Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God created humans in the garden of Eden to be perfect, knowing only good, but dignified us all with free will.The free will to choose to listen to his advice, the freewill to choose to give him our love.
Satan( rebelled), lied to Eve and she rebelled against God and got Adam to rebel as well. When satan told Eve we would become like God, knowing good and bad--he was saying to her that we wouldnt need God to direct our steps if we knew both sides-- this was a direct challenge to Gods authority as sovereign of the universe--all of creation( spirit beings) were looking on to these events.
God could have killed all of them on the spot and none of who ever was born would have been born, the seed would have died with them, instead God let this world go to the extreme to give satan and man every opportunity to see if without him we could lead ourselves to find true happiness knowing both good and bad-- without an iota of a doubt we need God--to know only good was the best way for all created beings. So by letting things go to the extremes it will prove once and for all time that God was right all along--then it can never be brought up again against him. Dont forget either it was kill them and none of us ever born, or let it be proved once for all time. Gods justice says it needed to be proved. so here we are being rushed to the end of this sick system of things. The day and hour are set. The only thing a human needs to learn to do is the will of God now everyday 24/7--- because these are the ones who will gain eternal life in Gods kingdom-Matt 7:21

God isnt interferring too much--he doesnt interfere with free will.

Same question for you that I asked Terrywoodenpic a few pages back: what does free will have to do with the existence of suffering?

IMO, "free will" is a matter of desire... of volition. Not necessarily the ability to act on those desires.

If you're going to argue - for whatever reason - that God doesn't interfere with the actions we choose to carry out, then I'd argue that this is false on its face. There are plenty of actions I want to do but I'm physically incapable of doing. Apparently, God has set up a system where my "free will" is interfered with in countless ways.

Also, is there free will in Heaven?

 

[Koldo]

God created humans in the garden of Eden to be perfect, knowing only good, but dignified us all with free will.The free will to choose to listen to his advice, the freewill to choose to give him our love.
Satan( rebelled), lied to Eve and she rebelled against God and got Adam to rebel as well. When satan told Eve we would become like God, knowing good and bad--he was saying to her that we wouldnt need God to direct our steps if we knew both sides-- this was a direct challenge to Gods authority as sovereign of the universe--all of creation( spirit beings) were looking on to these events.
God could have killed all of them on the spot and none of who ever was born would have been born, the seed would have died with them, instead God let this world go to the extreme to give satan and man every opportunity to see if without him we could lead ourselves to find true happiness knowing both good and bad-- without an iota of a doubt we need God--to know only good was the best way for all created beings. So by letting things go to the extremes it will prove once and for all time that God was right all along--then it can never be brought up again against him. Dont forget either it was kill them and none of us ever born, or let it be proved once for all time. Gods justice says it needed to be proved. so here we are being rushed to the end of this sick system of things. The day and hour are set. The only thing a human needs to learn to do is the will of God now everyday 24/7--- because these are the ones who will gain eternal life in Gods kingdom-Matt 7:21

God isnt interferring too much--he doesnt interfere with free will.

Question: Why doesn't God reveal himself to us? This way we would all know without a shadow of doubt what the will of God is.

 

[Ingledsva]

Same question for you that I asked Terrywoodenpic a few pages back: what does free will have to do with the existence of suffering?

IMO, "free will" is a matter of desire... of volition. Not necessarily the ability to act on those desires.

First let me say I'm not a Christian - and I don't believe in an evil Satan character.

I agree that it is a matter of desire, however I also think it is our actions on those desires.

In nature, ancient Groups tended to give each other what they themselves wanted - as much free will (and space) as possible - until it interferes with the free will of the others in the group. And that unfortunately leads to leaders, laws, and police.

Sometimes we suffer because of our actions, sometimes we suffer because of someone else's actions, and sometimes from nature - forest-fires, falling tree, etc. In the Bible we have the story of Job - so from that perspective God can cause suffering.

If you're going to argue - for whatever reason - that God doesn't interfere with the actions we choose to carry out, then I'd argue that this is false on its face. There are plenty of actions I want to do but I'm physically incapable of doing. Apparently, God has set up a system where my "free will" is interfered with in countless ways.

See above. And what exactly do you mean by "There are plenty of actions I want to do but I'm physically incapable of doing. Apparently, God has set up a system where my "free will" is interfered with..." ??

To me all such "limitations" would be natural, not God.

Also, is there free will in Heaven?

Doesn't look like it from my reading of the Bible.

 

[Ingledsva]

Question: Why doesn't God reveal himself to us? This way we would all know without a shadow of doubt what the will of God is.

Indeed - or more importantly - that it actually exists - and we then should be thinking about that in our actions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First let me say I'm not a Christian - and I don't believe in an evil Satan character.

I agree that it is a matter of desire, however I also think it is our actions on those desires.

So can how can you say that our free will is preserved? Can you act on all your desires? I can't act on all of mine. If free will includes an aspect of action, then the best we can say is that it's preserved sometimes and thwarted other times.

In nature, ancient Groups tended to give each other what they themselves wanted - as much free will (and space) as possible - until it interferes with the free will of the others in the group. And that unfortunately leads to leaders, laws, and police.

Sometimes we suffer because of our actions, sometimes we suffer because of someone else's actions, and sometimes from nature - forest-fires, falling tree, etc. In the Bible we have the story of Job - so from that perspective God can cause suffering.

Right - in Job, IMO, we have God acknowledging that he causes suffering, but the book doesn't really answer the question of why. Instead, God berates Job for even daring to ask.

See above. And what exactly do you mean by "There are plenty of actions I want to do but I'm physically incapable of doing. Apparently, God has set up a system where my "free will" is interfered with..." ??

To me all such "limitations" would be natural, not God.

So in your view, God is not ultimately responsible for the universe?

As for what I mean, maybe an example would help:

- Mr. A wants to levitate with the power of his mind.
- Mr. B wants to stab someone to death.

One of these is physically possible, the other is not. If it would be "interference" to have arranged things so that human skin is impervious to knives, for instance, why isn't it "interference" for God to arrange things so that we can't levitate?

Doesn't look like it from my reading of the Bible.

So there you go: if that's the case, then God isn't actually concerned with preserving free will.

 

[kjw47]

Same question for you that I asked Terrywoodenpic a few pages back: what does free will have to do with the existence of suffering?

IMO, "free will" is a matter of desire... of volition. Not necessarily the ability to act on those desires.

If you're going to argue - for whatever reason - that God doesn't interfere with the actions we choose to carry out, then I'd argue that this is false on its face. There are plenty of actions I want to do but I'm physically incapable of doing. Apparently, God has set up a system where my "free will" is interfered with in countless ways.

Also, is there free will in Heaven?

Knowing good and bad brought the suffering into the picture.
Is it your conscience that prevents you from acting on certain actions?
Yes there is free will in heaven-- 1/3 of the angels followed satan.

 

[kjw47]

Question: Why doesn't God reveal himself to us? This way we would all know without a shadow of doubt what the will of God is.

His written word has shown us his will-- one must live by every utterance of Gods Jesus taught-- He has revealed himself to us through his written word and his son. Those who live to do the Fathers will are hated by the world, the world hates truth--- they went as far as murdering Jesus,apostles, and all the christians back then because they( world) hated truth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Knowing good and bad brought the suffering into the picture.

Was it "knowing good and bad" that caused us to use the same tube to breathe and ingest food? A huge amount of suffering has been caused by the fact that we can die almost immediately just from eating carelessly. How is knowledge of good and evil responsible for that sort of suffering?

Is it your conscience that prevents you from acting on certain actions?

Acting on actions? Do you mean acting on ideas?

Not entirely. It's also that I'm physically incapable of acting on certain ideas.

Yes there is free will in heaven-- 1/3 of the angels followed satan.

Okay... now, is there suffering in Heaven?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

His written word has shown us his will-- one must live by every utterance of Gods Jesus taught-- He has revealed himself to us through his written word and his son. Those who live to do the Fathers will are hated by the world, the world hates truth--- they went as far as murdering Jesus,apostles, and all the christians back then because they( world) hated truth.

If having martyrs is a sign of truth and murdering a sign of falsehood, what should we make of the murder of people like Giordano Bruno and Michael Servetus in the name of Christianity?

 

[kjw47]

Actually it does not say Satan in Genesis.

It is "nachash" - and the Bible say this one, will to the end of it's life, crawl on it's belly and taste the dust. That equals a serpent/snake - not Satan.

A study of Nachash is actually quite interesting as the word means a Sorcerer, and to Hiss an incantation, to divine, enchant, etc.

Some ancient historians say the Hebrew are from India.

In India, a related word "Naga" means a Serpent Sorcerer. Interesting.

Satan means-- resistor-- devil means-- slanderer. rev 12:9--rev 20:2 says the dragon( satan) was the original serpent.) i really doubt that satan was the snake, but that it was his voice talking through the snake like a ventriliquist. I could be wrong about the last sentence, it just seems logical.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Satan means-- resistor-- devil means-- slanderer. rev 12:9--rev 20:2 says the dragon( satan) was the original serpent.) i really doubt that satan was the snake, but that it was his voice talking through the snake like a ventriliquist. I could be wrong about the last sentence, it just seems logical.

So... in a story about how a man made from dirt and a woman made from a rib are convinced to eat a magic fruit by a talking snake and are punished for this by having their immortality revoked, you think that assuming that the talking snake was possessed by the Devil makes it "logical"? Interesting.

 

[kjw47]

So... in a story about how a man made from dirt and a woman made from a rib are convinced to eat a magic fruit by a talking snake and are punished for this by having their immortality revoked, you think that assuming that the talking snake was possessed by the Devil makes it "logical"? Interesting.

Actually humans are ashe,dust-water--that is how great Gods science is.
It wasnt a magic fruit, it was a principle of free will instead of us being zombie robots--When God said lets make man in our image--it wasnt talking about 2 arms 2 legs,etc--- it was talking about being able to think,reason,love,feel.
God warned both of them that they would die if they rebelled. Think about it--- created perfect, to know only good, to live forever--- they had it made in the shade, handed to them on a silver platter. They deserve death for what they did. 6038 years of human suffering and death is what there single action brought to all of their offspring. its almost done.

 

[sojourner]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

preordination is a huge cop-out when it comes to theodicy. The aim of theology isn't ultimately to make us comfortable. It's to unsettle us. Death is difficult, and cannot be assuaged by formulaic belief.

 

[Ingledsva]

Satan means-- resistor-- devil means-- slanderer. rev 12:9--rev 20:2 says the dragon( satan) was the original serpent.) i really doubt that satan was the snake, but that it was his voice talking through the snake like a ventriliquist. I could be wrong about the last sentence, it just seems logical.

Satan is the Tester - Accuser.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

Job 1:8 And said YHVH to Satan, do put your regard upon my servant Job for there is none like him on the earth, a man pious and upright, fearing Elohiym and turning from wickedness. (test him)

Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led forth into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tested/proved by the devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Ingledsva]

So can how can you say that our free will is preserved? Can you act on all your desires? I can't act on all of mine. If free will includes an aspect of action, then the best we can say is that it's preserved sometimes and thwarted other times.


Right - in Job, IMO, we have God acknowledging that he causes suffering, but the book doesn't really answer the question of why. Instead, God berates Job for even daring to ask.



So in your view, God is not ultimately responsible for the universe?

As for what I mean, maybe an example would help:

- Mr. A wants to levitate with the power of his mind.
- Mr. B wants to stab someone to death.

One of these is physically possible, the other is not. If it would be "interference" to have arranged things so that human skin is impervious to knives, for instance, why isn't it "interference" for God to arrange things so that we can't levitate?


So there you go: if that's the case, then God isn't actually concerned with preserving free will.

As I said, I don't believe in the religions of Abraham, or their God.

People have free will to do anything they want within nature. They can choose to rape and murder - and perhaps reap the consequences, - or choose to be a saint, - but gravity isn't going to let them levitate (without help, LOL. )

 

[Ingledsva]

His written word has shown us his will-- one must live by every utterance of Gods Jesus taught-- He has revealed himself to us through his written word and his son. Those who live to do the Fathers will are hated by the world, the world hates truth--- they went as far as murdering Jesus,apostles, and all the christians back then because they( world) hated truth.

Most religions out there have a "written Word."

Should we believe without proof that they are relaying God's word?

 

[Koldo]

His written word has shown us his will-- one must live by every utterance of Gods Jesus taught-- He has revealed himself to us through his written word and his son. Those who live to do the Fathers will are hated by the world, the world hates truth--- they went as far as murdering Jesus,apostles, and all the christians back then because they( world) hated truth.

That's a bad method of choice.
God spoke directly to Moses, and Moses had no doubt it was God talking.
Why doesn't God speak directly to us all then?

There are many different religions out there. If God exists and talked to us directly, we would have no doubt who is the true god.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God talks directly to very many people.
Most of them are in asylums.

There was a time when hearing voices and seeing visions was a sign from God.

 

[Koldo]

God talks directly to very many people.
Most of them are in asylums.

There was a time when hearing voices and seeing visions was a sign from God.

It still is, depending on what you hear and how you behave.

 

[seeking4truth]

There are many different religions out there. If God exists and talked to us directly, we would have no doubt who is the true god.

There are thousands of people talking in this world that you cannot understand or hear and they are human like you. They exist. God is not human. In order to hear and understand Him you must develop your spiritual senses.
Just as you cannot receive radio transmissions without tuning in so you cannot receive spiritual transmissions until you do, except by chance.