also have the mental age of a child is his response to this deliberate choice is to then turn his back on his creation.

There is no reason to believe we are the reason for his creation, any more than the Dodo was.
Ours is a very minor planet in the backwaters of our galaxy.
We might be little more than a doodle in the corner of his plan.
But we have this opportunity to make the most of the world and ourselves.

However you argue it God is ultimately responsible for his creations because he made them the way they are. You can't make a race of beings, leave them to their own devices and then refuse to accept any responsibility for what happens to them.

Are you responsible for the future of every thing you might design or make?
Or even your own children when they have flown the nest?
Of course not.
So why apply that yardstick to God.


At best this makes God a neglectful parent who if he was a human would have his children taken off him by social services. At worse he's a sadist who enjoys creating things that are predetermined to cause mass suffering.

Not at all... He has created this and many other beautiful and living worlds.
Humans have the ability to overcome their baser instincts, and the intelligence to overcome anything this world may present to us... and in the distant future we may evolve sufficiently to do so.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
All men are sinners...and do evil
Should God prevent evil by eliminating the human race?

If human beings are innately evil, then perhaps it was evil for God to have created us in the first place.

... but are we innately evil? I once heard a question that points to an answer to this: is there free will in Heaven?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
All your questions and answers suggest that you believe that God should be subject to some Moral code.
Not "should be"; "is." If morality is entirely a human invention as you're implying, then we're the only authority for what "moral" means. If we have decided that's immoral for someone to knowingly stand by and watch while someone suffers despite being able to help, then we can recognize God's failure to act as immoral.

The one you have chosen to apply is a mix of human moralities.

Would you apply the same moral code to a Lion or a snake or even an alien?
Of course not... it would be inappropriate.

It is far more likely that God is amoral .

It is simply unreasonable to impose our view of morality on to God.

From a human view point, and using our code we could assume that God's actions sometimes seem immoral.

This says more about us and the unsuitability of the code, when applied to God, than it does about the nature of God.
This is a cop-out answer, IMO.

From my perspective, I'm responding to believers who have begun the conversation saying things like "God is good" and "God is love." I wasn't the one to first apply human morality to God. I think it's inconsistent - if not hypocritical - to appeal to God's morality when it reflects well on him and then turn around and claim that he's somehow exempt from morality when it reflects badly on him.

Also, my take on the term "God" is that, in general, it is an anthromorphism of the believer's ideas of things like perfection and virtue. If you're arguing that God has no human characteristics - i.e. that God is not an anthropomorphism - and that God has nothing to do with virtue, then I think your concept of God is not a mainstream god-concept. This is fine in and of itself, but I think you need to recognize that you don't have any more authority than anyone else to speak for God. Even if you believe that God is somehow exempt from morality (a position that I don't think you've adequately explained, but regardless), I think that you should recognize that there of plenty of believers who go around saying things like "God is good" and "God is forgiving" as if morality DOES apply to God. You describe yourself as an "Anglican heretic"; while I don't expect you to hold these beliefs yourself, I would expect you to realize that lots of people actually hold them.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
All men are sinners...and do evil
Should God prevent evil by eliminating the human race?
You did not answer the question.

I am not interested in your false dichotomy, I am curious how you can claim "To accept evil concepts as normal, or as a justification, is evil in itself" whilst ignoring the fact that god allows evil when he has the power to prevent it and somehow that is not evil.

I mean, unless your position is that god is NOT all powerful....
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You did not answer the question.

I am not interested in your false dichotomy, I am curious how you can claim "To accept evil concepts as normal, or as a justification, is evil in itself" whilst ignoring the fact that god allows evil when he has the power to prevent it and somehow that is not evil.

I mean, unless your position is that god is NOT all powerful....

I do not agree that there is any problem with God allowing any thing and everything, Whether we classify it as evil or not.

The power of God is not in question, when or even if he choses to use it, is his choice not ours.

We live in what is a dangerous but beautiful world, the decisions we make in our lives are far reaching. If we chose to live in a dangerous region or amongst dangerous people, or that Killers might chose us to kill, are all the result of human decisions.

I like the world the way it is. I fully understand that God does not act like the cavalry coming to the rescue when a bad choice is made. It is very clear that he does not operate that way.

To blame him for Human actions is ridiculous. I am very glad he does not control us in that way.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To blame him for Human actions is ridiculous.
Why? It seems to me that this is an inescapable implication of a few premises taken together:

- God created the universe
- God had the power to make the universe whatever he wanted
- God could foresee what the universe would be like before he created it
- Knowing that the universe would be the way we see it now, God chose to create it anyhow

Do you disagree with any of these premises?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Not "should be"; "is." If morality is entirely a human invention as you're implying, then we're the only authority for what "moral" means. If we have decided that's immoral for someone to knowingly stand by and watch while someone suffers despite being able to help, then we can recognize God's failure to act as immoral.


This is a cop-out answer, IMO.

From my perspective, I'm responding to believers who have begun the conversation saying things like "God is good" and "God is love." I wasn't the one to first apply human morality to God. I think it's inconsistent - if not hypocritical - to appeal to God's morality when it reflects well on him and then turn around and claim that he's somehow exempt from morality when it reflects badly on him.

Also, my take on the term "God" is that, in general, it is an anthromorphism of the believer's ideas of things like perfection and virtue. If you're arguing that God has no human characteristics - i.e. that God is not an anthropomorphism - and that God has nothing to do with virtue, then I think your concept of God is not a mainstream god-concept. This is fine in and of itself, but I think you need to recognize that you don't have any more authority than anyone else to speak for God. Even if you believe that God is somehow exempt from morality (a position that I don't think you've adequately explained, but regardless), I think that you should recognize that there of plenty of believers who go around saying things like "God is good" and "God is forgiving" as if morality DOES apply to God. You describe yourself as an "Anglican heretic"; while I don't expect you to hold these beliefs yourself, I would expect you to realize that lots of people actually hold them.

If we knew what God had a moral ethic, was one could expect him to hold to it.

if I hold a different moral code to you it is not hypocritical for me to break your code. Moral codes are not transferable in that way.
In the Same way God is not subject to our moral code, however we define it.
However if we dislike what he choses to do, we might well compare it to what we might prefer. But it will not change the situation one iota.

I have no reason to believe any one has the authority to speak for God.

I do believe God loves us, However I think it is highly unlikely he shares any of our moral codes. I think his contact with us is largely through our souls, through the Holy Spirit, and through prayer.

I do not anthropomorphorise God, I do not believe he has any similarity to us whatsoever. I have also said that I expected that God was amoral, which is a necessary feature if he is outside time, and is aware of every future consequence of every action. (both his and ours) this would preclude looking only at the immediate and obvious consequence of what might seem an evil act.

I realise people of all religions hold established views about the nature of God. but I have not indicated that I am speaking for anyone but myself.
My Christian views are well known on this forum and could be described as unitarian in concept but Anglican in worship.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Why? It seems to me that this is an inescapable implication of a few premises taken together:

- God created the universe
- God had the power to make the universe whatever he wanted
- God could foresee what the universe would be like before he created it
- Knowing that the universe would be the way we see it now, God chose to create it anyhow

Do you disagree with any of these premises?

-God set the univers in motion and the rules that would govern its creation.
-God can do any thing he choses to do, or choses not to do.
-God is outside time and sees the whole spectrum of time as a unity. He is not limited to forseeing.
- God knows every thing, he knows the universe will pass though the way it is now, and that at some point it will be as he wants it to be.
-God knows the world and galaxy are unlikely to exist at that point.
-only God knows why the universe was created.

So yes... I disagree with your more limited view.
 
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