Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Falvlun]

Her best bet is to recognise the position and move on....

Um.... isn't that what we are doing about God, and you are trying to talk us out of by telling us that we are ungrateful?

 

[Copernicus]

Terry, I see 9-10ths and Falvlun as attacking the consistency of thought by traditional Christians. It is special pleading to argue that helping out others is good only when humans do it, not when God does it. If God helps those who help themselves, then why shouldn't we "help" others by leaving them to help themselves? The attack here is not on God or God's behavior, but on the consistency of thought in the minds of believers.

 

[Koldo]

You sound ungrateful for life as a human on earth.

So if i see a flaw in design, am i ungrateful ?

Would you prefer to only have "Kryptonite" to worry about.

Yes, i would. Why do you ask?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I am not sure why the Atheists on this tread are so exercised By the Nature of God, when they do not believe in him.
I understand exactly what they are trying to say, but it does not reflect the nature of God that a Christian understands, or what we expect from him.

An Atheist can not reasonably expect anything from a being that does not exist. Any thing an Atheist says on the matter, can only be to try to put words in Believers mouths.
We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.

Unless we can progress to new ground I will not repeat my self endlessly.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not sure why the Atheists on this tread are so exercised By the Nature of God, when they do not believe in him.

Because we believe in Theism, as in that it exists and is used as justification for decisions that affect us, either directly or indirectly.

I understand exactly what they are trying to say, but it does not reflect the nature of God that a Christian understands, or what we expect from him.

Actually, I don't think there is much in the way of an unified understanding of God, even if we restrict our analysis to a specific denomination.

Several understandings are in fact unhealthy, due to varying degrees of inherent flaws and circunstantial inadequacy. And since some people give their understandings of God so much weight in their decision-making and emotional posturing, it is only fair to treat it as an important subject matter.

We do not have to believe in it to discuss it, no more than we would need for, say, Marxism or Supply-side economics.

An Atheist can not reasonably expect anything from a being that does not exist.

We don't. At least, I don't think we do in any meaningful quantity.

Any thing an Atheist says on the matter, can only be to try to put words in Believers mouths.

Which is probably a good thing. Shouldn't we atheists try and put ourselves in the shoes of Theists and attempt to see their reasons?

 

[Koldo]

I am not sure why the Atheists on this tread are so exercised By the Nature of God, when they do not believe in him.
I understand exactly what they are trying to say, but it does not reflect the nature of God that a Christian understands, or what we expect from him.

An Atheist can not reasonably expect anything from a being that does not exist. Any thing an Atheist says on the matter, can only be to try to put words in Believers mouths.
We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.

Unless we can progress to new ground I will not repeat my self endlessly.

When an atheist comes this sort of topic, he has typically two options. Either to dismiss the god, which wouldn't bring about any meaningful debate. Or to consider that it exists for the sake of debate showing the shortcommings of this god and the contradictions behind its concept.

Interestingly, if you say two statements, we might be able to infer that you actually uttered a third statement without you ever actually saying this third statement with your mouth. That's what you call 'putting words in the mouth of believers', but that is known by another name: logical reasoning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not sure why the Atheists on this tread are so exercised By the Nature of God, when they do not believe in him.
I understand exactly what they are trying to say, but it does not reflect the nature of God that a Christian understands, or what we expect from him.

An Atheist can not reasonably expect anything from a being that does not exist. Any thing an Atheist says on the matter, can only be to try to put words in Believers mouths.
We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.

Unless we can progress to new ground I will not repeat my self endlessly.

Speaking for myself, since I generally take "God" to mean a personificaton of the speaker's concept of virtue, when we talk about what God will and won't do, I take this as a discussion of the moral example we're meant to follow. When we talk about God's morality, we're really talking about human morality.

Also, I'm someone who can spend al day debating whether the USS Enterprise or a Star Destroyer would win in a fight. I don't see the non-existence of a thing as an obstacle to talking about it.

But I do see an interesting progression in this thread. The way I see it, your argument has gone from (quotes paraphrased, obviously) "God is loving and has a plan for us" to "God is amoral" to "God may be immoral, but he doesn't have to care" to now "God may be immoral, but this shouldn't matter to atheists."

I think this attempt to switch the discussion from a debate about the morality of God to a meta-debate about the debate is a sign that you've run out of arguments.

And I think it's a bit strange for you to complain that we're going over the samr ground, since from where I see it, a big part of our inability to move onto anything new is your straw-manning of my arguments.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Speaking for myself, since I generally take "God" to mean a personificaton of the speaker's concept of virtue, when we talk about what God will and won't do, I take this as a discussion of the moral example we're meant to follow. When we talk about God's morality, we're really talking about human morality.

Then we start the dance on the wrong foot...
I do not see God as the personification of anything. ( previously explained)
Nor do I accept that the OP question is meaningful in relation to God

Also, I'm someone who can spend al day debating whether the USS Enterprise or a Star Destroyer would win in a fight. I don't see the non-existence of a thing as an obstacle to talking about it.

And that black is white.

But I do see an interesting progression in this thread. The way I see it, your argument has gone from (quotes paraphrased, obviously) "God is loving and has a plan for us" to "God is amoral" to "God may be immoral, but he doesn't have to care" to now "God may be immoral, but this shouldn't matter to atheists."

I have covered all those aspects and depending on the viewpoint they can have meaning. But "My" stated view is that God is Amoral.

I think this attempt to switch the discussion from a debate about the morality of God to a meta-debate about the debate is a sign that you've run out of arguments.

The debate started as "Why does my God allow children to die" Not the morality of God... Which I have been quite happy to conclude, by saying he is Amoral

I ran out of other arguments to counter quite a while ago.

And I think it's a bit strange for you to complain that we're going over the samr ground, since from where I see it, a big part of our inability to move onto anything new is your straw-manning of my arguments.

I accept your arguments as strawmen.

So far I have not seen a logical argument from you to counter. You state things that are supremely irrelevant to the nature of God.

You can not discuss the Morals of an Amoral God.

 

[kjw47]

My friend, what you have just said is disgusting. Just for the record are you saying if we allowed God into the schools those children would still be alive??

This world is so far removed from God and his will its disgusting--Jesus taught--satan is the ruler of this world--- the sickness is handed down from parent to child as it has always been. 3 things God detests--violence,immorality. the occult-- is what is shoved down human throats from their childhood on up. 99% of all religions are false. 100% of all govts are satans. music,tv,the media--all under satans control.--that is why Jesus taught that his followers would be hated, because they are no part of this world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then we start the dance on the wrong foot...
I do not see God as the personification of anything. ( previously explained)
Nor do I accept that the OP question is meaningful in relation to God

I'm not participating in this discussion only for your benefit. At this point, my reasons for continuing are more about the lurkers who are reading the thread but not posting.

I have covered all those aspects and depending on the viewpoint they can have meaning. But "My" stated view is that God is Amoral.

And your argument has also been that I should view God as immoral, despite your assertion elsewhere that I'm the author of my own morality.

The debate started as "Why does my God allow children to die" Not the morality of God... Which I have been quite happy to conclude, by saying he is Amoral

The other half of that was "... is he evil?" It's been about the morality of God from the start.

I ran out of other arguments to counter quite a while ago.

There's several of mine that you still haven't addressed.

I accept your arguments as strawmen.

Do you understand what "straw man" means? This sentence suggests you don't.

So far I have not seen a logical argument from you to counter. You state things that are supremely irrelevant to the nature of God.

You can not discuss the Morals of an Amoral God.

And your pronouncements aren't automatically authoritative. If you want to argue for the amorality of God, then provide proper justification for the claim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

Funny... I saw a thing on Facebook about this:

http://athenagray.tumblr.com/post/42820003115

 

[jtartar]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Lady B,
There is ONE reason why children die!!!
That reason is because of the ruler of this world. Contrary to what many people believe it is not God who is ruling the world, it is Satan, The Devil.
The term Pansatanism actually describes this; it means that the conditions of this world are a manisfestation of the personality of ruler of the world, Satan, 2Cor 4:3,4, John 14:33, 16:11, 1John 5:18,19, Rev 12:9.
When Adam and Eve decided to rebell against God, He allowed a period of time to see if following Satan could bring about good conditions. God sent His son to provide a ransom for all who do not want to follow Satan, Matt 20:28, 1Tim 2:4-6, John 3:16.
The time that God gave Satan has almost run out. Jesus' disciples asked him what would be the sign that the end was about to take place, Matt 24:3. Then Jesus gave many conditions that would be taking place all in one generation, Matt 24:33,34. Notice Matt 24:29,30, where Jesus actually answers the exact question that his discilpes asked him. Jesus' sign would be seen in heaven immediately after the tribulation of those days. This tribulation is the destruction of Babylon the Great, mentioned at Revelation, chapters 17& 18. When these things happen it will be very close to the setting up of the Thousand Year Judgement Day, Rev 20:4-6.
THere will be a short lull in the tribulation, and then Satan and his cohorts will attack true religion, which will bring on Armageddon, Rev 16:16, 20:11-21.
We are very close to the first tribulation!!! It is vital for all who want to live to find the true religion before that time, 1Cor 8:5-7, Eph 4:4-6, John 17:3, Deut 30:19,20.
This teaching is one of the main reasons that Jesus came to earth, John 18:36,37, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13, Joel 2:32.

 

[1robin]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

This can be seen by the skyrocketing rates in teen pregnancy, gang violence, and school shootings occur just after God was driven out of the once world leading U S education system

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This can be seen by the skyrocketing rates in teen pregnancy, gang violence, and school shootings occur just after God was driven out of the once world leading U S education system

Yes, cut funding to schools and restrict teacher-led prayer and when school performance goes down, it's because of the prayer. :sarcastic

I suppose you haven't seen that Facebook graphic of school shootings vs. church shootings, have you? (look up the page a few posts if you'd like).

Gang violence skyrocketed with the advent of crack, and has generally been going down since crack hit its peak in the 90s. No prayer (or lack thereof) involved in the trends in gangs.

Teen pregnancy... well, I think there's a pretty good correlation between teen pregnancy rates and the spread of abstinence only sex ed programs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lady B,
There is ONE reason why children die!!!
That reason is because of the ruler of this world. Contrary to what many people believe it is not God who is ruling the world, it is Satan, The Devil.

So Satan has thwarted the will of God?

The time that God gave Satan has almost run out.

Oh... wait. You mean that God gave the world to Satan? So what Satan does is in accordance with the will of God?

I'm confused. Which is it? Does God allow evil, or is God unable to prevent evil?

 

[1robin]

Yes, cut funding to schools and restrict teacher-led prayer and when school performance goes down, it's because of the prayer.

This is truly strange. We spend over 800 billion on education. The next highest amount is 122 Billion. Newton and Tesla plus a thousand others did things that we can't quite do today and they had slide rules.
We’ve put together this info graphic that compares the United States’ education spend and performance versus eleven countries. The U.S. is the clear leader in total annual spending, but ranks 9th in Science performance and 10th in Math.
http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
When I went to elementary school I was an average student. One year our school burned down. We met in a 100 year old no air conditioned shack sort of thing. However they hired a hard core drill instructor type teacher who led us in prayer and the pledge of allegiance every day. Not one kid made less than a B in his class and I made almost straight 100's. Discipline, God, and traditional moral values made this country the greatest in history and our parents the greatest generation. What they built with blood, sweat, and faith, liberalism and moral relativism has laid in ashes beneath a debt we will never pay off.

I suppose you haven't seen that Facebook graphic of school shootings vs. church shootings, have you? (look up the page a few posts if you'd like).

I have not seen a Facebook anything. I am on a DOD server and can't see Facebook and do not get my data from there anyway.

Gang violence skyrocketed with the advent of crack, and has generally been going down since crack hit its peak in the 90s. No prayer (or lack thereof) involved in the trends in gangs.

I did not mean gang violence in general. I meant gang activity is schools.

Teen pregnancy... well, I think there's a pretty good correlation between teen pregnancy rates and the spread of abstinence only sex ed programs.

Ok now you have left the building of reason. To claim that teaching kids not to have sex increases pregnancy is about the silliest thing possible. They still have the same access to contraception and the same resistance to using it with or without those classes. I got an idea along your lines of reasoning. Let's simply force them to have sex and then nobody will get pregnant. It is the same weird reasoning of atheist's claims that a book that says do not murder actually has increased murder rates. Removing the moral aspect of sex is the exact same thing as Stalin’s denial of religion and thereby any foundation for the sanctity of life. Sure kill 20 million people, they are only evolutionary biological anomalies and have no intrinsic worth without God. Why not?

 

[Lady B]

Hello again, sorry I have been away a while, I see this thread is moving along nicely, many good posts and content. I do not agree in some of the reasoning, However it is good to see the various perspectives.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When I went to elementary school I was an average student. One year our school burned down. We met in a 100 year old no air conditioned shack sort of thing. However they hired a hard core drill instructor type teacher who led us in prayer and the pledge of allegiance every day. Not one kid made less than a B in his class and I made almost straight 100's.

Good for you.

The one and only year I had prayer in school was grade 3 (in Ontario, the Lord's Prayer was optional at the discretion of the teacher until the mid-80s - after that, they got rid of it across the board). My elementary school was built in the 50s and my high school in the 60s, but I still had an excellent education with excellent teachers, and barely a mention of God.

Since you did well in a "godful" environment and I did well in a godless one, I guess the lesson we can get from this is that God is irrelevant to the quality of an education.

I have not seen a Facebook anything. I am on a DOD server and can't see Facebook and do not get my data from there anyway.

Nothing big - it just points out that in the US in 2011, there were 5 school shootings and 115 church shootings. If you doubt the numbers, I'm sure we can find corroboration.

I did not mean gang violence in general. I meant gang activity is schools.

Ah. It seems that the FBI has a different hypothesis than you do about trends in gang violence in schools:

Gang activity at schools is rising, in part, because gangs are using middle schools and high schools as venues for recruitment and drug distribution. Law enforcement agencies in several jurisdictions in eastern states report that gangs are directing teenage members who had dropped out of school to reenroll, primarily to recruit new members and sell drugs.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/national-gang-threat-assessment-2009-pdf

... but I'm sure that you have much more expertise in figuring out the causes of crime than they do. :sarcastic

Ok now you have left the building of reason. To claim that teaching kids not to have sex increases pregnancy is about the silliest thing possible. They still have the same access to contraception and the same resistance to using it with or without those classes.

Actually, the problems arise because they're not taught the importance of contraception or how to use it properly, and false ideas they might have of what causes and prevents pregnancy don't get corrected because all they get taught is "don't have sex."

I got an idea along your lines of reasoning. Let's simply force them to have sex and then nobody will get pregnant. It is the same weird reasoning of atheist's claims that a book that says do not murder actually has increased murder rates.

I never said that the Bible has increased murder rates. I said that it's irrelevant. The Bible has quite a bit of immorality in it (including plenty of murder sanctioned by the God you say tells people not to murder), but in my experience, people's morality doesn't seem to be dependent on their religion; instead, I think most people use the Bible as an echo chamber or a mirror: they use it to reinforce the ideas of good and bad that they already have.

 

[CG Didymus]

Discipline, God, and traditional moral values made this country the greatest in history and our parents the greatest generation. What they built with blood, sweat, and faith, liberalism and moral relativism has laid in ashes beneath a debt we will never pay off.

Blood and sweat for sure. Blacks sweating and bleeding, Chinese, Mexicans and probably every new immigrant that came over, bleeding, sweating--each new religious group coming over looking for a place to practice their beliefs without getting tortured and killed--it took liberal ideas and a little moral relativism to get us all melted down into some kind of multicultural mix didn't it? But, one more question, weren't there people living here before all these "good" moral Christians came over and built this country? My school never told what happened to those people. I wonder if they gave any blood and sweat?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But, one more question, weren't there people living here before all these "good" moral Christians came over and built this country? My school never told what happened to those people. I wonder if they gave any blood and sweat?

Just tears.

Trail of Tears - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Praise God! Society was wonderful back when they had prayer in schools, wasn't it?